PTI's desperate campaign for "DAWN" poll

[Secur]

They actually raided the office, twice.
Rangers raid Sunni Tehreek office again, confiscate records - The Express Tribune
They also confiscated records - I'm sure the records weren't just lying nearby their HQ.

Fair enough, my mistake. The last time it wasn't anything such.

That still doesn't justify what was found in 90. By this logic if weapons are found with the Sunni Tehreek, for example, they can simply say ''go raid the Taliban you will find something worse'' and be absolved of their guilt.

It doesn't, might be productive though to act fairly against all and not majorly target the fourth biggest (and largest party of urban Sindh) political party-

They are to be arrested. That's how Law Enforcement works.

And then tortured and thrown out of vehicles by "saada libas" personnel somewhere? I don't think so. There have been case heard at Sindh high court on the same but the justice system of this country is limited to targeting the weak out there.

Do you have proof for any of these allegations?

MQM's propaganda (as seen here) and ethnic victimization is what won them the NA 246 election.

MQM worker was tortured to death: Doctors - The Express Tribune
KARACHI: Before the cause of death of the Muttahida Qaumi Movement’s activist, Ajmal Baig, could have been dragged on amid accusations and lack of evidence, the postmortem report issued on Tuesday confirmed that Baig died due to the injuries he suffered from being tortured.

The victim’s postmortem was carried out at the Karachi Civil Hospital by Dr Farhat Mirza and Dr Qarar Abbasi under the presence of the judicial magistrate.

MQM worker died in police custody laid to rest | Abb Takk News
KARACHI: MQM worker Waseem Dehalvi, who was killed due to alleged torture in police custody, has been buried, while MQM staged protest against the death of its worker in police custody, whereas MQM chief Altaf Hussain, expressing regret over the incident, has appealed his workers to remain peaceful.

Confessional statement made after torture: Wife of MQM worker
Najma Tahir, wife of the suspect, petitioned the court against the Sindh home secretary, IG police, SSP Rao Anwar and others. The petitioner said law enforcers had arrested him near MukkaChowk in the surroundings of Azizabad on February 24. Later, however, SSP Rao said that they had arrested her husband on April 30. However, Tahir’s wife alleged that her husband was subjected to torture in custody and forced to make a confessional statement before the media, during Anwar’s press conference.

SHC seeks police record, medical report of MQM worker ‘torture’
KARACHI: The Sindh High Court on Tuesday heard a petition against alleged police torture on Muttahida Qaumi Movement worker, Fahad Aziz, and directed authorities to provide security to his family members, SAMAA reported.The petition was filed by MQM’s central leader Dr. Farooq Sattar on Monday. In this petition, it was stated that the party man was arrested over ‘baseless’ charges without his nomination in any FIR and was ‘brutally’ tortured in police custody.

SUCH TV - Karachi: MQM worker dies after alleged police torture
KARACHI: Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) worker Muhammad Adil, who was brought to hospital in allegedly critical condition, has passed away at Abbasi Shaaeed Hospital.

MQM leader Haider Abbas Rizvi told media that Adil was handed over to his brother in "critical condition." Adil’s eyes were tied and he was lying on the ground, he claimed. Rizvi further said that the party worker received severe head injuries and doctors declared him brain-dead. On the another occasion, MQM leader Asif Hasnain said that Muhammad Adil was a worker from Sector 136, North Karachi. He told that the law enforcement agencies had detained Adil two days ago and allegedly tortured him.

MQM worker Wasim Aziz Bhatti Died In Jail
Karachi: Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM)’s worker who was under the custody of police at the Aziz Bhatti police station in Karachi has died today. According to the sources, the family of the late accused has claimed that Wasim Aziz died due to the violence of police as murder case has been filed against the sub-inspector and three other police officials by Wasim’s family. Although, an autopsy has been completed of late Wasim AzizBhatti in which it is said that suspect died due to head injury as his body had torture marks and his head had deep cuts.

Karachi shut down over MQM worker’s killing | GulfNews.com
Karachi: Pakistan’s largest city and financial hub on Thursday remained completely shut as a powerful political party mourned the death of one of its workers, whose tortured body was found dumped on Wednesday.

Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM), which strongly holds the urban constituencies of southern Pakistan, called for the strike after Mohammad Sohail, one of its office bearers, was found dead in the Mawach Goth area in western Karachi.

HRCP demands probe into killings of MQM workers | Pakistan Press Foundation (PPF)Pakistan Press Foundation (PPF)
LAHORE: The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) has noted with serious concern that while the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) continues to voice concerns about abduction, torture and extra-judicial killings of its workers, steps have not been taken to investigate the charges.

In a statement on Monday, HRCP Chairperson Zohra Yusuf said: “The commission has learned that bodies of two MQM workers were found in the Korangi area late last week. Both men had been missing for over a month and their bodies showed torture marks.”

And since 1992 on wards, most Urdu speakers have felt a compelling need to support MQM, it isn't just propaganda, the discrimination, bias and selective action has been duly noted.

The party in question has done everything to try and defend its criminals - even then, I support the MQM's right to exist as a mainstream political party - but for that, they must abandon the criminals, and that may mean abandoning Altaf Hussain.

It has done what every other party with a militant wing does, there's nothing new or unique here.

The basis of this current operation is perfectly real.

Just like the basis of the systematic targeting of a single political party and an ethnic group was, back then.

The conflict between the MQM and the Pakistani state dates back to 1992's "Operation Clean-up," a government- initiated military operation, ostensibly aimed at cracking down on all "terrorist" and "criminal" elements in Sind, but which effectively became a witch hunt against the MQM. In its attempts to exterminate the militant core of the MQM, the state resorted to a calculated policy of collective punishment — massive pre-dawn "siege-and-search" operations and house-to-house searches that led to the illegal arrest and detentions of over 75,000 men between the ages of 12 and 50. Most of these men, often innocent relatives or friends of MQM activists, were blindfolded with their own shirts, paraded down to the local police station, and tortured or beaten until their families paid an extraction fee for their release. The state's counterinsurgency measures also included outright murder — in the daily newspaper reports of the deaths of MQM militants, "killed in police encounters" became an accepted euphemism for blatant extra-judicial killings. As Karachi's citizens endured conditions of unprecedented terror and harassment, the growing economic crisis was aggravated by MQM's calls for general strikes — 25 in 1995 alone — paralyzing the city at a cost of one billion rupees a day.
The Battlefields of Karachi: Ethnicity, Violence and the State

That was army back then, similar is the story today.

Since when do the Sunni Tehreek, ASWJ, PPP, PAC, ANP, the Lyari Gangs, the Taliban and all the petty criminals in Karachi belong to the same ethnic group as MQM? They don't. Then how exactly is one ethnic group being targeted?

Majorly being the operative word here. The absolute focus of law enforcers (like back then) is on MQM, as if most criminals are found in a single political party.

According to your source, some rumors were spread in the media, which were denied by the ISPR.
They clarified their stance and refuted the rumors. They did their job. Asif Haroon should have been investigated and tried, yes. But it didn't happen under those times' leadership. Yes, there should be more accountability in the Army. Today's leadership is already working to establish it.

But do you realize that none of what you said in that entire wall of text absolves the MQM of its crimes? None of it. You're trying to undermine the credibility of the Army without actually looking at the evidence they have provided today. There are MQM members involved in serious criminal activity. There were illegal weapons and target killers inside MQM's headquarters.

Nothing you say about the Army or anyone else changes the facts about MQM.

As for the 92 Operation, there was no need for 'Jinnahpur' to justify it. That was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

The word "rumors" isn't present in the entire article. ISPR denied that "it" wasn't in possession of any such maps. The Core commander of the city actually showed these maps to imported journalists. There was no other concrete reason for selective targeting of MQM in 1992.

You do realize that I am not trying to absolve MQM of its crimes, do you? I am aware of the party's militant wing and involvement in criminal activities. The military has harmed this country worse than the civilian counterparts. From Bangladesh to Operation Clean up to Taliban, that is a story worthy of being discussed and mistakes rectified. Does that ever happen? No.

I said 'is'. As in, presently. I was not talking about the past.

Do you people never wonder why exactly does the MQM end up getting 'targeted'? And no, it's not because of their ethnicity. The Army is full of Mohajirs. The Army was led by a Mohajir, Musharraf, for a long time.

The Army has gone through multiple leaderships, so it can't be a personal grudge or personal bias in the leadership.

The MQM hasn't given any reason as to why they think the Army is after them, except for ethnic victimization propaganda.

Therefore, the only logical reason is that the MQM has been involved in activities detrimental to National Security.

Kabhi apne girebaan me bhi jhank lo.

Do you people wonder ever why the other traitors are not condemned for their anti state and anti army statements? Zardari didn't get 1% of what AH had to face after his statements. The son of soil factor is there. The only logical explanation for the discrepancy can be seen clearly but yet none of you will accept the deeper underlying problem. After Khwaja Asif, Ch. Nisar, Sharif brothers, Imran khan, Fazlur Rehman, Munawwar Hasan and Zardari got away with their "Altafi" without any widespread condemnation and criticism. And you are asking me to introspect?

The tiny demo-graphical representation of Muhajirs inside PA, seriously? That is what you will bring to this debate? Most don't opt for military because of different reasons. And isn't Musharraf the only dictator in this country's history who has to appear in courts and be responsible for his actions? A distinction again!

Take the political party's leadership to a court of law and prove all the activities "detrimental to national security" there. Try not to put that as an excuse for maintaining the infallible image of army and tolerating no criticism on it because it may harm the country, lets introduce more accountability in the military before demanding it from anyone else, those are the ones who have ruled this country for a significant period of time and committed blunders after blunders. Separation of both Pakistan(s), interference in politics even when it wasn't needed, spread of radicalization and extremism in the society, creation of terror groups, supporting sectarian outfits - the list is long, bon ami.

Correction of mistakes is already happening. This time we have physical evidence and video footage, not just rumours of maps. And this time the Army is involving and helping strengthen the civilian authorities, while simultaneously working on their own internal accountability.

Sure, there's always room for improvement - but to say that they aren't learning lessons would be wrong.

Then again, actual "manufactured" maps did exist during that time too which many military personnel swore to have seen it. What do you have at the moment? When is it going to be presented in a competent court of law? If you have something, really something, it solves all problems, doesn't it? Yet the military and intelligence agencies remain silent about that, to this day.

We will see, when change comes. Otherwise its similar to the fate of IP pipeline.

 

[TankMan]

And then tortured and thrown out of vehicles by "saada libas" personnel somewhere? I don't think so. There have been case heard at Sindh high court on the same but the justice system of this country is limited to targeting the weak out there.

Has any of these cases been conclusively solved yet?

It doesn't,

At least you admitted it - too many of MQM's actions can't be justified.

Just like the basis of the systematic targeting of a single political party and an ethnic group was, back then.

Again, going in circles. I've already refuted this - it is not just one party or one ethnicity being targeted. The ANP, PAC, Sunni Tehreek, ASWJ, TTP, Lyari Gangs - all have been targeted. The most targeted were the Taliban and the Lyari Gangsters.

MQM worker was tortured to death: Doctors - The Express Tribune
KARACHI: Before the cause of death of the Muttahida Qaumi Movement’s activist, Ajmal Baig, could have been dragged on amid accusations and lack of evidence, the postmortem report issued on Tuesday confirmed that Baig died due to the injuries he suffered from being tortured.

The victim’s postmortem was carried out at the Karachi Civil Hospital by Dr Farhat Mirza and Dr Qarar Abbasi under the presence of the judicial magistrate.

MQM worker died in police custody laid to rest | Abb Takk News
KARACHI: MQM worker Waseem Dehalvi, who was killed due to alleged torture in police custody, has been buried, while MQM staged protest against the death of its worker in police custody, whereas MQM chief Altaf Hussain, expressing regret over the incident, has appealed his workers to remain peaceful.

Confessional statement made after torture: Wife of MQM worker
Najma Tahir, wife of the suspect, petitioned the court against the Sindh home secretary, IG police, SSP Rao Anwar and others. The petitioner said law enforcers had arrested him near MukkaChowk in the surroundings of Azizabad on February 24. Later, however, SSP Rao said that they had arrested her husband on April 30. However, Tahir’s wife alleged that her husband was subjected to torture in custody and forced to make a confessional statement before the media, during Anwar’s press conference.

SHC seeks police record, medical report of MQM worker ‘torture’
KARACHI: The Sindh High Court on Tuesday heard a petition against alleged police torture on Muttahida Qaumi Movement worker, Fahad Aziz, and directed authorities to provide security to his family members, SAMAA reported.The petition was filed by MQM’s central leader Dr. Farooq Sattar on Monday. In this petition, it was stated that the party man was arrested over ‘baseless’ charges without his nomination in any FIR and was ‘brutally’ tortured in police custody.

SUCH TV - Karachi: MQM worker dies after alleged police torture
KARACHI: Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) worker Muhammad Adil, who was brought to hospital in allegedly critical condition, has passed away at Abbasi Shaaeed Hospital.

MQM leader Haider Abbas Rizvi told media that Adil was handed over to his brother in "critical condition." Adil’s eyes were tied and he was lying on the ground, he claimed. Rizvi further said that the party worker received severe head injuries and doctors declared him brain-dead. On the another occasion, MQM leader Asif Hasnain said that Muhammad Adil was a worker from Sector 136, North Karachi. He told that the law enforcement agencies had detained Adil two days ago and allegedly tortured him.

MQM worker Wasim Aziz Bhatti Died In Jail
Karachi: Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM)’s worker who was under the custody of police at the Aziz Bhatti police station in Karachi has died today. According to the sources, the family of the late accused has claimed that Wasim Aziz died due to the violence of police as murder case has been filed against the sub-inspector and three other police officials by Wasim’s family. Although, an autopsy has been completed of late Wasim AzizBhatti in which it is said that suspect died due to head injury as his body had torture marks and his head had deep cuts.

Karachi shut down over MQM worker’s killing | GulfNews.com
Karachi: Pakistan’s largest city and financial hub on Thursday remained completely shut as a powerful political party mourned the death of one of its workers, whose tortured body was found dumped on Wednesday.

Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM), which strongly holds the urban constituencies of southern Pakistan, called for the strike after Mohammad Sohail, one of its office bearers, was found dead in the Mawach Goth area in western Karachi.

HRCP demands probe into killings of MQM workers | Pakistan Press Foundation (PPF)Pakistan Press Foundation (PPF)
LAHORE: The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) has noted with serious concern that while the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) continues to voice concerns about abduction, torture and extra-judicial killings of its workers, steps have not been taken to investigate the charges.

In a statement on Monday, HRCP Chairperson Zohra Yusuf said: “The commission has learned that bodies of two MQM workers were found in the Korangi area late last week. Both men had been missing for over a month and their bodies showed torture marks.”

Nobody deserves torture like that and yes, it is a major issue in our Police forces. Rest assured, the Sindh Police isn't alone in this, the Punjab Police isn't far behind when it comes to this.

This does not, however, undermine the credibility of the Rangers' operation.

The word "rumors" isn't present in the entire article. ISPR denied that "it" wasn't in possession of any such maps. The Core commander of the city actually showed these maps to imported journalists. There was no other concrete reason for selective targeting of MQM in 1992.

Imported journalists?
There always are other concrete reasons. The military doesn't just decide to target one party and fabricate evidence, as alleged, for no concrete reason.

You do realize that I am not trying to absolve MQM of its crimes, do you? I am aware of the party's militant wing and involvement in criminal activities.

Yet you continue to support it, its narrative, and continue to try to blame others for the crimes of MQM.

Do you people wonder ever why the other traitors are not condemned for their anti state and anti army statements? Zardari didn't get 1% of what AH had to face after his statements. The son of soil factor is there. The only logical explanation for the discrepancy can be seen clearly but yet none of you will accept the deeper underlying problem. After Khwaja Asif, Ch. Nisar, Sharif brothers, Imran khan, Fazlur Rehman, Munawwar Hasan and Zardari got away with their "Altafi" without any widespread condemnation and criticism. And you are asking me to introspect?

Zardari is arguably the most hated and abused person in Pakistan. In the media, he faced the same criticism as what Altaf Hussain had to face, and the same is true for public opinion. The reason he didn't have to face political backlash is that firstly, he has considerably greater political

If the son of soil factor is there, how did Pakistan end up being ruled by a Mohajir for ten years? MQM says there's a son of soil factor. The ANP says there's an anti-Pakhtun factor. The Balochs say there's an anti-Baloch factor. Nowadays Punjabis are starting to (rightly) say there is anti-Punjabi factor.

Aur kitne factors laa ke pesh karne?

How often does Khwaja Asif make such speeches? Imran Khan's was in private, doesn't count as a speech. Fazlur Rehman, Munawwar Hasan and Zardari receive more than enough widespread condemnation and criticism.

Altaf Hussain makes one every other day. Obviously when something will happen repeatedly, it will attract more media attention and more condemnation.

You also need to realize that there is a difference between Khwaja Asif's gol-mol statements about 'generals' and Altaf Hussain's targeted barrages of explicit abuse and swearing against specific people by name.

Take the political party's leadership to a court of law and prove all the activities "detrimental to national security" there.

Enough workers'a activities have been proven in court, if MQM doesn't mend its ways, eventually the leadership's will be proven too.

lets introduce more accountability in the military before demanding it from anyone else

What is that supposed to mean? Allow target killers or the Taliban to roam free until the military gets accountability? That is completely illogical.

I am all for accountability in the military. But that does not, in any way, mean ''let everyone else do whatever they want to''.

those are the ones who have ruled this country for a significant period of time and committed blunders after blunders. Separation of both Pakistans, interference in politics even when it wasn't needed, spread of radicalization and extremism in the society, creation of terror groups, supporting sectarian outfits are just some of it.

It isn't that simple. Don't underplay the role civilian Bhutto had in the separation of East Pakistan, and the fact that more often than not, it was the incompetence and corruption of civilian politicians that led to the Army being involved.

The Army remains the most effective, credible, meritocratic and trusted institution in Pakistan. Its shortcomings can be addressed, and are being addressed, without compromising on security.

 

[Gazi]

A change in leadership can mean a change in mindset. It quite often does.

That only happened Once and Musharraf came due to that and MQM enjoy his Support as well as Karachiites.

Absolutely nonsensical reason. The people who were involved 1992 would have mostly retired by now. Why is it that everyone ends up having ''a huge beef'' with MQM. You always mention the ''beef'' but never mention why. Maybe it's because the only reason the military officers dislike MQM is because of its criminal activities.

Not the whole Chain of Command. There are Middle Level and Lower level Field related Officers as well who would have been senior Officers till now and given Army's ego against Defeat or leaving things unfinished(Something that all Armies in the world has) their past Experience with MQM would have DISGUST them whenever they here about MQM and all those Allegations and Accusations which their Opponents try to put over them just for Hiding their FAILURES against MQM in the past as well as Present. This gives lots of MOTIVATION to them to act against MQM.

Right. So Imran and Nawaz are both perfect little puppies of the top brass - but wait a minute. Wasn't MQM recently registering FIRs against Imran Khan for speaking against the top brass? How can Imran Khan be both against and with the military at the same time?

That is very True PMLN and PTI are perfect Little Puppy for establishment because their Politics Revolves around Electables in Punjab who are easily got influenced in Jumping Ships all the time so that is why they always OBLIGED Establishment's Orders because they dont want to loss their Strength so as their Survival. Same thing that Musharraf had done to PMLN and Zia did before combining Politicians against Bhutto. MQM on the other hand is quite Different thing as they are More dependent on their supporters and members then their Leadership and they dont even Rely on Electables on the first Place which makes them Tough Nut to Crack for Establishment for their Interests.

Absolutely no such reason exists. 'Liberal-Conservative' politics never work in Pakistan, it's always a lot more complicated than that. And I fail to see how a party whose leader openly threatens to murder journalists and constantly speaks against media freedom is 'liberal'.

The Army couldn't care less about who's liberal and who's conservative.

It is Believed that Conservative and Religious Minded Gulbadin Hikmatyar use to be preferred by the ISI during Afghan War while CIA use to prefer non religious minded Ahmad Shah Masood when they were Supporting Mujahideens against Soviets then we have Hizbul Mujahideen over JKLF then comes IJI period it only got reversed in Musharraf's period for some time but now it seems like things are Back in track as Decades of Mindset cant overtake Few years.

You mean groups like the PAC which was raided three hundred and ninety six times last year alone? Or like the Sunni Tehreek whose headquarters was raided twice recently. Or maybe you're referring to all the Lyari gangsters that keep getting killed and arrested.

But yes, you are right, many groups do operate in Karachi - and the Rangers and Law Enforcement know that and are targeting them.

PAC and Lyari Gangsters once blew up Muhafiz APCs during Operation killing dozens of Rangers so it was always been Personal between Rangers and PAC from then and Sunni Tehreek was never been Targeted the way it should have been given their Existence in Karachi(Thousands of Workers mostly Ex MQM Haqiqi Killers) neither do Groups like ASWJ, IJT etc. ANP is gone and most of their Killers have either Ran Away from Taliban Threat or PTI, ASWJ in the process to drag Attention away from them and today most of ANP strongholds are either PTI stronghold or ASWJ stronghold but Rangers arent even BOTHERING to check them till now.

Do you mean to say that the MQM wasn't even involved in keeping weapons and target killers inside its own HQ?

They had Weapons but they had THREATS as well and thousands of people comes to Nine Zero everyday and lots of them live in surrounding areas as well if Rangers SHARED information of those Killers and they didnt hand over then I would whole Heatedly Blame MQM but they didnt rather Rangers Step in took them and started trying to put MQM label to them despite this could be an honest mistake as well.

Azizabad has historically been the center of MQM's activities. Do you deny that? If not, how can it be a good test case?

This explains how much you know about Karachi because Azizabad is not even CLOSE to being Fanatic MQM area in the first place. Its Liaqatabad in NA 246 and only some parts of Liaqatabad are included in NA 246 which doesnt even make up Majority there.

I never denied that MQM had seats in Karachi.

Being Elected Representatives they have RIGHTS to QUESTION Govt. and Institutions that what are they trying to in Karachi and also PROTEST if their rights are CHALLENGED because disrespecting them means disrespecting all those people who gave them this right by Electing them. That is how it works in Democracy AFAIK.

Nobody deserves torture like that and yes, it is a major issue in our Police forces. Rest assured, the Sindh Police isn't alone in this, the Punjab Police isn't far behind when it comes to this.

This does not, however, undermine the credibility of the Rangers' operation.

Rangers are making ARRESTS here on God knows what basis and later those people are getting tortured for making Confessions of Crimes that they may not have Committed and that doesnt undermine Ranger's Credibility???That is good one.

 

[Secur]

Has any of these cases been conclusively solved yet?

Autopsy reports and human rights of Pakistan concerns aren't enough proof for you. The justice system of this country doesn't believe in conclusivity. I am afraid that you will have to make do with whats available. This is an issue worthy of investigation by the law enforcers but since its them themselves involved in the whole tragedy, I don't have high hopes as no proper checks and balances are present in this country.

At least you admitted it - too many of MQM's actions can't be justified.

I have always said it, this isn't a sudden admission. MQM is not a peaceful party but its deviation is no worse than the rest.

Again, going in circles. I've already refuted this - it is not just one party or one ethnicity being targeted. The ANP, PAC, Sunni Tehreek, ASWJ, TTP, Lyari Gangs - all have been targeted. The most targeted were the Taliban and the Lyari Gangsters.

I will disagree. The MQM activists and station chiefs have been rounded by the masses, not true for others. Its not even I am in opposition of arresting them, subject them to lawful treatment.

Nobody deserves torture like that and yes, it is a major issue in our Police forces. Rest assured, the Sindh Police isn't alone in this, the Punjab Police isn't far behind when it comes to this.

This does not, however, undermine the credibility of the Rangers' operation.

It does, it proves that the law enforcers don't believe in due course and proper channels and act as vigilantes, at times. Instead of presenting warrants, they raid in simple clothes. Instead of presenting chalans and getting remands, they believe in not revealing the arrest in the first place. Instead of proper investigations, they believe in torturing accused to get information and making them confess. Instead of presenting them in courts, they believe in killing them and leaving them to rot on the roads. What message does it send? How would they do who's guilty if the confession is made under duress?

Imported journalists?
There always are other concrete reasons. The military doesn't just decide to target one party and fabricate evidence, as alleged, for no concrete reason.

You didn't read the part about getting journalists from Punjab to show them maps? Weren't locals available?

For instance, what? Sometimes, it does. The operation did happen and people who had no stake in it, got punished. MQM popularity rose for a reason. It was counterproductive.

Yet you continue to support it, its narrative, and continue to try to blame others for the crimes of MQM.

Is that what you gather from my posts? No, I don't. I ask for equal treatment. I am blaming the military for where the blame is due, they have wronged the people of this city in 1992. They have made mistakes which need heavy correction. It might have been slightly off topic. But the blame isn't being passed to anyone.

Zardari is arguably the most hated and abused person in Pakistan. In the media, he faced the same criticism as what Altaf Hussain had to face, and the same is true for public opinion. The reason he didn't have to face political backlash is that firstly, he has considerably greater political

If the son of soil factor is there, how did Pakistan end up being ruled by a Mohajir for ten years? MQM says there's a son of soil factor. The ANP says there's an anti-Pakhtun factor. The Balochs say there's an anti-Baloch factor. Nowadays Punjabis are starting to (rightly) say there is anti-Punjabi factor.

Aur kitne factors laa ke pesh karne?

How often does Khwaja Asif make such speeches? Imran Khan's was in private, doesn't count as a speech. Fazlur Rehman, Munawwar Hasan and Zardari receive more than enough widespread condemnation and criticism.

Altaf Hussain makes one every other day. Obviously when something will happen repeatedly, it will attract more media attention and more condemnation.

You also need to realize that there is a difference between Khwaja Asif's gol-mol statements about 'generals' and Altaf Hussain's targeted barrages of explicit abuse and swearing against specific people by name.

Yet only four politicians in total bothered (minus any provincial assembly, national assembly conveniently) about his statements and even those were polite! Even his political opponents said nothing. There is a factor at play.

How often does AH curse any military men or speaks in that tone/language? Daily, you think? No, he gives a dozen speeches a month and many of them don't even concern anything except the city itself.

No, they didn't. Not from politicians and not from military. I wouldn't have been arguing over that point if they did. Most of them didn't even attract a single response from political system and military establishment, the other's let go with a slap on their wrist!

Enough workers'a activities have been proven in court, if MQM doesn't mend its ways, eventually the leadership's will be proven too.

OK.

What is that supposed to mean? Allow target killers or the Taliban to roam free until the military gets accountability? That is completely illogical.

I am all for accountability in the military. But that does not, in any way, mean ''let everyone else do whatever they want to''

That accountability (despite blunder after blunder) has been delayed for so long that its hypo-critics and a serious problem for the institution to try to mend other's way when it cant mend its own in the first place.

The problem is that it doesn't seem to be happening. What was the recent case of the General who notified Americans of the Bin Laden's location in exchange for monetary (among other) benefits.

It isn't that simple. Don't underplay the role civilian Bhutto had in the separation of East Pakistan, and the fact that more often than not, it was the incompetence and corruption of civilian politicians that led to the Army being involved.

The Army remains the most effective, credible, meritocratic and trusted institution in Pakistan. Its shortcomings can be addressed, and are being addressed, without compromising on security.

It isn't that complex either. The later champion of democracy and one who once served with the dictator Ayub Khan won elections in West Pakistan and sent hateful messages inferring separatism when the East was already lost. Getting it to that boiling point (where a phase change was inevitable) is a credit that remains with Ayub and to some extent the hyper-drunk Yahya.

Its shortcoming like the ones resulting in Zarb-e-Azb and countering radicalization/extremism will take decades to undo/reverse. I am not in favor of absolving them of all sins just because they are fighting (what they once created) now for us!

 

[Musafir117]

Who are you trying to kid here?

I can get you 15 people within half an hour with their videos in a PM cursing Altaf Hussain...

Har banda alag hota hai..don't put the "Mohajir" blanket over everyone.

MQM does play Mohajir card as all in Pakistan politicians play Punjab/Pashtoon/BALOUCHI/Sindi card try to live in realities, despite urdu speaking an impressive numbers of punjabi pashtoons support MQM in urban Sind specially who settle here permanently and earn here spent here and think like normal karachiets. Why you not understand that including me @Gazi @secure are not against Army/Rangers operation, just do not deliver a selective justice, arrest criminal charge them put them in trial, you don't need to release their confession videos to the media you don't have rights to do that, you are making your every case weak when you issue a press release what you investigation and gives information/evidence to all general public even before the case goes for trial.
Rangers more than a LEA turn into a political opponent of MQM and PPP coz of their incompetent behavior and the system they adopt to operating Karachi, more they play fouls more they lose their credibility regarding with Karachi operation. Please don't compare MQM with BLA or TTP etc they are out fit banned groups and MQM is not so avoid to issue the certificates as you have no authority to doing it.

 

[waleed3601]

Waleed isnt Karachiite FYI though I agree with Haviz. If that is what you want me to say then I am myself Karachiite

Hain bhai? Ye kab sai hua?? :O

 

[Gazi]

Hain bhai? Ye kab sai hua?? :O

You live in Lahore AFAIK Arent you???

 

[waleed3601]

as all in Pakistan politicians play Punjab/Pashtoon/BALOUCHI/Sindi card

Imran Khan, Pervez Musharraf, and also (as much as I hate to say it) Jamaat e Islami.
None of these plays linguistic card.

You live in Lahore AFAIK Arent you???

Nope. Born in Karachi, grew up here. All my family migrated from Agra in UP.

 

[Gazi]

Nope. Born in Karachi, grew up here. All my family migrated from Agra in UP.

If here means Lahore then that make you Lahori and trust it isnt bad thing at all trust me. Not interested in your Parent's Migration background because neither I doubted your ethnicity nor I am Nationalist BTW Altaf Hussain's Family also Migrated from Agra as well AFAIK.

 

[Musafir117]

Imran Khan, Pervez Musharraf, and also (as much as I hate to say it) Jamaat e Islami.
None of these plays linguistic card.


Nope. Born in Karachi, grew up here. All my family migrated from Agra in UP.

You didn't get my point, alright next general election give an advise to IK that he give a ticket to Pashtoon from Chinot/Okara/Multan/Jhelum etc or give a ticket to some Punjabi from Balouchistan or KPK rural areas, it can't work or may be rear chance if candidate living there for decades, jamate islami yes in Karachi but same goes to them also, MQM other hand if give ticket to some punjabi/blouchi/Pashhtoon in urban Sind he won( need examples if gives you name )

 

[waleed3601]

If here means Lahore then that make you Lahori and trust it isnt bad thing at all trust me. Not interested in your Parent's Migration background because neither I doubted your ethnicity nor I am Nationalist BTW Altaf Hussain's Family also Migrated from Agra as well AFAIK.

No dude! You got it wrong! I meant I was born and grew up as well in Karachi!
I've only been to Lahore once in my life.....that too when I was like 7 or something.
And well I really wonder what AH's father or mother or grandfather must feel like if they heard any of his speech today, whether they would be proud of him or give him laanat....
Because all their effort went into the drain to migrate all the way from Agra, because now AH is spitting venom against the same country his parents gave up their everything for.....

You didn't get my point, alright next general election give an advise to IK that he give a ticket to Pashtoon from Chinot/Okara/Multan/Jhelum etc or give a ticket to some Punjabi from Balouchistan or KPK rural areas, it can't work or may be rear chance if candidate living there for decades, jamate islami yes in Karachi but same goes to them also, MQM other hand if give ticket to some punjabi/blouchi/Pashhtoon in urban Sind he won( need examples if gives you name )

ethnicity shouldn't matter, what should matter is character and public appeal of the candidate......

 

[@nline]