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PTI's desperate campaign for "DAWN" poll

Talking about Criminal Activity then ARREST the CRIMINAL ONLY rather then each and every Unit and Sector People for nothing at all
that is not they key argument. @TankMan and @Jango considering i actually know families here is US that are from karachi and support mqm. i have a realistic perspective on this issue.
That is the key argument, and you apparently knowing some families from Karachi means nothing. @haviZsultan is from Karachi and so is @waleed3601 . Both do not support MQM. Your perspective is no more 'realistic' than theirs.
the problem is that pakistan army/rangers have been criminals themselves in the past. they are not seen as an impartial institution. this conflict will not be resolved through maligning mqm. unless pakistan army accepts the atrocities it has committed in the past and makes a fresh start and commitment to upheld justice and impartiality,
Bull. First of all, none of this absolves MQM of its crimes.

The Army, as an institution, has not committed any such atrocities. People within the Army might have committed crimes at some point but the Army leadership changes regularly and the institution itself remains the most impartial in Pakistan.

The Army is a hundred percent committed to uphold justice and impartiality.

Notice how I said the Army leadership changes regularly. Can the same be said about Altaf Hussain? No.

The Army ''accepting'' the ''atrocities'' it supposedly committed will do nothing but give more ammunition to MQM and other propagandists. Will you then apply the same logic and force the Pakistan Army to accept the accusations leveled against it by the likes of the Taliban? There will be no 'fresh start' this way. Only destruction. If you want accountability in the Army, that is understandable - but that would involve prosecuting individuals for their crimes, if any can be proven - not the entire institution.

But this 'conflict' will not be resolved by maligning the Pakistan Army. That is just a pathetic attempt by MQM to justify its crimes. Typical finger-pointing tactics.

It will only be resolved by MQM handing over its criminals, co-operating with Law Enforcement and stopping its constant opposition of the security of Pakistan.
Why do they support BLA, LeJ and other trouble Makers on the first Place????Ever Bother to understand that????
So now we've resorted to apologism for terrorists? Whatever supposed reasoning they have, it is not valid. It does not give them the right to murder people and commit crimes. And neither does any such justification absolve MQM of its crimes.

then ARREST the CRIMINAL ONLY rather then each and every Unit and Sector People for nothing at all.
How do you find out who is a criminal without investigating? Do they wear badges saying ''i am a criminal, arrest me''? Criminals have been found from among your unit and sector people. That's not ''nothing at all''.
 
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Why do they support BLA, LeJ and other trouble Makers on the first Place????Ever Bother to understand that????

Spare me the "oppressed mazloom bhai under the tyranny of the evil imperialist Army" nonsense please.

There is no excuse to support BLA, LeJ or any other terrorist organization for any reason whatsoever...it's the state that has the final say and your allegiance should be to the state you are a national of.

Talking about Criminal Activity then ARREST the CRIMINAL ONLY rather then each and every Unit and Sector People for nothing at all. Their Units and Sectors are CLOSED since April 2015 just because of RANDOM ARRESTS what is this all about???If there are Criminals then Arrest those Criminals why those who have nothing to do with their crimes.

You sir just rubbished the whole legal system in this country. Thank you!

Is tareeqay say ayenda koi banda arrest nhn hona...
 
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That is the key argument, and you apparently knowing some families from Karachi means nothing. @haviZsultan is from Karachi and so is @waleed3601 . Both do not support MQM. Your perspective is no more 'realistic' than theirs.
Waleed isnt Karachiite FYI though I agree with Haviz. If that is what you want me to say then I am myself Karachiite so as @KURUMAYA @Patriots @batmannow @Secur as well so what about them????
How do you find out who is a criminal without investigating? Do they wear badges saying ''i am a criminal, arrest me''? Criminals have been found from among your unit and sector people. That's not ''nothing at all''.
Do our Agencies doesnt have Intelligence network or they dont have Crime Scene Investigation Capability????All these Measures can Arrest Criminals as well just like Safoora Massacre Culprits who were Arrested by Crime Scene Investigation instead of Arresting Random people and keep them under Custody for 3 Months.
 
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The Army is a hundred percent committed to uphold justice and impartiality.

What nonsense! The people of Karachi saw that during Operation Clean-up when the originally planned operation against dacoits of Sindh later shifted towards MQM on Jinnahpur allegation (which the Core Commander of the city and DG IB today deny Jinnahpur debunked - - DAWN.COM and then the whole of Urdu speakers bore the blunt of systematic intimidation and persecution in that time period. The result: MQM popularity climbed. You don't kill 15k people under manufactured evidence and then hope for any betterment in the situation. Try not selling us something we know as hundred percent false.
 
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You sir just rubbished the whole legal system in this country. Thank you!

Is tareeqay say ayenda koi banda arrest nhn hona...
So you are saying that by Arresting Random people having nothing on them is like upholding our Legal system???

Safoora Goth k banday Random Arrests say Arrest huway hain ya phir Criminal Investigation say????
Spare me the "oppressed mazloom bhai under the tyranny of the evil imperialist Army" nonsense please.

There is no excuse to support BLA, LeJ or any other terrorist organization for any reason whatsoever...it's the state that has the final say and your allegiance should be to the state you are a national of.
Lej is Jhang based Organization where Landlords were Shia and Sunnis were Peasents.

BLA started operating because they feel Baluch were Alienated.

All these are Product of Social Vulnerabilities from the start and turned into something else afterwards same is case of Taliban as well. There are no Mazloon thing but their are Social injustices and that what cause them to emerge if we cant take these Root Causes seriously then all these troubles would keep coming to us.

BTW MQM wasnt emerged by selling Tyranny of so called Imperial Army. They emerged due to IGNORANCE of our Established System towards Largest Contributor to Pakistan Economy and Revenues. Anti Army thing in MQM came afterwards when Army tried to get rid of them by Lies of Jinnahpur. They Miscalculated them thinking they can Handle them same way as they can Handle Parties based on Electables and Influentials and then this started Biting them to the end.
 
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So you are saying that by Arresting Random people having nothing on them is like upholding our Legal system???

So the Rangers just go and arrest random people for fun?

THis is the same argument that BLA puts up, FC arresting random people.

Nobody arrests random people, itna farigh koi nhn hota.

Secondly, there is always an accused. They get taken in for questioning, if nothing found, they get released.

You investigate the leads, narrow it down, when you have enough suspicion, get them in for questioning, if still you have doubts, you present them in court and get a remand...otherwise they get bail. Simple as that...

Whats the problem here exactly?

Didn't this happen with 10 or so people arrested from 90? Why don't you appreciate that fact?

Safoora Goth k banday Random Arrests say Arrest huway hain ya phir Criminal Investigation say????

What are you trying to say here exactly? There were leads, narrowed down, some men got arrested, questioned, presented before witnesses, identified and the court is taking action.

What's the difference b/w this and the 90 case?

Lej is Jhang based Organization where Landlords were Shia and Sunnis were Peasents.

BLA started operating because they feel Baluch were Alienated.

All these are Product of Social Vulnerabilities from the start and turned into something else afterwards same is case of Taliban as well. There are no Mazloon thing but their are Social injustices and that what cause them to emerge if we cant take these Root Causes seriously then all these troubles would keep coming to us.

BTW MQM wasnt emerged by selling Tyranny of so called Imperial Army. They emerged due to IGNORANCE of our Established System towards Largest Contributor to Pakistan Economy and Revenues. Anti Army thing in MQM came afterwards when Army tried to get rid of them by Lies of Jinnahpur. They Miscalculated them thinking they can Handle them same way as they can Handle Parties based on Electables and Influentials and then this started Biting them to the end.

Yeh bhi fauj ki ghalti hai...

Economy of Karachi getting ruined, Army ki ghalti.

No water in Karachi, Army ki ghalti.

No sanitation, Army ki ghalti.

No electricity, Army ki ghalti.

No governance, Army ki ghalti.

Evil Army...yeehaw!

It's the evil Punjabi Army planning against the Mohajirs of Karachi...
 
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How do you find out who is a criminal without investigating? Do they wear badges saying ''i am a criminal, arrest me''? Criminals have been found from among your unit and sector people. That's not ''nothing at all''.

As I told you earlier (or someone in the Traitors thread) to try raiding the HQs of PPP, JI, ANP, and Sunni Tehreek (actually raid it instead of picking up people nearby their HQ) and you might find something worse than 90 (might not even get no retaliation). Criminals found are "innocent until proven guilty", they aren't to be arrested, presented nowhere and killed and left on the outskirts of the city. They aren't to be subjected to third degree torture while in law enforcement's custody and then told to "drink more water" by the judge when they approach court of law for justice after renal failure. Try upholding the law this way, that might work! Acting as judge, jury and executioner will worsen the situation, as they are doing now, there's an immense increase in the popularity of MQM, its not MQM that won in NA-246, its the operation that won it for them! Leaving the dead bodies of their severely tortured workers was bound to get some sympathy.

The Army, as an institution, has not committed any such atrocities. People within the Army might have committed crimes at some point but the Army leadership changes regularly and the institution itself remains the most impartial in Pakistan.

And the same is true for the political party in question, yes?

Bangladesh, Army ki ghalti.

Rise of radicalization and extremism in the country, creation of Taliban/Mujaheddin, Army ki ghalti.

Operation Clean up to target Urdu speakers, Army ki ghalti.

Being still in bed with sectarian outfits who are allowed to work freely even today, Army ki ghalti

Corrected for you.

There will be no 'fresh start' this way.

These fresh starts can of course only come when the bloody civvies bend over backwards. The army, as an institution or individual bad eggs, is considered infallible in the country and acts without any accountability or checks. So when they fake the basis of an entire operation in Karachi, none of the culprits get court martial-ed. When they target an entire ethnic group instead of what they came in for, nothing happens. After all, there never has been any action on Hamood-ur-Rehman commission report against the military personnel found involved in atrocities in former East Pakistan? Because always always any criticism on military (be it creation of Taliban/Mujaheddin or supporting sectarian outfits in South Punjab, be it Bangladesh or Operation clean up) or calls for accountability and operating under checks would play into the hands of our enemies (mostly we manufacture them at home of course), tarnish the image of the holy institution, be against national interests/security and serve no purpose! What a way to establish the cult of personality (or in this case of the military).

During the 1992 Army operation, the MQM was accused of being anti-Pakistan, besides being alleged of hatching a conspiracy to establish a separatist state by the name of “Jinnahpur”. Numerous national newspapers and media outlets had reported that Brigadier Asif Haroon of Pakistan Army had called journalists from Punjab after the launch of the 1992 operation and had briefed them about the “Jinnahpur Conspiracy.” As reported by a large section of the national Press about 23 years ago, Brigadier Asif Haroon had stated that the maps of the break-away state “Jinnahpur” and other documents were recovered from the MQM offices. But on October 19, 1992, the same national newspapers had carried an ISPR press release, conveying Army’s denial of the knowledge of the “Jinnahpur” plan.

The ISPR had stated that the Army had no evidence concerning the so-called Jinnahpur plan and newspaper stories in that context were baseless, maintaining that the Army had neither handed over to the government any document or map as reported, nor was it in the possession of any evidence concerning the so-called “Jinnahpur Plan”. The ISPR had clarified that it was also wrong that the matter was discussed at any meeting of the Karachi Corps Commander.

Many years later, on August 24, 2009, some senior army officers, Brigadier (R) Imtiaz Billa and General (R) Naseer Akhtar (pivotal figures behind the 1992 operation in Karachi), had confessed in a television programme that “Jinnahpur” was nothing but a drama against the MQM, adding the military had not found any maps. Major’s kidnapping, Jinnahpur & 1992,1994 anti-MQM operations - thenews.com.pk
 
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People even support the Taliban, LeJ, and BLA! Doesn't make them right.


According to constitution its right if above said organisations accept constitution and participate in election to get electoral support of people ........
 
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So the Rangers just go and arrest random people for fun?

THis is the same argument that BLA puts up, FC arresting random people.

Nobody arrests random people, itna farigh koi nhn hota.

Secondly, there is always an accused. They get taken in for questioning, if nothing found, they get released.

You investigate the leads, narrow it down, when you have enough suspicion, get them in for questioning, if still you have doubts, you present them in court and get a remand...otherwise they get bail. Simple as that...

Whats the problem here exactly?

Didn't this happen with 10 or so people arrested from 90? Why don't you appreciate that fact?
If they are arresting Random People like that then the reaction from Altaf Hussain would come as well.

BLA is a Terrorist Outfit to begin with while MQM isnt declared terrorist Outfit till now so they are legal Entity here and have same rights that legal entities should have.

They are taken for Questions but remain detained for 3 months while doesnt even brought in front of court. Is this called Questioning of any kind???3 Months isnt small time and if some law abiding Citizen caught into that he lost his job and everything else which could made his life nightmare.

If this was simple as investigation lead and Narrow downing then I would have agreed with it but here they are taking anyone they find and due to this their offices are closed because anyone found in their office is getting Arrested irrelevent of his involvement on Crimes or not.

Yeh bhi fauj ki ghalti hai...

Economy of Karachi getting ruined, Army ki ghalti.

No water in Karachi, Army ki ghalti.

No sanitation, Army ki ghalti.

No electricity, Army ki ghalti.

No governance, Army ki ghalti.

Evil Army...yeehaw!

It's the evil Punjabi Army planning against the Mohajirs of Karachi...
Fauj hii ki nahi Tamam Idaroon aur Govt jo ab tak form huwin hain sab ki Ghalti hai. Fauj bhi aik idara hai woh bhi usmay ata hai.

Economy of Karachi is getting ruined, Water Crisis, Electricity problems are because Govt. is tolerating Corruption of Sindh Govt. and now a days even Establishment has decided to do the same as theirTarget is MQM only rather then ACCOUNTABILITY which is first thing required to Karachiite rather then creating a political Conflict address the Administrative Issues first because people needs Results in terms of Governance rather then Political Tug of war all around.
 
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That is the key argument, and you apparently knowing some families from Karachi means nothing. @haviZsultan is from Karachi and so is @waleed3601 . Both do not support MQM. Your perspective is no more 'realistic' than theirs.

You really made me laugh ... They are just 2 persons on PDF ... At the same time they both have different political views while opposing MQM .....
These 2 people are included in minority ... Even in recent election in NA-246, 40 thousand people didn't like MQM and they chose to go against them in their stronghold but at they same time 95 thousand people proved that they love MQM ... That's the key point ........
 
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Sunni Tehreek (actually raid it instead of picking up people nearby their HQ)
They actually raided the office, twice.
Rangers raid Sunni Tehreek office again, confiscate records - The Express Tribune
They also confiscated records - I'm sure the records weren't just lying nearby their HQ.
and you might find something worse than 90 (might not even get no retaliation).
That still doesn't justify what was found in 90. By this logic if weapons are found with the Sunni Tehreek, for example, they can simply say ''go raid the Taliban you will find something worse'' and be absolved of their guilt.
Criminals found are "innocent untilproven guilty", they aren't to be arrested,
They are to be arrested. That's how Law Enforcement works.
Criminals found are "innocent until proven guilty", they aren't to be arrested, presented nowhere and killed and left on the outskirts of the city. They aren't to be subjected to third degree torture while in law enforcement's custody and then told to "drink more water" by the judge when they approach court of law for justice after renal failure. Try upholding the law this way, that might work! Acting as judge, jury and executioner will worsen the situation, as they are doing now, there's an immense increase in the popularity of MQM, its not MQM that won in NA-246, its the operation that won it for them! Leaving the dead bodies of their severely tortured workers was bound to get some sympathy.
Do you have proof for any of these allegations?

MQM's propaganda (as seen here) and ethnic victimization is what won them the NA 246 election.
And the same is true for the political party in question, yes?
The party in question has done everything to try and defend its criminals - even then, I support the MQM's right to exist as a mainstream political party - but for that, they must abandon the criminals, and that may mean abandoning Altaf Hussain.

So when they fake the basis of an entire operation in Karachi, none of the culprits get court martial-ed.
The basis of this current operation is perfectly real.
When they target an entire ethnic group instead of what they came in for, nothing happens.
Since when do the Sunni Tehreek, ASWJ, PPP, PAC, ANP, the Lyari Gangs, the Taliban and all the petty criminals in Karachi belong to the same ethnic group as MQM? They don't. Then how exactly is one ethnic group being targeted?

During the 1992 Army operation, the MQM was accused of being anti-Pakistan, besides being alleged of hatching a conspiracy to establish a separatist state by the name of “Jinnahpur”. Numerous national newspapers and media outlets had reported that Brigadier Asif Haroon of Pakistan Army had called journalists from Punjab after the launch of the 1992 operation and had briefed them about the “Jinnahpur Conspiracy.” As reported by a large section of the national Press about 23 years ago, Brigadier Asif Haroon had stated that the maps of the break-away state “Jinnahpur” and other documents were recovered from the MQM offices. But on October 19, 1992, the same national newspapers had carried an ISPR press release, conveying Army’s denial of the knowledge of the “Jinnahpur” plan.

The ISPR had stated that the Army had no evidence concerning the so-called Jinnahpur plan and newspaper stories in that context were baseless, maintaining that the Army had neither handed over to the government any document or map as reported, nor was it in the possession of any evidence concerning the so-called “Jinnahpur Plan”. The ISPR had clarified that it was also wrong that the matter was discussed at any meeting of the Karachi Corps Commander.

Many years later, on August 24, 2009, some senior army officers, Brigadier (R) Imtiaz Billa and General (R) Naseer Akhtar (pivotal figures behind the 1992 operation in Karachi), had confessed in a television programme that “Jinnahpur” was nothing but a drama against the MQM, adding the military had not found any maps. Major’s kidnapping, Jinnahpur & 1992,1994 anti-MQM operations - thenews.com.pk
According to your source, some rumors were spread in the media, which were denied by the ISPR.
They clarified their stance and refuted the rumors. They did their job. Asif Haroon should have been investigated and tried, yes. But it didn't happen under those times' leadership. Yes, there should be more accountability in the Army. Today's leadership is already working to establish it.

But do you realize that none of what you said in that entire wall of text absolves the MQM of its crimes? None of it. You're trying to undermine the credibility of the Army without actually looking at the evidence they have provided today. There are MQM members involved in serious criminal activity. There were illegal weapons and target killers inside MQM's headquarters.

Nothing you say about the Army or anyone else changes the facts about MQM.

As for the 92 Operation, there was no need for 'Jinnahpur' to justify it. That was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
What nonsense! The people of Karachi saw that during Operation Clean-up when the originally planned operation against dacoits of Sindh later shifted towards MQM on Jinnahpur allegation
I said 'is'. As in, presently. I was not talking about the past.

Do you people never wonder why exactly does the MQM end up getting 'targeted'? And no, it's not because of their ethnicity. The Army is full of Mohajirs. The Army was led by a Mohajir, Musharraf, for a long time.

The Army has gone through multiple leaderships, so it can't be a personal grudge or personal bias in the leadership.

The MQM hasn't given any reason as to why they think the Army is after them, except for ethnic victimization propaganda.

Therefore, the only logical reason is that the MQM has been involved in activities detrimental to National Security.

Kabhi apne girebaan me bhi jhank lo.
 
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I said 'is'. As in, presently. I was not talking about the past.
Why you people Avoid the Past and what happened back then????They are good Examples for ESTABLISHING the track record of our Institutions.
 
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You really made me laugh ... These are just 2 persons on PDF ... At the same time they both have different political views while opposing MQM .....
Two persons on PDF hold just as much, if not more, credibility than some random ''families in the US'' from Karachi as cited by @taimur12

Laugh at him if you want to.
These 2 people are included in minority ... Even in recent election in NA-246, 40 thousand people didn't like MQM and they chose to go against them but at they same time 95 thousand people proved that they love MQM ... That's the key point ........
NA 246 does not equal Karachi, and MQM doesn't equal all Mohajirs.

95 thousand people can love MQM as much as they like, I have no problem with that. My problem is with criminals operating from within MQM. The people didn't vote for those criminals, they voted for the people they wanted to be as their representatives.

Abandon the criminals, and maybe then the MQM stands a chance at being a unifying national party rather than a divisive ethnic party restricted to Karachi.
 
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Two persons on PDF hold just as much, if not more, credibility than some random ''families in the US'' from Karachi as cited by @taimur12

Laugh at him if you want to.
So two persons hold More credibility then 6 to 7 people around here who actually living in Karachi right now as we Speak.
 
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They actually raided the office, twice.
Rangers raid Sunni Tehreek office again, confiscate records - The Express Tribune
They also confiscated records - I'm sure the records weren't just lying nearby their HQ.

That still doesn't justify what was found in 90. By this logic if weapons are found with the Sunni Tehreek, for example, they can simply say ''go raid the Taliban you will find something worse'' and be absolved of their guilt.

They are to be arrested. That's how Law Enforcement works.

Since when do the Sunni Tehreek, ASWJ, PPP, PAC, ANP, the Lyari Gangs, the Taliban and all the petty criminals in Karachi belong to the same ethnic group as MQM? They don't. Then how exactly is one ethnic group being targeted?

Well done sir...well done!

This just hit it bang on the head!

Maybe the Sunni Tehreek records were in a garbage can near their HQ planted by evil Punjabi Army, you never know!

In the end, I would just say, kindly reply to all the points raised in a post rather than just selective replies and getting onto the same old mantra of Jinnahpur. Aaj ki baat karo bhai...today is more important.

That is all.
 
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