PTI's Azadi March 14th August 2014 l Updates and debate.

[ajpirzada]

I hope that supporters of PTI will have a calm response to that comment of yours so that we can have a good discussion on this important phenomenon that is the subject of the OP. (I agree with you BTW.)

my fear is more to do with PTI's future after Imran Khan. If PTI ppl dont understand this point then it will only be a personality cult. As long as IK is there, it may act as an instrument of change. But soon after, everyone will try to hijack the movement hence the implosion.

 

[VCheng]

my fear is more to do with PTI's future after Imran Khan. If PTI ppl dont understand this point then it will only be a personality cult. As long as IK is there, it may act as an instrument of change. But soon after, everyone will try to hijack the movement hence the implosion.

I think the implosion will come sooner than that, even with IK at the helm. PTI will likely never make it to power by elections, and even if it did so by some miracle, divine or otherwise, the disappointment with the inevitable inability to achieve even a fraction of what it has promised will be devastating. And the cycle will repeat according to Pakistan's checkered political history.

 

[ajpirzada]

I think the implosion will come sooner than that, even with IK at the helm. PTI will likely never make it to power by elections, and even if it did so by some miracle, divine or otherwise, the disappointment with the inevitable inability to achieve even a fraction of what it has promised will be devastating. And the cycle will repeat according to Pakistan's checkered political history.

im relatively more optimistic as far as PTI's future in the short to medium term is concerned. lets see

 

[VCheng]

im relatively more optimistic as far as PTI's future in the short to medium term is concerned. lets see

Well, the dharna is being toned down with IK now saying that a "true" declaration of NS assets is enough to wind it up, rather than the previous demand for his resignation. It is only a matter of time before IK realizes what he is up against in terms of the Pakistani system, unless he is aided "divinely".

 

[AHMED85]

After all IK deliver its best vision & sensitize its public on what the political parties doing with them.
Never ignore & lost good man.

 

[AHMED85]

<p>

divinely

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Simple if he show what he have in assets than public easily know his mind regarding them.
It is very important for Nora now. Any how he lost his status than before in the minds of peoples when they realize about him.

If IK not rationalize public their show going more several years. It is good effort by God and source is IK.

 

[ajpirzada]

Well, the dharna is being toned down with IK now saying that a "true" declaration of NS assets is enough to wind it up, rather than the previous demand for his resignation. It is only a matter of time before IK realizes what he is up against in terms of the Pakistani system, unless he is aided "divinely".

you are focusing too much on the individual events than on the narrative. my focus is more on the alternate narrative and its attractiveness rather than what will happen to this dharna. this dharna (and the likes) is just a political event which has achieved less w.r.t. overthrowing the govt but at the same time helped in propagating the narrative. If the propagation of this narrative carries on and spreads beyond the urban centre then definitely PTI will out do the existing political forces.

the only other way of this not happening is if you argue that this alternate narrative is not more attractive than the existing narratives. i think, given that no unexpected event happens, it is only a matter of time that this narrative will gain enough critical mass to overturn the existing ruling elite. Obviously, another way of this not happening is if the existing ruling elite adopts this narrative and starts working on it. However, in my understanding, they will not go this way due to their own incentive structure.

as far as your saying that even if PTI comes to power it will not be able to implement its own vision; well only time will tell. The dream they are building will fall on them if they do not make atleast some of it a reality after coming to power

 

[VCheng]

you are focusing too much on the individual events than on the narrative. my focus is more on the alternate narrative and its attractiveness rather than what will happen to this dharna. this dharna (and the likes) is just a political event which has achieved less w.r.t. overthrowing the govt but at the same time helped in propagating the narrative. If the propagation of this narrative carries on and spreads beyond the urban centre then definitely PTI will out do the existing political forces.

the only other way of this not happening is if you argue that this alternate narrative is not more attractive than the existing narratives. i think, given that no unexpected event happens, it is only a matter of time that this narrative will gain enough critical mass to overturn the existing ruling elite. Obviously, another way of this not happening is if the existing ruling elite adopts this narrative and starts working on it. However, in my understanding, they will not go this way due to their own incentive structure.

Good points, but it is evident to many that this narrative may be just as false as the existing ones:

The mythical feudal and the real elite

 

[ajpirzada]

Good points, but it is evident to many that this narrative may be just as false as the existing ones:

The mythical feudal and the real elite

I am not sure what exactly does the author consider as non-mythical. This country has gone through many phases which saw considerable changes. Bhutto's socialist policies were a reflection of his manifesto. He forever changed the structure of the society. Then Zia's policies of pseudo islamisation also had significant impact on peoples life. Similarly with PMLN. They never sold de-familization of politics. The infrastructure/projects minus the institutions based narrative sold by the PMLN did have mass appeal and so it happened. And so on... Therefore, it is wrong to say that any narrative chosen by the people does not transpire on the ground.

A narrative may be good or bad but it will more often than not leave an impact on the society once the society chooses it. My blog post is more to do with a particular narrative seeing the dawn of the day once it is accepted by the society in general. Indeed, a narrative may fail to pull people out of their misery thus forcing them to switch to a new one whenever presented with an opportunity.

Using my own terminology, the author of this articles is propagating that none of these narratives have any good in them for the people. If believed, this will have an obvious detrimental consequence of inaction on part of the society towards finding a solution to their problem.

 

[VCheng]

Using my own terminology, the author of this articles is propagating that none of these narratives have any good in them for the people. If believed, this will have an obvious detrimental consequence of inaction on part of the society towards finding a solution to their problem.

Well, despite your contention that narratives in the past have been chosen by the people, it is quite obvious that the people's well-being has consistently gone from bad to worse with every change, which supports that article's contention and not your blog post's.

 

[ajpirzada]

Well, despite your contention that narratives in the past have been chosen by the people, it is quite obvious that the people's well-being has consistently gone from bad to worse with every change, which supports that article's contention and not your blog post's.

The author implicitly saying that since none of the past narratives had any benefit in them for the people, so will be the case with this narrative.
What I am saying is that this narrative is finding mass appeal with the people in a way which is brining people with contradictory ideologies under one banner. Even though I do believe that this narrative will transpire in much good for the people, my post is not focused on this.

Indeed, if you want to extrapolate past experience into the future then my understanding about the goodness of this new narrative is wrong. But ill rather not extrapolate hoping that something good will transpire. Since the existing narrative is not working, i find no harm in trying a new one which is making sense to me.

 

[VCheng]

The author implicitly saying that since none of the past narratives had any benefit in them for the people, so will be the case with this narrative.
What I am saying is that this narrative is finding mass appeal with the people in a way which is brining people with contradictory ideologies under one banner. Even though I do believe that this narrative will transpire in much good for the people, my post is not focused on this.

Indeed, if you want to extrapolate past experience into the future then my understanding about the goodness of this new narrative is wrong. But ill rather not extrapolate hoping that something good will transpire. Since the existing narrative is not working, i find no harm in trying a new one which is making sense to me.

I am struggling to find the rationale for your hope for this narrative in view of past experiences with similar experiments. Surely you must see something that I do not.

 

[Tameem]

Shabasshh PTI

 

[Saifkhan12]

I am struggling to find the rationale for your hope for this narrative in view of past experiences with similar experiments. Surely you must see something that I do not.

IK has done a grand job of not just bringing people together but also in bringing people out to ask for their rights. I also hope some good will come of this and it will be different from before.

We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

[ajpirzada]

I am struggling to find the rationale for your hope for this narrative in view of past experiences with similar experiments. Surely you must see something that I do not.

a student failed the exam many times. one day he wakes up thinking he can do it this time. what benefit does he have in not trying once more? who knows his efforts might payoff this time and he may move ahead in his life leaving his miserable state behind.

thats all i see. Since I think it may work, why not give it a shot!