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PTI Dharna Politics and Possible Scenarios

again, no answer, only rants and God know why everybody thinks that they can blackmail by saying, "Oh I was a PTI supporter but not anymore", come on homies, be more creative !
It is not about blackmail Leader Sir,

The problem is PTI supporters voted in the last general elections in the name of change. But at the same time the supporters are pro-democracy and want to ensure that no such steps were taken that take us back to square one. I am sure you have heard about the 1977 unrest after the general elections which led to Military rule not soon after the elections were held. We don't want to see repeat of that.

Some of us remind about being the voter is because we feel in order to grow the party, PTI is neglecting its voters. Hungriness for power is understandable but it must not be so high that you start taking steps which may lead to anarchy.

Imagine if a single bullet was fired and/or some people die, the matter will be heated further and there is a possibility that Army may come into action once again, you think it can't happen, I think it won't happen just because of the supreme court, but it has happened 3 times before and I see no reason why it can't be repeated once again. PTI is going to be the biggest loser in this case and being supporters of PTI we protest...
 
It is not about blackmail Leader Sir,

The problem is PTI supporters voted in the last general elections in the name of change. But at the same time the supporters are pro-democracy and want to ensure that no such steps were taken that take us back to square one. I am sure you have heard about the 1977 unrest after the general elections which led to Military rule not soon after the elections were held. We don't want to see repeat of that.

Some of us remind about being the voter is because we feel in order to grow the party, PTI is neglecting its voters. Hungriness for power is understandable but it must not be so high that you start taking steps which may lead to anarchy.

Imagine if a single bullet was fired and/or some people die, the matter will be heated further and there is a possibility that Army may come into action once again, you think it can't happen, I think it won't happen just because of the supreme court, but it has happened 3 times before and I see no reason why it can't be repeated once again. PTI is going to be the biggest loser in this case and being supporters of PTI we protest...

Sir break the barriers and hear, I am going to repeat it for the last time.

exposing election rigging,
demanding electoral reforms
resignation
mid term election

tell me, like bhutto, if the govt restores to "violence", what exactly is undemocratic here, if you can point out please?
 
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It is not about blackmail Leader Sir,

The problem is PTI supporters voted in the last general elections in the name of change. But at the same time the supporters are pro-democracy and want to ensure that no such steps were taken that take us back to square one. I am sure you have heard about the 1977 unrest after the general elections which led to Military rule not soon after the elections were held. We don't want to see repeat of that.

Some of us remind about being the voter is because we feel in order to grow the party, PTI is neglecting its voters. Hungriness for power is understandable but it must not be so high that you start taking steps which may lead to anarchy.

Imagine if a single bullet was fired and/or some people die, the matter will be heated further and there is a possibility that Army may come into action once again, you think it can't happen, I think it won't happen just because of the supreme court, but it has happened 3 times before and I see no reason why it can't be repeated once again. PTI is going to be the biggest loser in this case and being supporters of PTI we protest...
Please be fair for once,atleast i dont expect the usual and typical one sided analysis coming out from your post...

You havent for once blamed the current Government's irresponsible and non serious attitude over the last one and half year on this Election issue and so many other issues that were raised that needed to be addressed with some seriousness...now this kinda behaviour has resulted in this Chaos!
 
You are the only one who is ranting. Those are logical arguments, either counter with logic or as it is clear that you have none; we can all agree that even you have no clue to what your Party is about to do.

khuwajay ka gawa daddu !
 
Sir break the barriers and hear, I am going to repeat it for th last time.

exposing election rigging,
demanding electoral reforms
resignation
mid term election

tell me, unless like bhutto, if the govt doesnot restore to violence, what is undemocratic?
Sir, There are 195 million people in Pakistan, perhaps 20 million would be supporters of PTI, another 20 million supporters of PML-N. So if the marches are going to be the ultimate solution then even if mid term elections are held and PTI win miraculously... What happens after the general elections.

PML-N can also launch street protests and gather as many or even more people on the streets since they have been doing street politics since decades and they are master of this art. The bottom line is, we are back to 90s politics where the opposition party will start pulling legs of ruling party and if the midterm elections were held, faces might be changed but the rules of the game remains same that the opposition party will protest and continue pulling leg of the ruling party.

PTI open heartedly accepted the defeat and they have not been able to absorb the truth. I know PML-N is the most dumbest political party in Pakistan so they just made the matter worse but it no where means that we continue supporting the opposition parties and always demanding for mid term elections.

It is a matter which needs to be resolved within the parliament benches, curb the tenure to 4 years if possible, make election commission more powerful, force the government to allocate enough budget to election commission so they can buy quarter million or so electronic machines for e-voting, train the staff, train people, test the technology, ensure the voting process cannot be hacked and all.

It will take years to first lay the proper platform for free n fair elections. The election commission before the general election in 2013 were trying to introduce the electronic voting machine but they refrained after seeing the complexities and the fact they had little time before the general elections. PTI can take full credit of it, they can claim that IK introduced neutral umpires in cricket, now they introduced neutral technology for free n fair election.

Continue protests, do as many as you want but demanding for mid term election at this time is the repeat telecast of 2013 elections since no progress to improve the election process has been made thus far.
 
Sir, There are 195 million people in Pakistan, perhaps 20 million would be supporters of PTI, another 20 million supporters of PML-N. So if the marches are going to be the ultimate solution then even if mid term elections are held and PTI win miraculously... What happens after the general elections.

PML-N can also launch street protests and gather as many or even more people on the streets since they have been doing street politics since decades and they are master of this art. The bottom line is, we are back to 90s politics where the opposition party will start pulling legs of ruling party and if the midterm elections were held, faces might be changed but the rules of the game remains same that the opposition party will protest and continue pulling leg of the ruling party.

PTI open heartedly accepted the defeat and they have not been able to absorb the truth. I know PML-N is the most dumbest political party in Pakistan so they just made the matter worse but it no where means that we continue supporting the opposition parties and always demanding for mid term elections.

It is a matter which needs to be resolved within the parliament benches, curb the tenure to 4 years if possible, make election commission more powerful, force the government to allocate enough budget to election commission so they can buy quarter million or so electronic machines for e-voting, train the staff, train people, test the technology, ensure the voting process cannot be hacked and all.

It will take years to first lay the proper platform for free n fair elections. The election commission before the general election in 2013 were trying to introduce the electronic voting machine but they refrained after seeing the complexities and the fact they had little time before the general elections. PTI can take full credit of it, they can claim that IK introduced neutral umpires in cricket, now they introduced neutral technology for free n fair election.

Continue protests, do as many as you want but demanding for mid term election at this time is the repeat telecast of 2013 elections since no progress to improve the election process has been made thus far.

pufff... no reply, words, more words.. ayain bain shain... be a man and reply to my questions !
 
That is what you assume my dear..... If they give into the demands now then theory of deterrence gets flawed, because next time they go out govt will take them as a pinch of salt.... Plus right now is the time for PTI to show their strength that if they don't listen, then PTI still got it...
Add far as resignation is concerned then it is their constitutional right.... And so is mine..... So move on my dear.....
Btw thread is about possible outcomes... Not whose right and whose wrong
Pretty wrong here. If election reforms were the end point. IK wouldn't have ask for SS or His Brother Resignation, The only goal for this whole drama is that he thinks he will become PM, if he continue the path..

For election reforms, Government already offered PTI many times, even many other party announce their presence for this. But PTI backed out from that.
If rigging was the issue, Government accepted their Audit demand.

This pressure tactic are to break the government and mount Imran Khan a PM
 
Yep, always think strategically... Govt is throwing the higwash that it is unconstitutional and blah bla bla
this is the thing that people are not acknowledging yet....why should one even not work at all for the next elections to be conducted in free and fair environment? this country is not someone's personal property,in this case neither of Zardari's nor of Sharrif's that they shouldnt be questioned at all on whatever they do and that only they and their families should be allowed to rule!

if this is the case then kindly change the name of Pakistan to Islamic Republic of Sharrifs and Zardaris and their next generation! thanks!
 
Sir, There are 195 million people in Pakistan, perhaps 20 million would be supporters of PTI, another 20 million supporters of PML-N. So if the marches are going to be the ultimate solution then even if mid term elections are held and PTI win miraculously... What happens after the general elections.

PML-N can also launch street protests and gather as many or even more people on the streets since they have been doing street politics since decades and they are master of this art. The bottom line is, we are back to 90s politics where the opposition party will start pulling legs of ruling party and if the midterm elections were held, faces might be changed but the rules of the game remains same that the opposition party will protest and continue pulling leg of the ruling party.

PTI open heartedly accepted the defeat and they have not been able to absorb the truth. I know PML-N is the most dumbest political party in Pakistan so they just made the matter worse but it no where means that we continue supporting the opposition parties and always demanding for mid term elections.

It is a matter which needs to be resolved within the parliament benches, curb the tenure to 4 years if possible, make election commission more powerful, force the government to allocate enough budget to election commission so they can buy quarter million or so electronic machines for e-voting, train the staff, train people, test the technology, ensure the voting process cannot be hacked and all.

It will take years to first lay the proper platform for free n fair elections. The election commission before the general election in 2013 were trying to introduce the electronic voting machine but they refrained after seeing the complexities and the fact they had little time before the general elections. PTI can take full credit of it, they can claim that IK introduced neutral umpires in cricket, now they introduced neutral technology for free n fair election.

Continue protests, do as many as you want but demanding for mid term election at this time is the repeat telecast of 2013 elections since no progress to improve the election process has been made thus far.

It is the same old same old story. A nation that does not learn from its history is condemned to repeat it. Will we ever learn? Not likely.
 
True, but then PTI is a young party of young people. But IK should know better. He has made mistakes. About time he learns from them. I think that PTI would learn from its mistakes instead of learning from other people's mistakes.

@JonAsad , comment needed. Thanks is not enough.
@TheFlyingPretzel , same for you too.
My friend,
This is the worse tragedy that Mr.Khan is novice in handling government's affairs and he is not a good politician regardless of this fact that he possesses excellent leadership skills.Let us make this clear that there is a huge different of being a leader and politician.
Nevertheless, it is good to see him as fast learner in politics. PML-N on the other hand is pissed because they don't want rigging to be highlighted. The very same Mr.Sharif was waging massive protest during PPP era,despite of this fact that he was warned of TTP's suicide attacks and huge loss of lives[as a response of Operation Enduring Freedom and rest 5/9 done at that time].
Now,very same Mr.Sharif is standing in same position:Operation Zarb e Azb is going on and there is huge threat of terrorist attack as response to ops while Mr.Khan is doing what Mr.Sharif has done earlier.
On the basis of above reasons,I will give him 9/10 as leader for using 'tit for tat' strategy.
However, as politician I will give him 4/10 as politician since he failed to keep GHQ in hand, plus he made huge mistake by celebrating eid with IDP since it has strengthen roots of Popalzai and element like him who intended to challenge and divide Pakistan. Mr.Khan talks about unity but he made mistake in here.He would have visited IDP in second day of eid rather then 29th of Ramadan. He must keep in mind that his every stance will effect upon public.
Regards
 
pufff... no reply, words, more words.. ayain bain shain... be a man and reply to my questions !

1. Here is answer to one of your questions about rigging and government response:
Ten truths about electoral rigging
By Zahid F. Ebrahim
Published: August 4, 2014



The writer is an advocate of the Supreme Court and can be reached on Twitter @zfebrahim

The PTI and PML-N are unable to resolve their political differences. Therefore on August 14, Islamabad is bracing for a clash, which will test Pakistan’s democracy. Imran Khan, who will lead the Azadi march from Lahore to Islamabad, calls it a “decisive battle”. The tempo for the long march has been built on a series of rallies in Punjab where the PTI has repeatedly hammered home its case against electoral rigging. These arguments have mostly been taken at face value. Let’s see how they fare in the light of facts put together by FAFEN, an independent election monitoring NGO.

1) Election tribunals have failed to decide cases — Around 410 election petitions were filed by losing candidates before the 14 election tribunals established across the country. As of last month, 292 petitions, i.e., 73 per cent of all cases, have already been decided by election tribunals. This is unprecedented when compared with the disposal rate of election tribunals in previous elections.

2) Judges of election tribunals were appointed under a faulty process by a biased Election Commission of Pakistan — In previous elections, high court judges were burdened with the responsibility to decide petitions after completing their usual day’s work. Now, election tribunals are manned by retired judges, whose only work is to decide election cases. The ECP did not appoint these judges. Each of the election tribunal judges were proposed by the respective chief justices of the provincial high courts.

3) Election tribunals are purposely going slow — It is correct that election tribunals were not able to meet the 120-day deadline to decide cases. One reason for the delay is the attitude of many losing candidates. Take for example the case of petition number 344 of 2013, Usman Dar vs Khawaja Asif. In its decision, the tribunal wrote: “The way the petitioner avoided to enter the witness box and disregarded the directions of this tribunal on the pretext of business tour abroad, provides a basis to infer that he was/is no more interested in the matter. Costs of adjournments to the tune of Rs30,000/- have not been paid by the petitioner till date. It appears that after filing the election petition, the petitioner lost interest in the election dispute and then attempted to prolong the trial … the petitioner failed to prove the allegations … (and) the election petition is found to be without any merit and is accordingly dismissed … .”

4) If election tribunals decided the PTI’s cases, the PML-N government would collapse — The PTI candidates filed a total of 58 petitions challenging National and provincial assembly elections in various constituencies. Of these, 39 petitions, i.e., 70 per cent have already been decided by the election tribunals. Unfortunately for the PTI, none of the 39 cases were successful. Now, only 19 PTI petitions remain to be decided. Even if each of these is decided in the PTI’s favour, it will not dent the overall election result.

5) Election tribunals are favouring the PML-N — Thus far, 10 elected parliamentarians of the PML-N have been unseated by the election tribunals. This is the highest number of decisions against any political party. Judgments in only two petitions have gone against PTI candidates. Independent candidates are the biggest winners thus far with eight cases in their favour, followed by the PPP at six.

6) If the government has nothing to hide, then why is it refusing to open the cases of four seats demanded by the PTI — The election results on the four National Assembly seats, i.e., NA-110, NA-122, NA-125 and NA-154 have already been opened and are subjects of judicial inquiry by the election tribunals, which are the only forum for opening disputed results of any election. The government has no role to play here.

7) Unprecedented rigging on four seats — NA-110 was one of the four seats cited for election rigging. According to FAFEN, the number of electoral violations in NA-110 is zero. Compare this with NA-1, where Imran Khan won the election. The electoral violations here are listed as 58 by FAFEN. The point is not that the NA-1 result was manipulated simply because FAFEN listed these violations. The point is that there were approximately 90,000 polling stations across the country. Electoral law violations in some of these, deplorable as they may be, do not make these a rigged parliament.

8) The PML-N rigged elections to defeat the PTI’s Jahangir Tareen — NA-154 is another one of the four seats. Here, the PML-N is blamed for stealing Tareen’s victory. But it is interesting to note that the PML-N candidate here also lost the election. The winner was an independent candidate, Mohammad Siddik Baloch. If the PML-N wanted to rig this seat, why would its candidate come a distant third?

9) Even the PPP supports the demand to reopen result of four constituencies — The PPP is happy that the PTI is focusing attention solely on Punjab. The PPP lost a large number of safe seats in Punjab. Although this has happened before, this time, the loss threatens its very existence in Punjab. In the famous four constituencies, the PPP received an abysmal one per cent, 1.6 per cent, 2.9 per cent and five per cent of total votes cast and its candidates lost even their security deposits. Therefore, how can the PPP resist the opportunity to help de-legitimise the election results in these constituencies?

10) The PTI exhausted all forums provided by law before coming on the streets — The Representation of Peoples Act provides that the forum to contest election results is the election tribunals. Around 73 per cent of all cases have already been decided by them. Anyone aggrieved by their decisions can file an appeal in the Supreme Court as mandated by law. Rule of law is not just an empty slogan to be raised in public rallies and television talk shows. It is the foundation which we must abide by if we are to build a modern and stable Pakistan.

Published in The Express Tribune, August 4th, 2014.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once you answer this, we can take things forward from there. Be a man and acknowledge facts and logic instead of raising muck and calling people names.

@hasnain0099 , forgot to invite you to this thread. Please share your views. @W.11 you too. Also @farhan_9909
 
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1. Here is answer to one of your questions about rigging and government response:
Ten truths about electoral rigging
By Zahid F. Ebrahim
Published: August 4, 2014



The writer is an advocate of the Supreme Court and can be reached on Twitter @zfebrahim

The PTI and PML-N are unable to resolve their political differences. Therefore on August 14, Islamabad is bracing for a clash, which will test Pakistan’s democracy. Imran Khan, who will lead the Azadi march from Lahore to Islamabad, calls it a “decisive battle”. The tempo for the long march has been built on a series of rallies in Punjab where the PTI has repeatedly hammered home its case against electoral rigging. These arguments have mostly been taken at face value. Let’s see how they fare in the light of facts put together by FAFEN, an independent election monitoring NGO.

1) Election tribunals have failed to decide cases — Around 410 election petitions were filed by losing candidates before the 14 election tribunals established across the country. As of last month, 292 petitions, i.e., 73 per cent of all cases, have already been decided by election tribunals. This is unprecedented when compared with the disposal rate of election tribunals in previous elections.

2) Judges of election tribunals were appointed under a faulty process by a biased Election Commission of Pakistan — In previous elections, high court judges were burdened with the responsibility to decide petitions after completing their usual day’s work. Now, election tribunals are manned by retired judges, whose only work is to decide election cases. The ECP did not appoint these judges. Each of the election tribunal judges were proposed by the respective chief justices of the provincial high courts.

3) Election tribunals are purposely going slow — It is correct that election tribunals were not able to meet the 120-day deadline to decide cases. One reason for the delay is the attitude of many losing candidates. Take for example the case of petition number 344 of 2013, Usman Dar vs Khawaja Asif. In its decision, the tribunal wrote: “The way the petitioner avoided to enter the witness box and disregarded the directions of this tribunal on the pretext of business tour abroad, provides a basis to infer that he was/is no more interested in the matter. Costs of adjournments to the tune of Rs30,000/- have not been paid by the petitioner till date. It appears that after filing the election petition, the petitioner lost interest in the election dispute and then attempted to prolong the trial … the petitioner failed to prove the allegations … (and) the election petition is found to be without any merit and is accordingly dismissed … .”

4) If election tribunals decided the PTI’s cases, the PML-N government would collapse — The PTI candidates filed a total of 58 petitions challenging National and provincial assembly elections in various constituencies. Of these, 39 petitions, i.e., 70 per cent have already been decided by the election tribunals. Unfortunately for the PTI, none of the 39 cases were successful. Now, only 19 PTI petitions remain to be decided. Even if each of these is decided in the PTI’s favour, it will not dent the overall election result.

5) Election tribunals are favouring the PML-N — Thus far, 10 elected parliamentarians of the PML-N have been unseated by the election tribunals. This is the highest number of decisions against any political party. Judgments in only two petitions have gone against PTI candidates. Independent candidates are the biggest winners thus far with eight cases in their favour, followed by the PPP at six.

6) If the government has nothing to hide, then why is it refusing to open the cases of four seats demanded by the PTI — The election results on the four National Assembly seats, i.e., NA-110, NA-122, NA-125 and NA-154 have already been opened and are subjects of judicial inquiry by the election tribunals, which are the only forum for opening disputed results of any election. The government has no role to play here.

7) Unprecedented rigging on four seats — NA-110 was one of the four seats cited for election rigging. According to FAFEN, the number of electoral violations in NA-110 is zero. Compare this with NA-1, where Imran Khan won the election. The electoral violations here are listed as 58 by FAFEN. The point is not that the NA-1 result was manipulated simply because FAFEN listed these violations. The point is that there were approximately 90,000 polling stations across the country. Electoral law violations in some of these, deplorable as they may be, do not make these a rigged parliament.

8) The PML-N rigged elections to defeat the PTI’s Jahangir Tareen — NA-154 is another one of the four seats. Here, the PML-N is blamed for stealing Tareen’s victory. But it is interesting to note that the PML-N candidate here also lost the election. The winner was an independent candidate, Mohammad Siddik Baloch. If the PML-N wanted to rig this seat, why would its candidate come a distant third?

9) Even the PPP supports the demand to reopen result of four constituencies — The PPP is happy that the PTI is focusing attention solely on Punjab. The PPP lost a large number of safe seats in Punjab. Although this has happened before, this time, the loss threatens its very existence in Punjab. In the famous four constituencies, the PPP received an abysmal one per cent, 1.6 per cent, 2.9 per cent and five per cent of total votes cast and its candidates lost even their security deposits. Therefore, how can the PPP resist the opportunity to help de-legitimise the election results in these constituencies?

10) The PTI exhausted all forums provided by law before coming on the streets — The Representation of Peoples Act provides that the forum to contest election results is the election tribunals. Around 73 per cent of all cases have already been decided by them. Anyone aggrieved by their decisions can file an appeal in the Supreme Court as mandated by law. Rule of law is not just an empty slogan to be raised in public rallies and television talk shows. It is the foundation which we must abide by if we are to build a modern and stable Pakistan.

Published in The Express Tribune, August 4th, 2014.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once you answer this, we can take things forward from there. Be a man and acknowledge facts and logic instead of raising muck and calling people names.

@hasnain0099 , forgot to invite you to this thread. Please share your views. @W.11 you too. Also @farhan_9909

again misleading and not the answer to the questions posed, as the Question of rigging should have been sorted in legal manner within 90 days, if that was so, what hesitation did they have til now?

I know that for many democracy is a heavy word to comprehend but still it is PTI's democratic right to expose rigging, why dig stupid conspiracy theories?
 
again misleading and not the answer to the questions posed, as the Question of rigging should have been sorted in legal manner within 90 days, if that was so, what hesitation did they have til now?

I know that for many democracy is a heavy word to comprehend but still it is PTI's democratic right to expose rigging, why dig stupid conspiracy theories?

There is nothing special about your questions. You are just using them as an excuse for evasion. If you notice, none of your questions have anything to do with the topic at hand - Ramification of Dharna.

No one is advocating any conspiracy theories. We are trying to discuss scenarios. You can discuss them too if you like. But you would rather give senseless excuses, evasive answers, and general derailment. What have you done so far on this thread apart from obfuscation on purpose?

Your questions are not a heaven-sent argument.

Typical PTI-wala attitude. Just plain dumb and senseless.

I now rather pass these threads.....No point in discussing if there is no one is willing to engage in a constructive argument.

I have given some scenarios and would like your input. You can ignore @Leader type posters who contribute nothing but obfuscation.
 
There is nothing special about your questions. You are just using them as an excuse for evasion. If you notice, none of your questions have anything to do with the topic at hand - Ramification of Dharna.

No one is advocating any conspiracy theories. We are trying to discuss scenarios. You can discuss them too if you like. But you would rather give senseless excuses, evasive answers, and general derailment. What have you done so far on this thread apart from obfuscation on purpose?

Your questions are not a heaven-sent argument.

Typical PTI-wala attitude. Just plain dumb and senseless.



I have given some scenarios and would like your input. You can ignore @Leader type posters who contribute nothing but obfuscation.

Which is why I see fit to take him out of this thread while we discuss actual scenarios in a more educated manner.
 

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