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Prove your loyalty to Kashmiri Muslims

Do you support Kashmiri Muslim independence from India?


  • Total voters
    55
At the time of independence, it was clearly understood that India had set out to be a secular democratic republic and that people of all religions would be given complete parity in their residence in India. Today, 75 years later, a virulent set of political Hindus has created a completely unhealthy atmosphere in the country, creating hatred against one section of the population for their own political gains. Should we change?
I mean, even before independence when Congress won the elections in British India, they gave Muslims hell. Maybe it's just impossible for a Muslim majority state to peacefully coexist in a union with India.

Perhaps if India were to apply the Pakistani model to Kashmir - make it a basically independent state like AJK whose military and affairs are managed in Islamabad/Delhi - we could see peace in the region.

And policies like rounding up kids and beating them, "encounters," cutting off internet, etc. could be stopped, followed by a demilitarisation.

The best thing to do is let them vote for their fate per UNSC resolution 80.
 
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Often we see Indian members here claiming that they oppose Sanghis but remain silent when it is time to talk about the aspirations of the Kashmiri Muslims.

We cannot be ambivalent in our stance.

We need to call a spade a spade.

Kashmiri Muslims need their freedom from the Hindu India.

@Joe Shearer @jamahir @Naofumi @xeuss @DrJekyll

There's another option.
How about actually asking them what they want?

Considering India shouts to the world about being the largest democracy in the world,
And, Pakistan keeps trying to be a good democracy despite hiccups every other decade.
How about we stop pretending to be democrats, but actually act like democrats.


Scotland has held around 3 independence referendums since 1979, that's true democracy.

There have been around 29 independence referendums in the world since the year 2000, that's just in the previous 22 years, and many more before that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_referendum

So, let's not pretend to be democracies, but act like democracies.


If people are scared of losing it all, then hold 5 separate referendums in the regions of Kashmir Valley, Azad Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh and Gilgit Baltistan.
Let the people of the regions choose their own futures.

Demanding and expecting them to remain with India or Pakistan is selfish, undemocratic and with tens of thousands of horrific deaths reflects lack of respect for human rights.
 
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There's another option.
How about actually asking them what they want?

Considering India shouts to the world about being the largest democracy in the world,
And, Pakistan keeps trying to be a good democracy despite hiccups every other decade.
How about we stop pretending to be democrats, but actually act like democrats.


Scotland has held around 3 independence referendums since 1979, that's true democracy.

There have been around 29 independence referendums in the world since the year 2000, that's just in the previous 22 years, and many more before that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_referendum

So, let's not pretend to be democracies, but act like democracies.


If people are scared of losing it all, then hold 5 separate referendums in the regions of Kashmir Valley, Azad Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh and Gilgit Baltistan.
Let the people of the regions choose their own futures.

Demanding and expecting them to remain with India or Pakistan is selfish, undemocratic and with tens of thousands of horrific deaths reflects lack of respect for human rights.

My proposal is simple. It based on Kosovo model.

Kashmir becomes a fully independent state like Kosovo.

Then Kashmir may opt to join Pakistan if both parties agree. This is similar to Kosovo joining Albania.

I do not want Indo-Pak relations to delay Kashmir's independence.

Kashmir issue would only be resolved by use of aggression. Period. No other way.

Unfortunately you may be right. Both Sanghis and non-sanghis are united in this case. They just play good cop, bad cop.
 
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My proposal is simple. It based on Kosovo model.

Kashmir becomes a fully independent state like Kosovo.

Then Kashmir may opt to join Pakistan if both parties agree. This is similar to Kosovo joining Albania.

I do not want Indo-Pak relations to delay Kashmir's independence.

In life, there is no such thing as like for like.
You find appropriate solutions for the problems on hand.

If you feel your solution is a better option, then great, I provided a solution taking into account the history of the conflict and something that is more likely to be acceptable, and something that is fair.

Any solution that respects the wishes of the people of Jammu and Kashmir, and stops their sufferings is acceptable to me, and I would think anyone with a heart.
 
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In life, there is no such thing as like for like.
You find appropriate solutions for the problems on hand.

If you feel your solution is a better option, then great, I provided a solution taking into account the history of the conflict and something that is more likely to be acceptable, and something that is fair.

Any solution that respects the wishes of the people of Jammu and Kashmir, and stops their sufferings is acceptable to me, and I would think anyone with a heart.

I am not opposing your proposal and the end result of your proposal and mine may be the same.

My only concern is the timeline. Freedom of Kashmiris has been held hostage to India-Pakistan relations for 75 years now.
 
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My proposal is simple. It based on Kosovo model.

Kashmir becomes a fully independent state like Kosovo.

Then Kashmir may opt to join Pakistan if both parties agree. This is similar to Kosovo joining Albania.

I do not want Indo-Pak relations to delay Kashmir's independence.



Unfortunately you may be right. Both Sanghis and non-sanghis are united in this case. They just play good cop, bad cop.
But independence of a princely state is not part of the partition plan.
 
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Kashmiris don't have brain otherwise they would have gotten out of this mess way earlier, they think their political aspirations matter when two nuclear states are squeezing them from both end
 
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I mean, even before independence when Congress won the elections in British India, they gave Muslims hell. Maybe it's just impossible for a Muslim majority state to peacefully coexist in a union with India.
I don't know where and when and how you got this nugget, but it is completely incorrect. If you are referring to the disagreements within the coalition governments formed in 1937, then you should look at the statistics first. If you are referring to anything else, to communal riots, for instance, this was not marked by anything to note. There was no reason for the Congress to 'give Muslims hell', if you go by the election results, as the Muslim League contested and won 25% of reserved Muslim seats, the Congress contested 58 and won around half that number - I can look it up and tell you - and the majority, about 60% + seats, were won by independent provincial parties; in my own Bengal, Sher-e-Bangal Fazlul Huq won, with his Krishak Praja Party, and formed the government. Out of 1500 seats, the Congress won nearly 800; of the restricted nearly 500 reserved Muslim seats, the Muslim League won 100+.

What you are referring to is not clear.

The major communal riot was the Great Calcutta Killing of 1946, where the chief minister, Suhrawardy, responded to the call for a Direct Action Day by unleashing violence. It is on record that for the first day and a half, who were completely dominant, and who died. You can look it up for yourself. Subsequent riots in 1947 were certainly not one-sided.
Perhaps if India were to apply the Pakistani model to Kashmir - make it a basically independent state like AJK whose military and affairs are managed in Islamabad/Delhi - we could see peace in the region.
This was the original condition of the accession by the Maharaja to India.
I can reproduce for your information both the Instrument and the Schedule to it, that defined the powers to be exercised by the Central Government as Defence, External Affairs and Communications, and a few miscellaneous provisions.

It was not implemented due to the Maharaja and to Sheikh Abdullah, who then took the vast bulk of the powers retained by the Maharaja, and handed it over to a J&K State Legislature, whose working was to be defined by the J&K Constituent Assembly.
And policies like rounding up kids and beating them, "encounters," cutting off internet, etc. could be stopped, followed by a demilitarisation.
The demilitarisation apart, everyone opposed to Sanghi ideas of government would agree to this.

Considering the attempts by external forces to alter the circumstances by force, first, in 1947 - 48, then in 1965, where the entire effort has been carefully recorded on the Pakistani side itself, and thereafter continuously from 1971 onwards to date, how would demilitarisation work?
The best thing to do is let them vote for their fate per UNSC resolution 80.
I have already gone on record on various very long exchanges about the Indian stand on this, that is not the Sangh Parivar stand but is based on a clear record of events well-documented by all and still available.
 
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The nightmares of colonization drove the congress party to make India into a (semi-federal) union. I would prefer India to be a confederation :cheers:

PS: Yes, I know that it will happen when pigs fly :laugh:
 
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The nightmares of colonization drove the congress party to make India into a (semi-federal) union. I would prefer India to be a confederation :cheers:

PS: Yes, I know that it will happen when pigs fly :laugh:
federation doesn't solve basic political structural problems that india has
 
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federation doesn't solve basic political structural problems that india has
Problems are often subjective. There is no silver bullet to solve all problems given that people may never agree upon what problems are to begin with.

A Confederation is the type of union that will give the quasi nation states that make up India their due liberty. This is my subjective opinion. :cheers:
 
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I have already gone on record on various very long exchanges about the Indian stand on this, that is not the Sangh Parivar stand but is based on a clear record of events well-documented by all and still available.

Except that those "clear record of events well-documented by all and still available" only prove that Kashmir does not belong to India and that Kashmiris have every right to decide their own future !

How are you sir? .. Really nice to see you here after a long time :cheers:
 
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Except that those "clear record of events well-documented by all and still available" only prove that Kashmir does not belong to India and that Kashmiris have every right to decide their own future !

How are you sir? .. Really nice to see you here after a long time :cheers:
Think of the angel and there he is.

I was thinking precisely of you. How nice to hear from you!
 
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The nightmares of colonization drove the congress party to make India into a (semi-federal) union. I would prefer India to be a confederation :cheers:

PS: Yes, I know that it will happen when pigs fly :laugh:
The original intention was considerably watered down in the making of the constitution. It is weird that we should be discussing this on PDF. Much the same discussion is going on in a private forum.

federation doesn't solve basic political structural problems that india has
And what are these?

Problems are often subjective. There is no silver bullet to solve all problems given that people may never agree upon what problems are to begin with.

A Confederation is the type of union that will give the quasi nation states that make up India their due liberty. This is my subjective opinion. :cheers:
You are aware, of course, that contrary to the spewings of an apparent false-flagger, a particularly obnoxious troll, Kashmir was one of several states that were given the Sadr-e-Riyasat position instead of a Governor, and was also one of several states, the same as the previous bunch, to be offered the right to write a constitution of their own, subject to the provisions of the national constitution.

This would effectively laid the foundation of your confederation.

If you ask people like YLH, he would say that even the benefits of Pakistan might have been achieved through a Canadian kind of 'consociational' constitution and structure and processes.
 
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