Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Silicon0000]

Forget any serious development on AZM FGF till India make a serious attempt in aquiring their FGF and as soon as India aquire FGF you will be surprise to see Pak development speed and in 2-3 years you will see some form of it in pak colors.

Jab tak sar par na pare hum ne Kuch nahi karna aur jab sar par pare to dunia ko hairan kardena. Hum aise hi Hain. Unfortunately.

 

[Akh1112]

Hi, older block JF-17s cannot be upgraded to Block 3. In addition, I believe F-16s cannot be rebuilt over and over like Mirages. To what extent the earliest F-16s can be kept flying, particularly with rather higher use-age against India in recent months, is open to question.

Pakistan isn't in peace time really, there are constant tensions at the borders. This means using up far more flight hours. How long will Pakistan keep the oldest F-16s flying? This is not even discussing F-16 supply issues that could crop up in the near future, once US doesn't need Pakistan's help in AFG.



The third option is to build an Azm with the JF-17's general FCS, radar, EW, etc (from Block 3) and put it in a larger and more stealthier airframe with a WS-10 /WS-15 engine. Basically going the Super Hornet route.

This is possible in 5-6 years. And would allow the continuation of a local manufactured fighter, unlike with the other options, which will essentially be either manufactured in China or locally assembled.

Meaning, Pakistan would be going two steps back from building its own fighters to essentially importing fighters from broad.

"Hi, older block JF-17s cannot be upgraded to Block 3"

What? The point of the JF-17 was literally to have a fighter that could be sufficient for today's needs but be upgraded for the needs of tomorrow. There is literally nothing to say it couldn't be upgraded to III standard, sure, you don't get ALL of the modifications, however, you would get the more important ones, i.e Radar or ECM suite.


"Pakistan isn't in peace time really, there are constant tensions at the borders. This means using up far more flight hours. How long will Pakistan keep the oldest F-16s flying? This is not even discussing F-16 supply issues that could crop up in the near future, once US doesn't need Pakistan's help in AFG."

How long is a piece of string? There is literally no answer to this, the most logical response to this would be "as long as the airframes can fly." There is no reason for the PAF to dump F-16's, some of our most elite sqn's operate it and have decades of experience with it. The experience is what adds to their lethality, simply swapping them to another platform could have a negative effect, albeit unlikely, however, once again, theres no logical reasoning for us to retire our falcons prematurely.

"The third option is to build an Azm with the JF-17's general FCS, radar, EW, etc (from Block 3) and put it in a larger and more stealthier airframe with a WS-10 /WS-15 engine. Basically going the Super Hornet route."


So uhm what you are pretty much proposing is the FC-31, that in itself has its limitations, see the weapons bay, it CANNOT fit stuff like ra'ad. Having a deep strike aircraft that cannot perform such a role seems kind of fruitless. A replacement for the Mirages that is not as potent in terms of strike as the Mirages is the best way of putting this.


"This is possible in 5-6 years. And would allow the continuation of a local manufactured fighter, unlike with the other options, which will essentially be either manufactured in China or locally assembled."


Buying a fighter with foreign inputs is effectively local assembly though? If you think PAC can go alone on this, you would be delusional. AZM will have external inputs, as we have seen, the Chinese are already engaged in AZM so like, i'm going to assume it'll share inputs from the FC-31 and J-20 with PAF specific equipment which would literally result in local assembly/some manufacturing inputs, i.e locally manufactured(not designed) radar or parts of the airframe. One very big thing to look into would be the type of stealth coating, for example, if anything like other stealth fighters, we would be using baked in fiber mat coatings, something PAC does not have the capability to do. I pretty much think it'll result in local assembly with some inputs being handed over to PAC so that they can label it "indigenous" to appease the population.

 

[Armchair]

you don't get ALL of the modifications, however, you would get the more important ones, i.e Radar or ECM suite.

Ah, jarring to the eyes reading bold - to compensate for something it seems. Radar on Block 3 being fitted to older blocks or ECM - do you have any evidence for this? Perhaps you need to study about the cooling requirements of AESA radars and their close integration with ECM on modern jets.

I'll leave the rest of the rambling for someone else to correct, tedious to try to teach someone something with that attitude. Delusional and moronic comments. Let aside keeping flying airframes:

the most logical response to this would be "as long as the airframes can fly."

This is not a 1980s corolla that you keep flying as long as it doesn't break down... again what to do with delusional and moronic comments like this... can't change people with an attitude problem.

Block 1/2 cannot be converted to Block 3. You can try to do bits and pieces, but the gap between them is too big. Airframes are different even if they look the same. There is also something called airframe life. This may require further reading for some.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Yeah so we're definitely gonna need some sort of MMRCA in addition to AZM.

Because JF17 can only go so far. It's lightweight.

Mirages and F16 won't be here forever. So we're gonna medium weight multiroles of our own.

Hi, older block JF-17s cannot be upgraded to Block 3. In addition, I believe F-16s cannot be rebuilt over and over like Mirages. To what extent the earliest F-16s can be kept flying, particularly with rather higher use-age against India in recent months, is open to question.

Pakistan isn't in peace time really, there are constant tensions at the borders. This means using up far more flight hours. How long will Pakistan keep the oldest F-16s flying? This is not even discussing F-16 supply issues that could crop up in the near future, once US doesn't need Pakistan's help in AFG.



The third option is to build an Azm with the JF-17's general FCS, radar, EW, etc (from Block 3) and put it in a larger and more stealthier airframe with a WS-10 /WS-15 engine. Basically going the Super Hornet route.

This is possible in 5-6 years. And would allow the continuation of a local manufactured fighter, unlike with the other options, which will essentially be either manufactured in China or locally assembled.

Meaning, Pakistan would be going two steps back from building its own fighters to essentially importing fighters from broad.

Forget any serious development on AZM FGF till India make a serious attempt in aquiring their FGF and as soon as India aquire FGF you will be surprise to see Pak development speed and in 2-3 years you will see some form of it in pak colors.

Jab tak sar par na pare hum ne Kuch nahi karna aur jab sar par pare to dunia ko hairan kardena. Hum aise hi Hain. Unfortunately.

Sooooo fkin tru man, unfirtunately.
However, this time on paper at least. PAF says they are serious about AZM.

I feel that way about PakMil industriss as well. So lazy and every effort is often half assed.

 

[Armchair]

Yeah so we're definitely gonna need some sort of MMRCA in addition to AZM.

Because JF17 can only go so far. It's lightweight.

Mirages and F16 won't be here forever. So we're gonna medium weight multiroles of our own.


Sooooo fkin tru man, unfirtunately.
However, this time on paper at least. PAF says they are serious about AZM.

I feel that way about PakMil industriss as well. So lazy and every effort is often half assed.

Exactly my thoughts and here is what messiach had to say about how things will evolve in the future:

Keep watching block-3 evolve, that would give you leads to Pak NGF. I know you are desperate to know but we carry professional obligations.

they are serious about AZM.

The other interesting thing is - PAF sees Azm as something that can replace F-16s. So a light weight Block 3 won't can't really replace that. So you need something better.

 

[Akh1112]

Ah, jarring to the eyes reading bold - to compensate for something it seems. Radar on Block 3 being fitted to older blocks or ECM - do you have any evidence for this? Perhaps you need to study about the cooling requirements of AESA radars and their close integration with ECM on modern jets.

I'll leave the rest of the rambling for someone else to correct, tedious to try to teach someone something with that attitude. Delusional and moronic comments. Let aside keeping flying airframes:

This is not a 1980s corolla that you keep flying as long as it doesn't break down... again what to do with delusional and moronic comments like this... can't change people with an attitude problem.

Block 1/2 cannot be converted to Block 3. You can try to do bits and pieces, but the gap between them is too big. Airframes are different even if they look the same. There is also something called airframe life. This may require further reading for some.

Actually, its not to compensate for anything its to make it easier to distinguish between my comments and yours.


Thank you for letting me know i should study up a bit more, however, i think id reverse that back onto you. Lets talk about cooling requirements. Can you quickly just point out why the LKF601E cannot be used on previous blocks despite the manufacturer confirming it can? Is there something you know that they do not? You clearly know more than them since you have made the claim that an AESA cannot be retrofitted. Ill take your word over the manufacturer of course.

"I'll leave the rest of the rambling for someone else to correct, tedious to try to teach someone something with that attitude. Delusional and moronic comments. Let aside keeping flying airframes:"

I am kind of starting to doubt you even have two brain cells to rub together.


"This is not a 1980s corolla that you keep flying as long as it doesn't break down... again what to do with delusional and moronic comments like this... can't change people with an attitude problem."

I agree, cannot change people with an attitude problem, keep living in your dream world where the PAF is getting F-35's, SU-35's, AH-1Z's, F-16V's. I wonder, maybe the US may decide to gift the PN their small fleet of Zumwalts too, perhaps we can pick up a few carriers and their air wing too.


However, if we do look at this, can you give me a single reason why if there is sufficient flow of spares and supporting equipment, why cant the PAF continue to fly their falcons til the end of their airframe life? What is going to happen with them since you clearly have infinite knowledge and an insider giving you all of this information.


Perhaps you might find that Bangladesh Defense Forum may be a bit more receptive to your idiocy and claims, maybe you can start a few threads saying that you guys are getting a squadron of F-22's to replace your F-7s.

 

[Deino]

The third option is to build an Azm with the JF-17's general FCS, radar, EW, etc (from Block 3) and put it in a larger and more stealthier airframe with a WS-10 /WS-15 engine. Basically going the Super Hornet route.

This is possible in 5-6 years. And would allow the continuation of a local manufactured fighter, unlike with the other options, which will essentially be either manufactured in China or locally assembled.

Meaning, Pakistan would be going two steps back from building its own fighters to essentially importing fighters from broad.

No it is not, this "possible in 5-6 years" is an as ridiculous idea as India wet-dreams, the AMCA will fly in 2022 or the tejas can so much easily transformed into the twin-engined Orca until 2025.

Also You still don't get it?? The WS-15 is out of reach for Pakistan at least for the next decades and I'm almost sure the same applies to the WS-10.

Anyway you still repeat this theory over and over again but always avoid any explanation HOW this could happen and WHO shall pay for this?? Did you ever check how much the development of the Super Hornet costed and even if not 1:1 transferable, you can at least get an imagination of the overall sum in relation. As such again: China or CAC won't pay for the development for only a few dozen of this sort of Super-Thunder and Pakistan cannot afford this alone, let alone the engine question is not solved.

Sometimes I have the feeling a few of you think aeronautical design is just some plug&play or like uploading of a new App on the mobile, but I'm sure this post again will be taken as an aggression, I should prove why they cannot and anyway I'm a stupid German!

Come on, explain how this could happen ...

 

[Akh1112]

No it is not, this "possible in 5-6 years" is an as ridiculous idea as India wet-dreams, the AMCA will fly in 2022 or the tejas can so much easily transformed into the twin-engined Orca until 2025.

Also You still don't get it?? The WS-15 is out of reach for Pakistan at least for the next decades and I'm almost sure the same applies to the WS-10.

Anyway you still repeat this theory over and over again but always avoid any explanation HOW this could happen and WHO shall pay for this?? Did you ever check how much the development of the Super Hornet costed and even if not 1:1 transferable, you can at least get an imagination of the overall sum in relation. As such again: China or CAC won't pay for the development for only a few dozen of this sort of Super-Thunder and Pakistan cannot afford this alone, let alone the engine question is not solved.

Sometimes I have the feeling a few of you think aeronautical design is just some plug&play or like uploading of a new App on the mobile, but I'm sure this post again will be taken as an aggression, I should prove why they cannot and anyway I'm a stupid German!

Come on, explain how this could happen ...

im still waiting for an explanation from him too haha, but what do we know. we are delusional :p

 

[KaiserX]

Off the shelf purchase of J-31s would not be a substitute for the Project Azm program. Both will be able to compliment one another. PAF would def require an initial order of 40-50 J-31s which may increase to a total of 75-110. Dont know about Raad integration in the J-31 but it does not seem to have the same low flight clearance issues as the JF-17 since it is a larger aircraft. So being able to carry cruise missiles the size of Raad externally is not a known issue.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

You suggesting JF17 might evolve into a medium multi role??

Exactly my thoughts and here is what messiach had to say about how things will evolve in the future:





The other interesting thing is - PAF sees Azm as something that can replace F-16s. So a light weight Block 3 won't can't really replace that. So you need something better.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi, older block JF-17s cannot be upgraded to Block 3. In addition, I believe F-16s cannot be rebuilt over and over like Mirages. To what extent the earliest F-16s can be kept flying, particularly with rather higher use-age against India in recent months, is open to question.

Pakistan isn't in peace time really, there are constant tensions at the borders. This means using up far more flight hours. How long will Pakistan keep the oldest F-16s flying? This is not even discussing F-16 supply issues that could crop up in the near future, once US doesn't need Pakistan's help in AFG.



The third option is to build an Azm with the JF-17's general FCS, radar, EW, etc (from Block 3) and put it in a larger and more stealthier airframe with a WS-10 /WS-15 engine. Basically going the Super Hornet route.

This is possible in 5-6 years. And would allow the continuation of a local manufactured fighter, unlike with the other options, which will essentially be either manufactured in China or locally assembled.

Meaning, Pakistan would be going two steps back from building its own fighters to essentially importing fighters from broad.

Off the shelf purchase of J-31s would not be a substitute for the Project Azm program. Both will be able to compliment one another. PAF would def require an initial order of 40-50 J-31s which may increase to a total of 75-110. Dont know about Raad integration in the J-31 but it does not seem to have the same low flight clearance issues as the JF-17 since it is a larger aircraft. So being able to carry cruise missiles the size of Raad externally is not a known issue.

It's important to remember that Pakistan's industrial/technology planning and military planning happens from the same palm. In other words, if for some reason urgency becomes a factor (i.e., a military issue), then it'll basically shape the development side.

The last CAS, ACM Sohail Aman, started with the goal of developing an FGFA alone, but he entertained the idea of collaboration and partnerships (with Turkey and China). The current CAS, ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan, had liked the idea of developing an FGFA alone, but he said that as long as the design is ITAR-free, they'll be happy to roll into a consortium. Basically, AZM is heading towards a consortium direction.

In other words, to save on time and cost, Pakistan is not going to manage the bulk of the design work or even much of the technology development. It'll help with production (by taking up a sizable % of the workshare, and ideally, contribute to the supply chain of all primary partners).

I wouldn't say it's a step backwards from the JF-17. Rather, it's a lateral step or continuation of what PAC is kind of doing already. If anything, if the PAF can access China's supply channel by manufacturing stabilizer, fuselage, etc, PAC will end up with a lot more work on its hands.

Basically, the PAF has to choose between:

1. Expediency, but probably no major workshare output (China)
2. Major workshare output, but a slow and higher-risk project (Turkey)

However, while China would say no to placing some of its military supply chain in Pakistan, it may entertain the idea for commercial aircraft. If, by choosing the FC-31, Pakistan can get a 100% price offset through commercial aircraft, helicopters, etc, then it could be a good choice.

Yes, it won't drive the developmental track directly, but if China agrees to $10 b in aviation purchases from Pakistan over 15-20 years, we can channel that offset into investment, encouraging the private sector, etc.

Those steps will help our economy, and we'll actually end up with companies that can drive valuable R&D.

@JamD @Syed1. @The Accountant @airomerix

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Project Azm will be a modified J31. Period.

China may have start to safeguard their high end toys but Pakistan will always be the first export customer in forseeable future.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Project Azm will be a modified J31. Period.

China may have start to safeguard their high end toys but Pakistan will always be the first export customer in forseeable future.

Well for what it's worth, the FC-31 was designed for export. So even though the PLAN is picking up the design for the J-35, I think there'll ultimately be two branches -- FC-31 and J-35 -- with the latter having all the modifications for aircraft carrier ops, PLAN requests, etc.

 

[Scorpiooo]

So getting FC31 means AZM will end??

Few J31 can be mid term solution until long term project become reality
Same like F7pg induction then thandars program

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Slight tangent but I think PAF should also look into the developing AI for wingman drones. That will help us increase our overall squadron/fighter aircraft strength. Which in my view at least is dismally low compared to our neighbors(also in my very CONTROVERSIAL view) China won't always be a friend. Also India's allies given the South China scenario could also be belligerent to us.

Few J31 can be mid term solution until long term project become reality
Same like F7pg induction then thandars program

Yeah a couple dozen should be fine. As long as they don't distract PAF/PAC completely from AZM and Medium Weight Multirole