Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Foxtrot Delta]

With friendly countries like China, Turkey, United States and South Korea its not that hard.

But if looked at pakistan and china solely its very easy for both of them. Aircraft can be improved in blocks just like jf-17 is slowly becoming on par with F-16 block 60

 

[Syed1.]

I would love to see a Pakistani 5th Gen fighter, but the countries who have built them have decades of aerospace experience behind them. I hope our lofty aim does not lead to the plan's demise.


IMO since we have experience of 4th Gen fighters with the Thunder, a better more incremental step would have been to aim for a Thunder Next Gen... call it 4.9 Gen or whatever, but have all the features that the likes of Rafale and SU-35 possess plus a little bit more borrowing from J-20/J-31.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[V. Makarov]

We have zero industrialization in the country. We will buy a smokey engine from China, avionics from France, software will be written by the Chinese. We cannot make our air to air missiles or radars.

Even if we are able to make a flying machine, the stealth technology, the jamming technology, special weapons, special targeting pods, night time tracking and communication systems are all beyond Pakistan's grasp and for that we need backing of an economic and technological superpower like China, Russia or USA.

Its better to buy 5th gen fighters from the Chinese on deferred payment in the coming years.

 

[araz]

We have zero industrialization in the country. We will buy a smokey engine from China, avionics from France, software will be written by the Chinese. We cannot make our air to air missiles or radars.

Even if we are able to make a flying machine, the stealth technology, the jamming technology, special weapons, special targeting pods, night time tracking and communication systems are all beyond Pakistan's grasp and for that we need backing of an economic and technological superpower like China, Russia or USA.

Its better to buy 5th gen fighters from the Chinese on deferred payment in the coming years.

We need to fall before we fly. We did not have any aviation/armaments experience in the 60s and hence our leaders are on record as having said" we can buy an atom bomb if India has made one". Post 65 we progressed on to over hauling and establishing our armaments industry. We built up on that experience and learnt how to design and modify simple aircrafts like Mashaq. We then progressed on to learning to design and then fly our own plane we the help of our Chinese brothers.
The reason to go back in history is to show that there is a history to our development. We may not be able to design our own 5th gen fighter but really we wont know till we make that effort. There was a recent interview from an Air Marshall who said we got some radios to incorporate into our Mirages in the 80s and could not do so. Do you think things are the same today? The PAF seems sure it can get the job done. Even if it cannot we will get a semi stealth fighter which will be improved subsequently.
The problem with buying of the shelf is you gain nothing from that capability. You are forever dependent on the supplier. I think we have beyond that stage into a new stage where we are not too bothered whether we get the 16s or not. We were initially desperate for any hand me downs that the Chinese/Russians could give us. Today we go and demand the best to incorporate into our platforms. Where the chinese or Russians cannot provide it we can incorporate EU Subsystems into our platform. Because of our efforts people are approaching us to be a part of our programmes. Would this have happened if we had just sat back and acquired the 16s. Sure the quality would have been better but we would have been forever dependent on them to use whatever they provide. Today we can go and demand from the Chinese brothers to provide us the PL15 and incorporate it on whichever platform that we want(16s excluded).
We should now strive for independence from providers and go for subsystem to improve our base platform.
A

 

[TNT]

In reality it may take 2 decades to make it operational, by that time 6th gen jets would be introduced.
I always wanted Pakistan to improve incrementally. Its difficult togo from JF17 to 5th gen. Instead we should have focused on a 4.5++ gen, with stealth properties. Something that could replace F16s. Call it a JF19, a medium weight fighter with higher payload and endurance. We could have an integrated network with JF17 and other ground and air assets. We could have instead bought 5th gen from china. Combining all the knowledge of our own 4.5++ and a chinese 5th gen, we could then proceed to a 6th gen indigenous fighter.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

In reality it may take 2 decades to make it operational, by that time 6th gen jets would be introduced.
I always wanted Pakistan to improve incrementally. Its difficult togo from JF17 to 5th gen. Instead we should have focused on a 4.5++ gen, with stealth properties. Something that could replace F16s. Call it a JF19, a medium weight fighter with higher payload and endurance. We could have an integrated network with JF17 and other ground and air assets. We could have instead bought 5th gen from china. Combining all the knowledge of our own 4.5++ and a chinese 5th gen, we could then proceed to a 6th gen indigenous fighter.

What if they make 5th gen backbone and get 6th gen off the shelf???

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

In my honest opinion a very tough and difficult undertaking. Pakistan must work closely with China which it probably already is.

Turkey too. They have some know how of F35s

 

[StormBreaker]

Hi,

What if I said we are targeting the 6th gen and foregoing the 5th gen---!

As for the J20---it meets the needs of our arena---there is no need for super cruise---.

All these blind writers ignore ACM Sohail’s words “5++Gen”. 6th gen is not even a standard currently, all professionals refer it to 5+

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Hi,

They stole it as much as they could---. Don't you hear the US congress getting mad at the chinese and Trump as well---. 5-10 years ago that used to be 'the news'.

Now stealing US technology and building on it are two different things---. You steal a gold coin from the Dragon's Tresure---that is one thing---but to spend it is another thing---.

The US Threated the chinese---" we know you stole our F35 technology and made an aircraft out of it---but if you proceeded any further than that we will destroy all your aircraft manufacturing factories "---.

That is why you don't see much of progress made on the J31 after the first flights---.

The americans have a unique habbit---if they want to---they would let you invest heavily into it till the last moment and then come down hard on you----.

China had to swallow the bitter pill---keep on playing with the J20---.

Now OTOH---if pakistan wants to do something with the J31---it will---pakistan is head strong enough if need be---.

So u think China got afraid of US?

 

[StormBreaker]

And for God sake, there is a AZM thread. Don’t make new threads for articles from sleeping beauties who report news months later

Hi,

They stole it as much as they could---. Don't you hear the US congress getting mad at the chinese and Trump as well---. 5-10 years ago that used to be 'the news'.

Now stealing US technology and building on it are two different things---. You steal a gold coin from the Dragon's Tresure---that is one thing---but to spend it is another thing---.

The US Threated the chinese---" we know you stole our F35 technology and made an aircraft out of it---but if you proceeded any further than that we will destroy all your aircraft manufacturing factories "---.

That is why you don't see much of progress made on the J31 after the first flights---.

The americans have a unique habbit---if they want to---they would let you invest heavily into it till the last moment and then come down hard on you----.

China had to swallow the bitter pill---keep on playing with the J20---.

Now OTOH---if pakistan wants to do something with the J31---it will---pakistan is head strong enough if need be---.

J-31 design was a blessing and wonder in itself, really surprising that China has apparently abandoned it for a new project

 

[Trango Towers]

We have zero industrialization in the country. We will buy a smokey engine from China, avionics from France, software will be written by the Chinese. We cannot make our air to air missiles or radars.

Even if we are able to make a flying machine, the stealth technology, the jamming technology, special weapons, special targeting pods, night time tracking and communication systems are all beyond Pakistan's grasp and for that we need backing of an economic and technological superpower like China, Russia or USA.

Its better to buy 5th gen fighters from the Chinese on deferred payment in the coming years.

The most loser attitude on pdf. Even after so much and even after feb 27. You still write this stuff. I guess gora shahib can sell u shit and u r happy

 

[StormBreaker]

We need to fall before we fly
A

The fall is prevailing from decades buddy

 

[Ultima Thule]

We need something beyond. J-20 lacks features that should be there in a 5th generation jet like super cruise.

Wait for 2023 when WS-15 will be ready, J-20 using a interim engines now (WS-10/AL-31FN)

 

[StormBreaker]

Does China have access to F-35 tech? No. So China can be ruled out.

Turkey has been involved with the F-35 project, so, Pakistan can learn a lot from Turkey's fifth gen fighter.

Just like F-16 was the reference point for the JF-17 project, so shall the F-35 be the reference point for PF-65 Sultan project.

AZM will be a twin heavy, but wouldn’ta twin heavy cost heavily per unit and maintenance? PAF will maintain a raptor sized fleet of AZM at most while we would still need a single engine 5+gen like F-35 is to USA. For that, we must work with turkey as a joint project and involve more countries

Wait for 2023 when WS-15 will be ready, J-20 using a interim engines now (WS-10/AL-31FN)

The real deal isn’t WS-15 rather WS-19, which will be ultimate engine for J-20

 

[sohail.ishaque]

Hi,
The US Threated the chinese---" we know you stole our F35 technology and made an aircraft out of it---but if you proceeded any further than that we will destroy all your aircraft manufacturing factories "---.

I never knew that China was so afraid of the Mighty USA. Just wonder why they stole the tech in the first place if they were so afraid of them.