Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[The Raven]

Don’t want to hurt your sentiments but just because PAF is extremely secret about its home grown development in the work, doesn’t mean we are far from producing our own systems, at the present, we aren’t mass producing but surprise is in for all.

Stay tuned
PAF won’t disappoint. And dont think that i am just throwing a lie or something, You will see soon enough

I'm well aware of that. This is not a question about whether the PAF is making efforts in R&D, that's completely obvious given the whole project Azm initiative and AvRID. But some people think that means we can make a giant leap from having never designed a fighter, engine, radar, avionics, weapon systems etc., all the way to a FGFA with directed energy weapons. Good luck with that. It's clear that even despite our own initiatives in R&D and investments in human capital via the aviation city, we're still going to need external collaborators for the most critical parts of the FGFA, especially the engine. I believe we can do a significant amount in design and development of the airframe layout, conceptual analysis, and design refinement, and by all accounts that's already occurred. But for the powerplant and most of the avionics, we're still going to need to leverage external expertise, whether that's either direct off the shelf systems acquisition and integration or R&D consultation is yet to be seen.

 

[War Historian]

Don’t want to hurt your sentiments but just because PAF is extremely secret about its home grown development in the work, doesn’t mean we are far from producing our own systems, at the present, we aren’t mass producing but surprise is in for all.

Stay tuned
PAF won’t disappoint. And dont think that i am just throwing a lie or something, You will see soon enough

Sure Sir, we all hope for the best things comes out of this Pak Ukraine cooperation on aero engines field. Keeping secrecy is need of hour. Because i told you earlier many friends and foe will try to sabotage this kind of development. Because they never want us out of their dependency. That's a fact. In this world every nation is looking for their own interests. So we can't blame them ,but we have to start to work for our self reliance. So our next generations will be really independent from any black mailing.
At this stage Ukrainian also in deep waters because of civil war and ethnic russians insurgents. But if we can offer them a good package they can trained our engineers and scientists in their universities and research institutions.they can help us, to make RD-93 for efficient and better fuel economy.
So we must keep this deal behind the close doors until we made any significant break through on new high thrust engine development for AZM and next engine upgrade for JFT. Thanks

 

[StormBreaker]

I'm well aware of that. This is not a question about whether the PAF is making efforts in R&D, that's completely obvious given the whole project Azm initiative and AvRID. But some people think that means we can make a giant leap from having never designed a fighter, engine, radar, avionics, weapon systems etc., all the way to a FGFA with directed energy weapons. Good luck with that. It's clear that even despite our own initiatives in R&D and investments in human capital via the aviation city, we're still going to need external collaborators for the most critical parts of the FGFA, especially the engine. I believe we can do a significant amount in design and development of the airframe layout, conceptual analysis, and design refinement, and by all accounts that's already occurred. But for the powerplant and most of the avionics, we're still going to need to leverage external expertise, whether that's either direct off the shelf systems acquisition and integration or R&D consultation is yet to be seen.

How cute

Agree with you but I guess you aren’t following things closely which is not a problem at all though. PAF has been into research and development of other things (Apart from Thunder), from some decades. PDF is the book for you.

External help from other countries, no one I guess on PDF ever rejected that idea. It is inevitable, We have got complete and almost understanding of developing a 4-4.5th gen aircraft, However we lack infrastructure. Developing a 5th gen is totally something else especially in terms of avionics and sensor fusion/AI. China will be there to help, so will be Turkey and possibly someone from Europe and Ukraine.

plz read 1

Yes, and like i said before, and in another thread some weeks ago which was about China vs USA battle over a Ukrainian Engine Development and Industry complex solution firm that Ukraine could very well be sought for building or expanding PAC for Helicopter Maintenance/Modernization complex, Or maybe some sort of complex for AZM NGFA, could be for Engine repairing/designing/testing.

My strongest guess is that Ukraine is being sought for the above mentioned reasons to build some complex.

My guess is definitely Ukraine is getting involved with AZM or maybe in some sort of industrial complex building for PAC or maybe cooperating just for powerplant.

@aliyusuf @HRK

 

[capricorn5192]

I think PAF should work on block building approach like JFT Block 1, 2 & C

 

[Haris Ali2140]

I think PAF should work on block building approach like JFT Block 1, 2 & C

KFX a JV between Indonesia and South Korea has raken similar approach. No internal weapon bays in first block, internal and external bays in block 2 & totally internal weapons in final block.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

READ MY POST 1228:

I think it's too early to jump on TFX bandwagon. But it certainly is not an option to be discounted. I for one see great long term benefit in partnering with Turk brothers.

It might just be a static display gifted by TAI execs to PAC exec and they decided to display it.

Or it could really be an easter egg.

What indeed is significant is that the Ukrainians were touring JF17 factory floor.

Also it'd be nice to see PAC starting a JV with Anotonov on some co-production and co-marketing of a utility/cargo/transport aircraft.

Until we have no concrete evidence that PAF is actually PARTICIPATING in TFX AS A FULL PARTNER, Who in the right kind would erect a small scale model of a foreign Program when you yourself have a program at home which has comoleted preliminary design stage and had been going through further tests since 2017.

Sounds quite the AZM to me, Why would we throw off PAF F-16/JF-17 models in a meeting with Ukraine/Foreign Air force ?
Are we thekaidars of TFX ? The highest form of pride for a nation is it’s own developed item. Let’s say tommorow we buy F-35 or J-20/31, that would still be a “BUY” not a develop. PAF would still proudly keep its thunder model on the table upon official visits because that signifies our worth and capacity. Only thing that can replace that “Self developed” pride from Thunders is none other than AZM, Hence why I think this is not TFX or any other but AZM Fighter

And Please, don’t bring in the usual Ummah or paK-tUrK bhAibHAi.

Think realistically, to the scale of probabilities.

@Trailer23 Kyun bhai ? Aren’t we thaikedars of Turkey and TFX ? Throwing off our national pride Thunder from table model and replacing it with tFx because AZM is a nobody ? I agree with your POV as well about the manufacturer of Scale models although stand colors don’t matter much in this case.

@Dazzler just like me earlier was right to point out the apparent differences of this model in display vs TFX. The nose of TFX seems fatter, AZM’s canopy seems taller, Mid fuselage is quite thinner as compared to TFX.

Plus, Ukraine is no small deal here like Nigeria or Sri Lanka or Azerbaijan. Ukraine is a very important contributor to the world of aviation even post Soviet union. They are manufacturers themselves. Why the hell would we even think of portraying ourselves low by just putting up foreign model when an important delegation visits to us especially from Ukraine ?

My guess is definitely Ukraine is getting involved with AZM or maybe in some sort of industrial complex building for PAC or maybe cooperating just for powerplant.

@aliyusuf @HRK

 

[Basel]

READ MY POST 1228:

I think it's too early to jump on TFX bandwagon. But it certainly is not an option to be discounted. I for one see great long term benefit in partnering with Turk brothers.

It might just be a static display gifted by TAI execs to PAC exec and they decided to display it.

Or it could really be an easter egg.

What indeed is significant is that the Ukrainians were touring JF17 factory floor.

Also it'd be nice to see PAC starting a JV with Anotonov on some co-production and co-marketing of a utility/cargo/transport aircraft.

They can offer replacement of C-130s with JV.

 

[The Raven]

There were news reports about 10 years ago about the Ivchenko Progress AL-25 engine being used as the basis for developing an alternative to the Klimov RD-93 engine. Although this was largely misreporting, as the AL-25 is in a smaller size and thrust class to be used (even as a basis) for the JF-17, the news nonetheless suggested at possible collaboration with Ukraine on engine development. In terms of access to technology, expertise and ToT, this would be a relatively low risk solution; however, the Ukrainian aerospace sector has suffered from stagnation for a significant period, and it remains to be seen whether they have the relevant up to date capacity for next gen engine design and development. Aside from this, the powerplant for the TFX could be an option. This will be the single most critical element for the FGFA.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

I'm well aware of that. This is not a question about whether the PAF is making efforts in R&D, that's completely obvious given the whole project Azm initiative and AvRID. But some people think that means we can make a giant leap from having never designed a fighter, engine, radar, avionics, weapon systems etc., all the way to a FGFA with directed energy weapons. Good luck with that. It's clear that even despite our own initiatives in R&D and investments in human capital via the aviation city, we're still going to need external collaborators for the most critical parts of the FGFA, especially the engine. I believe we can do a significant amount in design and development of the airframe layout, conceptual analysis, and design refinement, and by all accounts that's already occurred. But for the powerplant and most of the avionics, we're still going to need to leverage external expertise, whether that's either direct off the shelf systems acquisition and integration or R&D consultation is yet to be seen.

I think that's the real plan. Make as much as you can in your own country and buy off the shelf which you can't make.

Regarding DEW, I remember previous chief Soheil Aman saying that AZM will have capability to employ directed energy weapons. He never said it will have them from day one.

KFX of Indonesia and South Korea is IMO a perfect example for PAF to follow.

 

[Basel]

There were news reports about 10 years ago about the Ivchenko Progress AL-25 engine being used as the basis for developing an alternative to the Klimov RD-93 engine. Although this was largely misreporting, as the AL-25 is in a smaller size and thrust class to be used (even as a basis) for the JF-17, the news nonetheless suggested at possible collaboration with Ukraine on engine development. In terms of access to technology, expertise and ToT, this would be a relatively low risk solution; however, the Ukrainian aerospace sector has suffered from stagnation for a significant period, and it remains to be seen whether they have the relevant up to date capacity for next gen engine design and development. Aside from this, the powerplant for the TFX could be an option. This will be the single most critical element for the FGFA.

If they can built an engine for T-129s then it will be good start.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Again...how are you qualified? Clearly you have issues with english as you couldn't answer a simple question. Sitting at home point fingers like daddy's little favourite doesnt make you qualified to judge an organisation that with limited resources now owns 58% of jf17 project and bringing out block 3. The same organisation that has armed its drone with home made mini missiles. The same organisation that's setting up universities to develop the pool of talent required for 5th gen. So please go away

Ok so u r clearly an idiot that doesn't deserve the respect I tried to afford u earlier.

Now let's address ur lack of comprehension point by point. Here is what I said...
"My opinion on this is that currently China would be a better choice as far as the engine for Azm NGF is concerned."

Do u know what that means? It means this is MY OPINION. It has nothing to do with PAF. In the next paragraph of that post I explained what I'm basing my opinion on...
"The amount of money China is pumping in R&D of jet engines and the scale at which they are going to manufacture them(for their own needs and for exports) make it a safer option...as opposed to Ukraine that struggled to deliver on its tank orders to Thailand. No doubt Ukraine has a lot to offer but Pak with its limited budget can't afford to play a hand with high risk."

Both of those above are FACTS. China is pumping a ton of money in developing jet engines and does produce them at large scale...while Ukraine's defence related industrial output did suffer due to the war with Russia.

Did u notice the absence of any mentions of PAF...and what PAF should or shouldn't do? No u clearly missed that bcuz my guess is u were dropped on the head as a child.

Now let's look at ur verbal diarrhea...

What makes you qualified more than PAF for such an opinion.

I never said anywhere that I'm more qualified than PAF anywhere. This is a public forum where I'm free to write whatever I want...if u don't like it u can simply f*ck off. No one asked u to quote me. I wasn't even talking to u.

This is an organisation that has built a fighter aircraft when everyone doubted it. Its an organisation the protects the borders when on 0aper they are sitting ducks and you think they have no idea what they are doing?

Did I doubt PAF or JF17? I dare u to find one post...just one...out of all my posts so far...where I doubt the PAF or their capabilities.

Here is ur next gem that despite my attempt to give u a face saving way out...u decided to dig in deeper and manage to become more retarded than before...

Again...how are you qualified? Clearly you have issues with english as you couldn't answer a simple question.

READ AGAIN. I never said anywhere I'm more qualified than PAF or that I'm going to supercede whatever their plans are. Take a few English classes son...they will keep u from looking like a dumbass...or better yet just keep ur mouth shut so no one here has to witness such display of utter stupidity.

Sitting at home point fingers like daddy's little favourite doesnt make you qualified to judge an organisation that with limited resources now owns 58% of jf17 project and bringing out block 3. The same organisation that has armed its drone with home made mini missiles. The same organisation that's setting up universities to develop the pool of talent required for 5th gen.

I didn't point fingers at anyone...not PAF nor anyone else. Nor did I discuss what PAF has done...or not done with its resources. This is more of ur inner retard coming out.

So please go away

I'm fine here...I'm gonna do as I please. But I'll tell u where u r going...u r going on my ignore list for sure. Also u need to go to school and learn English...and manners. Stop wasting ur parent's money and PDF's bandwidth...u sitting in ur parent's basement putting on ur displays of stupidity all over PDF isnt doing anyone any good. I wish there was an IQ test requirement when signing up for PDF...retards like u would've washed straight out.

 

[Cookie Monster]

when a little boy starts with ' you are clearly an idiot' that's where I finished reading.
jog on and get some milk from mommy little boy

Of course u wouldn't want to read...bcuz it shows u a reality u don't want to admit...which is that u r a complete dumbass who started derailing the thread despite the fact that no one was even talking to u. Yet u had to barge in and take a dump all over the place.

@Deino @waz mods plz clean this idiot's filth.

 

[jupiter2007]

We have two drama queens here.

 

[The Eagle]

Members are advised to be civil and avoid personal attacks. Only weak one resort to do so due to lack on intellect & quality posting. Don't be like that. Agree to disagree with respect and move on.

Regards,

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There were news reports about 10 years ago about the Ivchenko Progress AL-25 engine being used as the basis for developing an alternative to the Klimov RD-93 engine. Although this was largely misreporting, as the AL-25 is in a smaller size and thrust class to be used (even as a basis) for the JF-17, the news nonetheless suggested at possible collaboration with Ukraine on engine development. In terms of access to technology, expertise and ToT, this would be a relatively low risk solution; however, the Ukrainian aerospace sector has suffered from stagnation for a significant period, and it remains to be seen whether they have the relevant up to date capacity for next gen engine design and development. Aside from this, the powerplant for the TFX could be an option. This will be the single most critical element for the FGFA.

One route is the extra long one... We recruit Ukrainian experts to visit/live in Pakistan to teach our people and take the lead on research on gas turbines and other engine inputs. It would take a long time for something to materialize -- but better later on than never.

Between the time you start this project and get a serviceable fighter engine, you could develop a long list of things: miniature turbojets and turbofans for cruise missiles and drones; turboprop engines for trainers; turboshaft engines for helicopters; smaller jet engines for trainers and business jets; turbines for ships; energy applications, etc.