Probing 'Hindu terror' cases: Why NIA remains clueless

[Shaurya]

Thats not the bill he was talking about. What you are referring to is a bill in which the majority community in a riot would be looked upon with suspicion with default - which is quite problematic. What he claims is that there is an UPCOMING bill that would arrest hindu saints and sages for pravachans. That is the part I want substantiated.

I believe that it is harmful to throw about patently false claims like this to malign political parties or individuals that you don't like. It gives everyone a skewed notion of the real political climate of the country.

LOOk dude, if you want to talk about secularism and all that, let it be on both the fronts, people like you remain silent and applaud loudly when hindus are bashed or their religion is hurt, why is it that no major newspaper said anything on banning salman rushdie from jaisalmer?? and everyone was talking about giving bharat ratna to MF hussain?? Isn't it odd?? A person like salman rushdie, who is even more popular and well-recognized than hussein was ruled out for giving his views on islam?? and how many times have those who insulted hindus punished?? Where is karuna nidhi who recently insulted Shri Ram?? I am an Indian, I believe in unity but at the same time Im not blind, my ancestors may have been naive enough to not ask such questions, but I have a brain and it compels to ask such questions.

 

[janon]

its not just "problematic"...it will only further alienate the hindus from the rest (muslims and christians)....and the intention of the quite clear..it starts with the assumption that only hindus start riots (which is not quite true when you look at the past history of riots in india), proceeds with the same assumption and ends with the same assumption....

its one of the most communal bills ever drafted, but its no surprise coming from a motley group of minority leaders,leftists and headed by the congress chairperson...

Yes, I know all that. But as I said, thats not what I asked about. I was asking for a backup to the claim that there is an upcoming bill by which hindu saints and sages can be jailed for pravachans. So stop sidestepping the question.

 

[Kazhugu]

Yes, I know all that. But as I said, thats not what I asked about. I was asking for a backup to the claim that there is an upcoming bill by which hindu saints and sages can be jailed for pravachans. So stop sidestepping the question.

you asked two questions...i answered one...and i will leave the other to be answered by him..

 

[janon]

LOOk dude, if you want to talk about secularism and all that, let it be on both the fronts, people like you remain silent and applaud loudly when hindus are bashed or their religion is hurt, why is it that no major newspaper said anything on banning salman rushdie from jaisalmer?? and everyone was talking about giving bharat ratna to MF hussain?? Isn't it odd?? A person like salman rushdie, who is even more popular and well-recognized than hussein was ruled out for giving his views on islam?? and how many times have those who insulted hindus punished?? Where is karuna nidhi who recently insulted Shri Ram?? I am an Indian, I believe in unity but at the same time Im not blind, my ancestors may have been naive enough to not ask such questions, but I have a brain and it compels to ask such questions.

I think I have made my point. You are bringing in strawman arguments now. I didn't talk about "secularism and all that". I didn't talk about any of the points you are talking abuot here. My question was simple. You claimed there is an upcoming bill that would jail hindu saints and sages for pravachans. I asked you to backup that claim. You can't, and instead you are bringing in straw man arguments (use google and find out what that is).

As I said, in future don't make absurd claims like that if they are not true. I know something about India, and that it is impossible to even contemplate a bill like that in a country where practising and professing a religion is a guaranteed fundamental right. When you make up claims like this, about a non existant bill that makes professing a religion criminal, you are spreading about disinformation. Do not do that.

I will not reply to the irrelevant issues that your brought up.

 

[Shaurya]

I think I have made my point. You are bringing in strawman arguments now. I didn't talk about "secularism and all that". I didn't talk about any of the points you are talking abuot here. My question was simple. You claimed there is an upcoming bill that would jail hindu saints and stages for pravachans. I asked you to backup that claim. You can't, and instead you are bringing in straw man arguments (use google and find out whhat that is).

As I said, in future don't make absurd claims like that if they are not true. I know something about India, and that it is impossible to even contemplate a bill like that in a country where practising and professing a religion is a guaranteed fundamental right. When you make up claims like this, about a non existant bill that makes professing a religion irrelevant, you are spreading about disinformation. Do not do that.

I will not reply to the irrelevant issues that your brought up.

I am not making absurd claims, I am just looking for the links as I read that a few months ago and therefore I asked you to wait, If you cant understand english kindly dont respond and the communal bill is anti hindu as it targets specifically hindus ONLY regardless of who started the violence... and I CAN PROVE THAT

 

[janon]

you asked two questions...i answered one...and i will leave the other to be answered by him..

I asked how this is appeasing christians, and to substantiate the extraordinary claim. As far as I can see, your points have answered neither question. The appeasing christians part was asked in relation to what he mentioned, not the bill you mentioned. The latter claim hasn't been substantiated.

---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 PM ----------

I am not making absurd claims, I am just looking for the links as I read that a few months ago and therefore I asked you to wait, If you cant understand english kindly dont respond and the communal bill is anti hindu as it targets specifically hindus ONLY regardless of who started the violence... and I CAN PROVE THAT

Nobody asked you to prove that. Nobody asked you anything about the communal bill. I asked you to backup your claim about the upcoming bill that criminalises pravachans. The other bill wasn't mentioned in this conversation until Kazhugu mistakenly brought it in. One of us doesn't seem to understand english, and it's not me.

A hint: If you are finding it so difficult to find a link to backup that claim, maybe...just maybe...there is no such upcoming bill, you imagined it. That makes sense to me, as anybody who has read the Indian contitution would know that you can't bring in a bill that goes flatly against the fundamental freedoms guaranteed in the constitution. I repeat - professing your religion is explicitly mentioned as a fundamental right in the country. No bill can criminalise that. Now I will wait for you to backup your claim about the bill that will put hindu saints and sages in jail for exercising their fundamental right. Until you do that, I will not reply.

 

[Shaurya]

2. Curbing freedom of expression by terming it as Hate propaganda - Even publishing, communicating or disseminating of opposition may be termed as Hate Propaganda u/s 8 and is may extend to 3 years and/or fine. Again, it is targeted against the Hindu literature and and not anti-hindu literature.
Section 18 makes anything said or expressed against the minorities may be taken up as offence under this Act. The Govt. is to keep a constant vigil on this as to who is criticizing minorities, even fair criticizing may invite action by state else the public servant will be prosecutes - Sec. 18 - This provision may be misused widely even in the time of peace, for it is a continuing process.

Anti-Hindu Prevention of Communal and Targeted Violence Bill

---------- Post added at 03:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:32 AM ----------

I asked how this is appeasing christians, and to substantiate the extraordinary claim. As far as I can see, your points have answered neither question. The appeasing christians part was asked in relation to what he mentioned, not the bill you mentioned. The latter claim hasn't been substantiated.

---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 PM ----------



Nobody asked you to prove that. Nobody asked you anything about the communal bill. I asked you to backup your claim about the upcoming bill that criminalises pravachans. The other bill wasn't mentioned in this conversation until Kazhugu mistakenly brought it in. One of us doesn't seem to understand english, and it's not me.

Please explain these then

1. Protection to religious or linguistic minority and Scheduled Castes and tribes - It is directed to punish the offenses done or anticipated against a group which essentially comprises of a religious or linguistic minority and Scheduled Castes and tribes (Sec 1 (e)). Nobody else is given protection. If in certain area, hindu population is minority and attack is targeted against them or where the minorities themselves start organized attacks and riots, this law wont help to Hindus. Such is the viciousness of the draft bill. Crimes committed by the minorities will be prosecuted by the regular criminal procedure.
2. Curbing freedom of expression by terming it as Hate propaganda - Even publishing, communicating or disseminating of opposition may be termed as Hate Propaganda u/s 8 and is may extend to 3 years and/or fine. Again, it is targeted against the Hindu literature and and not anti-hindu literature.
Section 18 makes anything said or expressed against the minorities may be taken up as offence under this Act. The Govt. is to keep a constant vigil on this as to who is criticizing minorities, even fair criticizing may invite action by state else the public servant will be prosecutes - Sec. 18 - This provision may be misused widely even in the time of peace, for it is a continuing process.
3. Offenses to be non-bailable and cognizable - The offenses under the act are summarily non-bailable and cognizable even if they are not so under I.P.C. by virtue of (Sec. 11 and 58)
4. Government machinery will be made a slave to the minorities - Under this Bill, public servants will be under constant supervision and torture- dereliction of duty and it casts vicarious liability on them(Sec. 12 to 16). As also the victim can at any point of time gets a right to know the stage of proceedings and can complain to the National authority against the Govt. Machinery.
5. Obeying orders is not a defense - Apart from the vicarious liability, the order obeying police etc. can not say that they obeyed the orders. Even if one obeys an order of his senior, he also is a accused. In the times of riots or attacks, controlling the same will be too much difficult because of this. (Sec. 16)
6. Creation of a post - Defender for Justice and Reparations. - (Sec. 56) It appears that his sole activity will be to press for the rights of minorities.
7. Creation of National Authority for Communal Harmony, Justice and Reparation
It shall have separate investigation agency with a Director General of Police GP. (Sec. 29)
It's advisories and recommendations will be binding on the State and Central Govt. (Sec. 32 (a) and (d) read with Sec. 29)
It can interfere in the Court proceeding ( SEc. 32 j and k)
It will have the status of a Civil Court.
8. The public servants like District Magistrate or Police Superintendent made directly answerable to the National Authority. (Sec. 72,29, 69, 71, 4138,39)
9. Presumption of guilt and burden of proof on the accused (Hindus) - The accused will have to prove innocence ( Sec. 74) This changes the entire legal proceeding against the hindu accused people.
10. More than one third of public prosecutors will be from the religious or linguistic minority. ( Sec. 78)
11. Provision for funds - There will be funds diverted from the Consolidated Funds of India in addition to the fines collected under this act which will be disbursed to the alleged victims.
12. Apart from punishment the convict will have to pay to the victim - Whatever is given to the victims are in turn subrogated from the the persons allegedly responsible for the loss of property, life or liberty (Sec 110)
13. Protection of action taken in good faith - All the persons acting under this Act will have blanket 'protection of action taken in good faith'. ( Sec. 130)
14. This act is in addition to any other laws that are in force at present (Sec. 138)

 

[Pakistanisage]

A terrorist is a terrorist. A terrorist really does not have a religion and uses religion as a cover to divert attention from his heinous crimes. Whether this terrorist has a Hindu, Muslim, Sikh or Christian name is irrelevent. No religion promotes murder of innocent people.

 

[Shaurya]

What can be more anti hindu than this?? My advice is leave this secularism bullshit as it doesnt exist in the first place, it is all a well devised plan by sonai maino and the christian party to divide and rule India

---------- Post added at 03:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:34 AM ----------

A terrorist is a terrorist. A terrorist really does not have a religion and uses religion as a cover to divert attention from his heinous crimes. Whether this terrorist has a Hindu, Muslim, Sikh or Christian name is irrelevent. No religion promotes murder of innocent people.

Exactly but according to this bill, only hindus will be punished for any riots or criminal activities even if they are not proven guilty..

 

[janon]

Anti-Hindu Prevention of Communal and Targeted Violence Bill

---------- Post added at 03:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:32 AM ----------





Please explain these then

1. Protection to religious or linguistic minority and Scheduled Castes and tribes - It is directed to punish the offenses done or anticipated against a group which essentially comprises of a religious or linguistic minority and Scheduled Castes and tribes (Sec 1 (e)). Nobody else is given protection. If in certain area, hindu population is minority and attack is targeted against them or where the minorities themselves start organized attacks and riots, this law wont help to Hindus. Such is the viciousness of the draft bill. Crimes committed by the minorities will be prosecuted by the regular criminal procedure.
2. Curbing freedom of expression by terming it as Hate propaganda - Even publishing, communicating or disseminating of opposition may be termed as Hate Propaganda u/s 8 and is may extend to 3 years and/or fine. Again, it is targeted against the Hindu literature and and not anti-hindu literature.
Section 18 makes anything said or expressed against the minorities may be taken up as offence under this Act. The Govt. is to keep a constant vigil on this as to who is criticizing minorities, even fair criticizing may invite action by state else the public servant will be prosecutes - Sec. 18 - This provision may be misused widely even in the time of peace, for it is a continuing process.
3. Offenses to be non-bailable and cognizable - The offenses under the act are summarily non-bailable and cognizable even if they are not so under I.P.C. by virtue of (Sec. 11 and 58)
4. Government machinery will be made a slave to the minorities - Under this Bill, public servants will be under constant supervision and torture- dereliction of duty and it casts vicarious liability on them(Sec. 12 to 16). As also the victim can at any point of time gets a right to know the stage of proceedings and can complain to the National authority against the Govt. Machinery.
5. Obeying orders is not a defense - Apart from the vicarious liability, the order obeying police etc. can not say that they obeyed the orders. Even if one obeys an order of his senior, he also is a accused. In the times of riots or attacks, controlling the same will be too much difficult because of this. (Sec. 16)
6. Creation of a post - Defender for Justice and Reparations. - (Sec. 56) It appears that his sole activity will be to press for the rights of minorities.
7. Creation of National Authority for Communal Harmony, Justice and Reparation
It shall have separate investigation agency with a Director General of Police GP. (Sec. 29)
It's advisories and recommendations will be binding on the State and Central Govt. (Sec. 32 (a) and (d) read with Sec. 29)
It can interfere in the Court proceeding ( SEc. 32 j and k)
It will have the status of a Civil Court.
8. The public servants like District Magistrate or Police Superintendent made directly answerable to the National Authority. (Sec. 72,29, 69, 71, 4138,39)
9. Presumption of guilt and burden of proof on the accused (Hindus) - The accused will have to prove innocence ( Sec. 74) This changes the entire legal proceeding against the hindu accused people.
10. More than one third of public prosecutors will be from the religious or linguistic minority. ( Sec. 78)
11. Provision for funds - There will be funds diverted from the Consolidated Funds of India in addition to the fines collected under this act which will be disbursed to the alleged victims.
12. Apart from punishment the convict will have to pay to the victim - Whatever is given to the victims are in turn subrogated from the the persons allegedly responsible for the loss of property, life or liberty (Sec 110)
13. Protection of action taken in good faith - All the persons acting under this Act will have blanket 'protection of action taken in good faith'. ( Sec. 130)
14. This act is in addition to any other laws that are in force at present (Sec. 138)

Yea I knew you would resort to this trick. First off, where does it say that hindu saints or sages would be jailed for pravachans? Kindly point out. Secondly, if you are talking abuot a bill being passed in parliament, surely you can get official sources for the bill, instead of opinion from a website called hindujagriti?

Not even the wordiong from that website substantiates your claim.

 

[Shaurya]

See how excited the minorities are :

Pass communal violence prevention Bill: All India Christian Council

Pass communal violence prevention Bill: All India Christian Council - Mumbai - DNA

---------- Post added at 03:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 AM ----------

Yea I knew you would resort to this trick. First off, where does it say that hindu saints or sages would be jailed for pravachans? Kindly point out. Secondly, if you are talking abuot a bill being passed in parliament, surely you can get official sources for the bill, instead of opinion from a website called hindujagriti?

Not even the wordiong from that website substantiates your claim.

Read the second point genius

 

[janon]

What can be more anti hindu than this?? My advice is leave this secularism bullshit as it doesnt exist in the first place, it is all a well devised plan by sonai maino and the christian party to divide and rule India

---------- Post added at 03:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:34 AM ----------



Exactly but according to this bill, only hindus will be punished for any riots or criminal activities even if they are not proven guilty..

One last time. In future do not make up claims you can't back up. Nowhere in anything you psted is there a provision to arrest hindu saints or sages for pravachans. That is the sole point that I asked you to backup.

---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:39 PM ----------

---------- Post added at 03:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 AM ----------

[/COLOR]

Read the second point genius

I asked for a credible source. If it is a proposed bill or has been introduced in parliament, the original draft would be available all over. I did not ask for the opinion of a website called hindu jagriti. I can also give you websites that claim that the moon landings never occured and that 9/11 was done by the CIA. I asked for credible sources, not a hindu biased website. And note that the link they have put to the original bill DOES NOT EXIST. Learn how to judge the credibility of websites.

No matter what they say, no such bill can ever be passed, anybody with any knowledge of our constitution would know this. The following part of the constitution titled "fundamental rights" would make it clear why any such bill would be ludicrously unconstitutional. Only somebody completely ignorant of the law of our land would claim that such a bill (one that jails hindu saints for pravachans) is even possible.

From the constitution:

Freedom of conscience and free profession, practice and propagation of religion.-

(1) Subject to public order, morality and health and to the other provisions of this Part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practise and propagate religion.

http://www.constitution.org/cons/india/p03025.html

 

[livingdead]

A terrorist is a terrorist. A terrorist really does not have a religion and uses religion as a cover to divert attention from his heinous crimes. Whether this terrorist has a Hindu, Muslim, Sikh or Christian name is irrelevent. No religion promotes murder of innocent people.

Hindu terrorist term is similar to islamic terrorist, it is specifically to point the motive of the terrror.
One has to know the underlying cause for somebody doing terrorism.
Nobody is pointing to all hindus or all muslims.
About religion promoting violence, we are not supposed to debate religion here, so I will avoid that.

 

[Birbal]

If the Congress government was as anti-Hindu as certain people claim it is, then that mass murderer Narendra Modi and his stooges would be in jail (or executed) for crimes against humanity.

 

[indianspetsnaz]

i have a solution lets sick the IB on all the religious terrorist groups operating on our soil and RAW on the groups operating externally in other countries.