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PR, Nawaz Sharif, Pakistan's politicians and the democracy dilemma : Why I oppose Nawaz Sharif.

I came across some interesting articles here,
Can Nawaz Sharif fix the economy? - Newspaper - DAWN.COM
PML-N’s financial wizardry - Sayem Z Ali
I'm going to be quoting specific parts of these articles here but they're both worth a complete read. This post is meant to explain my, and many, many Pakistanis' point of view, put things in a little perspective and reply to those who wonder that why, despite the apparent failure of the protests and PTI, I continue to oppose the PMLN government.

Pakistan has problems, everybody knows that. But truly understanding what these problems are is a different matter entirely. While gossip and conspiracy theories are really popular among people, the average Pakistani has a vague idea about the politics, the underlying issues behind their problems. What they do see, however, are the 'symptoms'. This makes the people, the masses, really gullible.

On the other hand, we have people who do not understand the plight of the Pakistani people yet believe that they understand the politics. People living in posh areas, or the expatriates spectating from abroad. They may wonder why, despite all the investments and mega-projects and whatnot the current PMLN government has been making, is Pakistan's situation deteriorating? They will also then wonder why people are protesting against the government, surely it is these protests and political unrest that is responsible for the deterioration? Others will be quick to blame the Army for meddling with civilian affairs and 'sabotaging democracy'.

The truth is very different. In order to actually understand the situation, we must see both of the points of view and combine them in an honest analysis.

PMLN, for example, has always made projects, policies and the like to show how much work they are doing. But anyone who has lived in Punjab, their favorite province, can tell how full of lies they are. An outsider may see the 'investments', 'economic reforms', mega projects and schemes and think that Nawaz Sharif is very good. Similarly, An average, relatively uninformed Pakistani will see things like the protests and blame them for undermining Nawaz's efforts.

The truth is that these PR projects do nothing to actually help Pakistanis. On one hand we have them handing out laptops (not to mention all the fraud in this) and on the other we have schools without books or a roof. Then we have mega projects like the Metro Bus (again, not counting the fact that NS benefits from these through his steel mills and other businesses) while Lahore doesn't have a proper sewage and drainage system. PMLN had more than enough time in Punjab to at least fix this. No developed province (or at least a city like Lahore) should flood every time it rains.



The 'prescriptions and symptoms' analogy the author is is using here is perfect when we look at Pakistani healthcare. If you go to a clinic, in most places of Pakistan, you'll find 'doctors' giving patients strong drips and injections for small things like a cough or fever. Now what this does is that it convinces poor, uneducated people that they are being given proper treatment and they happily fork out their hard-earned cash. Their symptoms stop, but after a while, thanks to the underlying issue being ignored, their symptoms return, worse than before.

That is precisely the strategy NS uses in Pakistan. Just replace 'injections and drips' with mega-projects and 'patients' with the public and you get an honest analysis of PMLN's performance.


Now over here this author makes a good point, then reverts to milking the old 'security establishment' argument. The truth is that this idea that the Army has been undermining the country is grossly exaggerated. It may have been true in the past but during Kayani's leadership and now Raheel Sharif's, this 'meddling' was talk and almost nothing else. And even when we talk about the past, most of the times it wasn't the Army that caused the downfall of civilian governments - It was the politicians' greed and incompetence that gave the Army reason and opportunity to intervene.

The point about 'on paper' is further backed by the fact that while PMLN boasted a lot about their economic success, the actual facts were stating the contrary, like this author says here:

They have some short boosts, for a couple of days it feels like everything is going well but one month or two later, everything is back to deteriorating again.

In Punjab around 2009, where PMLN ruled during the previous term, we used to hear things like 'loadshedding will finish by 2012'. In 2012, sitting in the dark and reading a newspaper with a candle, I read that the metro bus project started, all while we had no electricity for upto 18 hours a day. PMLN ruled for a long time and all they did was PR.

With the metro bus, one might argue of its importance or effect but the truth is it cost a lot more than it should have. And this cost is not counting the fact that they demolished countless shops and businesses to make room for it. I was in Lahore and I witnessed shops, bakeries and mosques being demolished. People complained about not getting proper compensation (in some cases, they didn't get any. They're probably still desperately wandering around in courts).
Surprisingly, very less media reported this.
All I found was this:
What price the Azadi | TNS - The News on Sunday
And lets not forget the long-term problems caused by the project:
Is Metro Bus a success story?
What about the cost of maintaining it and running it? What about the practicality of allocating so many resources to it while Pakistan suffers from so many other pertinent issues? It seems like PMLN has left behind a perfect trap for whoever comes in power after them - they will be blamed for the eventual deterioration and ultimately, failure, of the Metro Bus project.

At the end of the day, politicians like Nawaz Sharif will only do things that would directly benefit them. Their disregard for the general population is evident when we factor in things like the Model Town incident, where innocent people were injured because of politicians trying to intimidate their opposition.

PTI may not be the panacea for Pakistan's problems and Imran Khan may not be the messiah. But at the very least, it's a little hope in the form of a new party with new ideals.

I don't oppose Nawaz Sharif because I am a blind follower of IK. I do not oppose Nawaz Sharif because I am misinformed or a 'burger'. I do not oppose Nawaz Sharif because I want military rule. I do not oppose Nawaz Sharif because I hate democracy.
I oppose Nawaz Sharif because I'm sick of being lied to. I oppose Nawaz Sharif because I am sick of listening to false promises. I oppose Nawaz Sharif because he's had enough chances. I oppose Nawaz Sharif because I want a proper democracy, where leaders are actually accountable and where people's votes can be accounted for.

Sorry for the really long post but there's too much to be said.
People are welcome to discuss, dissect and criticize, just please keep it civil.

@Leader @Norwegian @Jazzbot @orangzaib @Akheilos @FaujHistorian

his only agenda is to get rich, rich enough and linked enough so that he along with Zardari can declare monarchy instead of Presidency.. we might also see a marriage in their families for that purpose.
 
Meh, I'm not going to read your wall of text.

But for the curious, I'll add, it's very stupid to compare metro costs to other nations/cities. First, we import technology, which inflates the cost extremely. India, Turkey or China do not need to import much technolgies or machineries. Second, not all were made during same time frame. Finally, the faster you build, the more expensive.
How typical. You're basically admitting you're wrong and can not counter my argument. Very well.

it's very stupid to compare metro costs to other nations/cities.
But its perfectly fine for you to compare Pakistan's economy to India's?
First, we import technology, which inflates the cost extremely. India, Turkey or China do not need to import much technolgies or machineries
Which technologies? Cement mixers? We do not need to import any technology for basic construction work like this, it's not rocket science. If I am wrong, give me a source and prove it.

Second, not all were made during same time frame.
All of those this article quoted were made during a similar time-frame. Also, it says:
As per published figures, the infrastructure costs in US$ per kilometer (all costs escalated to 2014) for BRT for various cities are:

Finally, the faster you build, the more expensive
How faster? It wasn't built overnight, it took its time. Wasn't any faster when compared to the other countries. The Istanbul Metro, for example, took 2 years to build and was much longer than the Lahore Metro (27 Km in Lahore,50 Km in Istanbul).
 
How typical. You're basically admitting you're wrong and can not counter my argument. Very well.


But its perfectly fine for you to compare Pakistan's economy to India's?

Which technologies? Cement mixers? We do not need to import any technology for basic construction work like this, it's not rocket science. If I am wrong, give me a source and prove it.


All of those this article quoted were made during a similar time-frame. Also, it says:



How faster? It wasn't built overnight, it took its time. Wasn't any faster when compared to the other countries. The Istanbul Metro, for example, took 2 years to build and was much longer than the Lahore Metro (27 Km in Lahore,50 Km in Istanbul).
Not reading another wall of text
 
Not reading another wall of text
5 lines is a wall of text for you?
Well, like they say, Ignorance is bliss. Enjoy it. (or maybe not, given that you've already admitted you're wrong. Twice)
 
5 lines is a wall of text for you?
Well, like they say, Ignorance is bliss. Enjoy it. (or maybe not, given that you've already admitted you're wrong. Twice)
And he once said he was studying economy and was a very "learned" man :D
 
And he once said he was studying economy and was a very "learned" man :D
Which means I don't waste time with people who have made up their mind about something.


Oh and it's economics. But then a night security man wouldn't know.
 
Which means I don't waste time with people who have made up their mind about something.


Oh and it's economics. But then a night security man wouldn't know.

No, It means you are way too proud and stubborn to argue when you are clearly wrong.

Economics? Good for you. And by the way, insulting other people for not being as rich as you is a really rude thing. Educated people should know that.
 
No, It means you are way too proud and stubborn to argue when you are clearly wrong.

Economics? Good for you. And by the way, insulting other people for not being as rich as you is a really rude thing. Educated people should know that.

I argue where the other person seems to understand the other side of story. But if he's too obsessed with "gonawazgo" and any project which doesn't have blessing of Imran is a fail project, this person is not my cup of tea. I don't like metro bus and I prefer train which imran promised. But even he's going for bus in Peshawar. The point is, if current pm was replaced by Imran and performance was exactly the same, people would be do happy to see naya pakistan being built. But because it's nawaz, gonawazgo

Security guards make good money. And the position he has should net him much more. So it was no insult.
 
I argue where the other person seems to understand the other side of story. But if he's too obsessed with "gonawazgo" and any project which doesn't have blessing of Imran is a fail project, this person is not my cup of tea. I don't like metro bus and I prefer train which imran promised. But even he's going for bus in Peshawar. The point is, if current pm was replaced by Imran and performance was exactly the same, people would be do happy to see naya pakistan being built. But because it's nawaz, gonawazgo
And here comes the generalization (all PTI supporters are obsessed bla bla bla, not to mention the amount of times I have criticized Imran Khan, but whatever helps you sleep at night.), without looking at the facts or arguments I presented. I'd see the 'other side of the story' if it made any sense. Judging by your arguments, It doesn't.

Also, nice try with the strawman here:
But if he's too obsessed with "gonawazgo" and any project which doesn't have blessing of Imran is a fail project, this person is not my cup of tea.
strawman[1].jpg


Security guards make good money. And the position he has should net him much more. So it was no insult.
Good for security guards then.
 
Security guards make good money. And the position he has should net him much more. So it was no insult.
Well, it is an insult if you keep telling me that I work as a night guard, when in reality I don't :D
 
And here comes the generalization (all PTI supporters are obsessed bla bla bla, not to mention the amount of times I have criticized Imran Khan, but whatever helps you sleep at night.), without looking at the facts or arguments I presented. I'd see the 'other side of the story' if it made any sense. Judging by your arguments, It doesn't.

Also, nice try with the strawman here:

View attachment 154390


Good for security guards then.
And I was right about your mindset :)

I have seen you on forums enough to justify Imran's actions one way or the other. But then you're not my cup of tea. So I would not be wasting my time with Imran lover.
 
your mindset
There you go, more of that. Don't look at my mindset. Look at what I'm saying and the reasoning I have given. If you can't disprove or otherwise dispute that reasoning, logically you are wrong.

I have seen you on forums enough to justify Imran's actions one way or the other.
Imran's actions are justifiable which is why I justify them. But then you're one of those people who thinks protesting is terrorism, no point arguing with nonsense like that.

Imran lover.
I dislike Imran Khan for many, many reasons. Only reason I support him is because I dislike his politics less than those of Nawaz, Zardari or Altaf. In Pakistan, it's not about who's a good person. It's about whose the least bad. Imran Khan is easily the least bad Pakistani politician.

But then, it's obviously a lot easier to dismiss logic that goes against your misplaced political beliefs by calling me an 'Imran lover' than it is to actually present logic of your own.
 
There you go, more of that. Don't look at my mindset. Look at what I'm saying and the reasoning I have given. If you can't disprove or otherwise dispute that reasoning, logically you are wrong.


Imran's actions are justifiable which is why I justify them. But then you're one of those people who thinks protesting is terrorism, no point arguing with nonsense like that.


I dislike Imran Khan for many, many reasons. Only reason I support him is because I dislike his politics less than those of Nawaz, Zardari or Altaf. In Pakistan, it's not about who's a good person. It's about whose the least bad. Imran Khan is easily the least bad Pakistani politician.

But then, it's obviously a lot easier to dismiss logic that goes against your misplaced political beliefs by calling me an 'Imran lover' than it is to actually present logic of your own.
Ignored

U are not my cup of tea. I wonder when you'll realize that. Oh and I didn't read what you posted again.
 
Ignored

U are not my cup of tea. I wonder when you'll realize that. Oh and I didn't read what you posted again.
Keep ignoring, I am laughing my a$$ off over here. The guy who shows off about his education and love for Pakistan doesn't want to read five lines of pure logic.
Just shows that all you want to do is mindlessly bash Imran Khan, you're not interested in a debate or facts or logic or anything.

Oh and my posts are actually all part of the London Plan, in case you're wondering :omghaha:
 
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