Potential of SEAD operations in the IAF

[surya kiran]

Hello,

Was reading about how tactics are developed for taking out radar stations and other ground targets in a hostile environment. Would this be a possible scenario for IAF?

From the original article-

"
Nowadays, standoff jamming support for stealth platforms has become standard practice whether the aircraft requires it or not. The importance and benefits brought forth by combining stealth and EW capabilities are well understood and new operational concepts are being developed. Spearheading the development of such a cooperative engagement capability (CEC) is the U.S. Navy with their Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA) concept. At the forefront of NIFC-CA is the sensor-rich F-35C acting as an Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition, and Reconnaissance (ISTAR) platform, channeling data back and providing terminal guidance to standoff missiles launched by other aircraft and warships. Supporting the JSF from a distance will be USN EA-18Gs and F/A-18E/Fs equipped with powerful standoff jammers and long-range missiles, respectively. These two non-stealthy platforms will use data received from the F-35 to jam and engage enemy targets while remaining beyond the reach of enemy SAMs. In the future, the strike package will also include the navy’s low observable Unmanned Carrier Launched Surveillance and Strike (UCLASS) platform which will provide the fighters with aerial-refueling as well as additional surveillance and strike capability.


Managing the strike package will be the task of one or more E-2D airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft relaying data back to the command and control center on the carrier, to Aegis equipped warships, and to submarines. All platforms are to be networked using secure data-links – these include advanced high-bandwidth, jam-resistant links currently under development –which will grant all members of the carrier strike group a clear and common view of the battlefield, enabling the joint detection and engagement of targets over hundreds of miles. Being able to effectively relay targeting data to standoff weapons through such a CEC would also allow the F-35 to partially compensate for its inability to carry most air-to-surface missiles internally due to the small size of its bomb bays (carrying the weapons externally would compromise the aircraft’s stealth)."


Now, in this scenario can the Rafale/FGFA fulfill the role of the F-35 while Su-30s do the jamming? Also, what is the need for jamming if the aircraft is a stealth aircraft already? What is the potential for such an operation by the IAF? If not, what do we need?

@Oscar @Capt.Popeye @gambit @DrSomnath999 @sancho @halloweene @SpArK @Abingdonboy @nair

 

[sancho]

The first difference is, that the US military acts not at the US borders but far away from their country, while our scenario is always a border area conflict. That alone makes things different, be it wrt on how to detect possible targets because you have only limited assets in the area, or how to engage them, because you have to send a limited ammount of fighters to an area that is far away from your bases and so on.

The point about stealth is, that it doesn't mean that you are invisible to radar, but that you are very hard to detect for radar, not to mention that it doesn't give you the same low detectability from all sides (mainly frontal stealth, while sides and rear are easier to detect). Jamming then improves the low detectability of the stealth fighter, to any direction and in any situation be it in A2A combats or if you specifically aim against air defences. But in your example the jamming was mainly meant to protect the non stealth fighters, not the stealth fighters, which mainly will use their stealth capability and their integrated jamming capability to pretect them, just as any modern fighter does it to today.

For IAF, the SEAD scenario will be different as mentioned above, since our scenario is different too. You can detect air defences even within our own airspace and if IAF gets aircrafts with capable stand off weapons, they will be able to attack targets even without crossing the borders.

Wrt the example of the F35, IAF will be able to do SEAD in the same manner, when they get FGFA too. Using the main advantage of stealth, to operate in forwarded positions and taking advantage of it's sensor arrays to provide intelligence data, while following non stealth fighters like Rafale or MKI (protected by integrated or dedicated jammers) can benefit from that data to stay in safe zones or to attack the target. We have already seen models of the MKI with upgraded EW capabilities and dedicated high power jammers from DARE, so there surely will be comparable capabilities in IAF.

 

[SpArK]

Was reading about how tactics are developed for taking out radar stations and other ground targets in a hostile environment. Would this be a possible scenario for IAF?

Those two guys called Harop and HarpY will have considerable role in that areas.

 

[DrSomnath999]

@surya kiran

it is a damn big topic & interesting also to discuss.

I would be editing my post here now & then if i found some mistakes on my side

1st of all one should look the threat & their capabilities which IAF would be facing to do it's SEAD missions

western side threat =Green enemy

eastern side threat =Red enemy
(P.S deliberately avoided taking names to avoid Flame baiting)

RED enemy Air defences is quite larger & technologically also better than green enemy.SO it is going to very difficult for IAF to do it's SEAD mission against them

once should understand all SEAD missions we have seen by US /French have been against medium range SAM
but their style of SEAD missions is different .

but against a formidable enemy like russia/chinese Air defence which have multi layer SAM
1) short range/ 2) medium range & 3) long range




POST would be continued later i have just blocked the 1st page of this thread & i would edit it later for sure

 

[sancho]

Those two guys called Harop and HarpY will have considerable role in that areas.

True, which shows the difference of the Indian scenario where drones can be used from border areas, for the same purpose where NATO must do medium to long range attack operations.

 

[SQ8]

To consider the scope of SEAD operations for the IAF one has to first look at the ADGE(Air Defence Ground Enviornment) against which the SEAD has to be carried out. For the sake of detail lets focus on the more well equipped future foe that India has which is China. The Chinese surface to air missile distribution is quick dense in certain areas within the north and consists of both medium and high level SAM threats along with guided AAA systems.

The IAF's task cannot end up mirroring the efforts of the USAF and her allies in Gulf War 1 with the eventual goal of destruction of enemy air defence, so it will truly embody the idea of suppressing enemy air defence units. To carry out these tasks the IAF currently has a few dedicated assets/weapon systems.

As mentioned by Spark, the existence of the Israeli Kamikaze Harop UAV's is one key asset, against emitters and static targets alike.While having ample range, it is limited in its speed which makes it vulnerable to Chinese point defence system such as the LD-2000 unless swarming tactics are employed. In either case, Harops may very well form the first wave that precedes a strike package to provide some degree of suppression of enemy assets.

The next important kill assets are the Anti Radiation Kh-25 and KH-31 systems. These are important that they provide a stand off capability at least for the medium ranged Chinese systems.

The bigger issue is the lack of a dedicated stand off or stand in jammer. Despite its sophisticated nature, the Rafale would provide inferior in this role as compared to a dedicated EW variant of the Su-30MKI.. and the IAF would do well to look into the matter .

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Also, what is the need for jamming if the aircraft is a stealth aircraft already?

This is dangerous logic. The US has stealth aircraft, but it still uses jamming... why would this be? Don't stealth aircraft negate the effectiveness of radars? NO!!! Not at all. There are radars that can detect stealth aircraft, such as the US SPY-1 (good luck jamming that though). A stealth aircraft isn't going to have an unobstructed path to an enemy, it will have to confront radars.

You have options though. Chart a pathway though the radars coverage using your own knowledge of the limitations of the enemy radar system, the US JTE helps US air and navy personal gain experience against enemy radars. We learn their limitations and learn how to avoid a confrontation if we can. There's no need to destroy a system if it can be avoided.

The Joint Threat Emitter Can Be Any SAM Site You Want It To Be

You can destroy them, a process known as DEAD, but this puts the stealth aircraft or non-stealth systems at risk as they must confront an enemy radar that is actively looking for them.

http://www.nps.navy.mil/orfacpag/resumePages/papers/Gav-Jacpa/Suppression.pdf - the US Navy has an interesting article on SEAD and DEAD operations.

Or you can confront the radars and limit their effectiveness against you by jamming their systems... this also paves the way for their destruction.

Keep in mind that ground threats aren't the only ones you will face. Air and sea assets also possess anti-stealth radars, you can destroy or jam them, but relying on stealth alone is putting too much faith in your own arrogance and you will face combat losses. Stealth didn't protect a US F-117 from a combat loss, it's SEAD that helps the strike package reach their targets.

Also, the US F-22s flying over Syria always do so with EW assets to jam any pesky Syrian radars, though the Syrian air force has kept our of the way of the US coalition and doesn't want to risk pulling the US and regional allies into a war against it.

Again, the USN has an interesting article on why it's important to supplement stealth with EW assets - Stealth Vs. Electronic Attack - USNI News

Stealth is not a magic bullet, it can and has been defeated.

Remember, once the USAF thought the F-4 didn't need a gun. "Missiles will suffice", they said. How did that turn out? Never rely on a single system, use your options. Have versatility.

 

[halloweene]

this ppt (in french) is interesting about passive radars...

Dropbox - 20130227_NP Presentation_Radar_Passifs EOAA 2013_avec points en suspend_light.ppt

 

[Juggernautjatt]

True, which shows the difference of the Indian scenario where drones can be used from border areas, for the same purpose where NATO must do medium to long range attack operations.

I think short range cruise missiles like Brahmos is also a good option for hitting radar stations.

 

[Omega007]

I think short range cruise missiles like Brahmos is also a good option for hitting radar stations.

Nah,not at all cost effective,need something cheaper....................way way cheaper than Brahmos for SEAD role.

 

[SrNair]

IAF can also look that options.But our war theatre would be in our very border even if there is a war in future.
Honestly IAF dont have that much of EW capabilities for now and would be improved in future like @sancho said.
We have two possible enemies.Attack against one would easily spiral out in to all out war means our primary SEAD would be Nirbhay like cruise missiles.
But other guys are much stronger than us.So We can use FGFA/AMCA and Su 30 MKI or Rafale in a way that mentioned in OP.
But you should care about the possibility that happened in the case of Growler where jamming creates blocking of its own AESA radar.

 

[DrSomnath999]

POST Continued from myside
but against a formidable enemy like russia/chinese Air defence which have multi layer SAM
1) short range/ 2) medium range & 3) long range

those SEAD missions wouldnt have been so easy for them


AIR DEFENCES primarily includes RADARS Ground based & SAM & anti aircraft artillery but for simplicity case i would avoid AWACS & Fighter jets of enemy as we are discussing SEAD /DEAD role only


Lets take a look at green enemy's Air defences
(I) PAF Air Defence Weapons

I)Crotale: It is a short to medium range AD system. Pakistan has 05 squadrons,
each squadron comprising of two acquisition units and four firing units.
MIRADOR II is the acquisition Radar for Crotale SAM. The radar is intended
to operate against low and very low flying targets (50-3000M). The maximum
calibrated range is 18 KM and the minimum is 02 KM. It is primarily intended for
point defence. MIRADOR II also has optical or TV tracking mode. The effective
maximum range of Crotale is about 8.5 km against a fighter class of aircraft and
13 km for helicopters. Crotale missile system is deployed by PAF at airfields.
Crotale is expected to be slowly replaced by Spada 2000.


2)Spada 2000: A low to medium altitude air defence system consisting of a radar
with 60 km range and four 6-cell missile launchers. The missile can intercept
enemy missiles and aircraft at a range of over 20 km.


3)RBS-70 AD missile system: It is a man portable, jam proof, quick reaction
missile system. It can be used independently or can be integrated with an
acquisition radar. The radar specially made to be integrated with RBS 70/70+
is Giraffe PS-70/R. Giraffe radar even though designed to be used with RBS-70
SAMs, can be adopted for use with any type of short range SAM system or gun
system. The radar is designed to detect very low flying targets and is linked with
a number of firing units for precision target designation. The radar has a range
of 40 kms in surveillance mode and is reduced to 20 kms in designation mode.
The RBS 70’s guidance for the missile is beam rider (laser). The maximum range
of the missile is between 3-5 kms depending on target parameters. The missile is
effective up to a height of 3.0 Kms within its launch envelope.

MANPADS:
1)Stinger:The stinger has been basically designed to pick up the target visually
and fire. The guidance system is passive IR homing which means its got a seeker
head which picks up IR radiations from the target aircraft. The maximum range
is 5 Km and the maximum height at which a target can be engaged is 4.8 Km.
During a conflict they are likely to be deployed in TBA in support of the Army.
They are unlikely to be deployed for airfield defence.

2)ANZA- The Anza is an indigenous man portable SAM system produced with
Chinese collaboration. It has a Passive IR homing head. The maximum range is
4.5 km and the maximum height at which a target can be engaged is 2.5 km.

3)Mistral: The Mistral missile is a French man portable tripod launched missile.
It also has a passive IR homing head. The maximum firing range is 6 km and the
maximum altitude for engagement is 4.5 kms. It is expected to be deployed for
airfield defence either independently or along with the Crotale or Spada 2000.
They have also been deployed at the high altitude areas.


Balloon Barrage: PAF has six balloon barrage wings which provides cover to
the selected VAs and VPs. The balloons are expected to be used in conjunction
with Crotale missiles.


(II) Pakistan Army AD Weapon Systems

1)Battlefield Surveillance Radars: The Early Warning is provided by the overall
AD network through the OCCs. The main battlefield radars are RASIT and RB
12 A. These are highly mobile pulse Doppler radars with a range of 30- 40 kms.
They can distinguish between personnel, vehicles, and aircraft. The system is
deployed on vehicles (although it can be removed from its mount and placed on
the ground).


2)Low Level AD Guns:


– 35mm Oerlikon Gun System–It is deployed with the Sky Guard FCR which
controls and coordinates the firing. The search radar can scan an area up to
20 km and locks on the target at 14.5 km. The radar can track one target at
a time and provide data to three guns. The range of the gun itself is 4 km.
An additional TV camera enables aircraft recognition. The system can be
employed both against aerial and ground targets.


– 57mm Medium AD Gun System–Each battery/FU comprises 8 guns, 01
fire control computer and 01 FCR. While operating with FCR, all the 8 guns
simultaneously engage the target (one target at a time). However, against
targets detected at short ranges of less than its max range of 6 km or in case of
mass raids, the guns have the capability to visually engage multiple targets.


Low Level AD Guns. (MOGs):

- 37mm AD Gun–Effective against aircraft but has relatively low rate of fire and
maximum range of around 3000m. It is therefore always paired with 14.5 mm
Quad gun and is likely to be integrated with SAMS in future conflicts.

-14.5mm Quad Gun–It offers a relatively high rate of fire. Its high rate of fire is
effective against hostile aircraft, but it lacks lethality against modern aircraft.
It is therefore always paired with 37 mm AD gun and is also likely to be
integrated with SAMS in future conflicts.

COURTESY- Puneet Bhalla
from CLAWS
Centre for Land Warfare Studies


There were reports that Pakistan may procure HQ-9 Sams from China but cannot be confirmed yet

plus they do have US made Aerostats which provide low level aerial surveillance against UAVs , Terrain hugging cruise missiles / Low flying combat aircrafts

conclusion-

They have basically medium range SAM & MANPADS coupled with AAA s

Pakistan seriously lags a long range SAM like HQ-9 plus they lack a VHF radar to counter future stealth
planes of IAF .




HOW would IAF / indian army would do SEAD role against Green enemy?

1) IAF
a) RAFALE would be the key player in SEAD mission till PAK-FA comes into the picture later
-rafale thanks to SPECTRA /FSO IT or NG / along with MICA IR through it passive detection capabilty gives rafale a tremendous situational awareness against all ground based /aerial based Electromaganetic emissions (RADAR) emitters (SAM/AWACS/AEROSTATS) without emitting any emissions from itself to conceal it's position in air
& it can also detect upto 100 emitters simultaneuosly from long range on pulse by pulse basis

& not only that it can cue it's precision guided missiles (AASM hammer) against those SAM through SPECTRA alone or along with help of OPTRONICS targeting pod (TALIOS in future/ Litening incase of IAF if they select it) + FSO

thanks to it' inferometric antennaes with angular localization of precision of less than 1 degree on SPECTRA's RWR along with excellent data fusion capabilty

Plus SPECTRA top secret active cancellation tech can be very effective against enemy ground based/ aerial based radars to confuse them by giving false returns clearly demonstrated during NATO MACE XII exercise in 2012
MACE XIII against SA-10 -aka S300-
Ultima Ratio » Blog Archiv » A French Way of SEAD?

primary weapon of rafale for SEAD mission would be AASM hammer but in case of IAF it can also use kh 31P krypton or an indigenious version of anti radiation missile which is being developed .
also It can use Brahmos M supersonic ALCM against high value AIR DEFENCE systems .


basically the range of PAF ground based SAMs are in the range of 20 -30km so rafale can comfortably stay out of it's acquisation range of SPADA SAM & can target it as it did in libya

but in libya they didnt have AWACS/ fighter intercepts like F16 B52 & JF 17 Block I & II but that discussion would be avoided as we are discussing SEAD role basically not aerial fight


BTW PAF knows very well the capabilty of rafale F3 + variant also which technologically much advanced than F16 block 52 & JF 17 Block I & II i dont need to explain in detail what would be the result of aerial combat between the two of them


-Super SU 30 mki would provide air cover & air superiority mission along side the Rafale from back side as it would be armed with Meteor missile which is also india planning to induct in it plus with isreali jamming pod /russian khibiny jamming pod which SU 30mki would be carrying it can be very handy in SEAD missions along with rafale


Meteor missile is 170+ km BVRAAM missile & SU 30 mki which has more operational ceiling height & Mach speed than rafale it can enhance it's kinematic range even further to 200 km +

SO Meteor can be very effective AWACS killer as no news about K100 novator missile is to be found in IAF at the moment now

it can be very effective to taking out PAF AWACS & once PAF awacs are down it would be much easiear for rafale to penetrate
PAF air bases undetected by flying low & along with use of it's spectra active cancellation tech to confuse enemy radars of PAF jets which lack a proper aesa radar /IRST .






b)PAk-fa (FUTURE post 2020)
PAk-fa is a stealth fighter with ground attack capabilty .Pak-fa doesnt need to carry Jamming pods nor rely on jamming to conceal it's position in air . it would be doing it's SEAD mission against PAF through it's Kh-58USHK anti radiation
missile which has range greater than 200km or with basic precision guided ammunition

in future INDIAN brahmos corporation are planning to install Brahmos M for pak-fa also lets see how do they achieve got to wait for that

plus Pak-fa in future would use it's AESA radar complex for Electronic attack also in case PAF gets hand on VHF radar through china

c) UCAVs

-Harpy UCAVS
The Harpy is designed to attack radar systems and is optimised for the SEAD role. It carries a high explosive warhead.
range is around 500km

-Harop UCAVS
harpy 2 sometimes it is reffered to .It is more advanced than Harpy UCAVS .This SEAD-optimised UCAV is designed to loiter the battlefield and attack targets by self-destructing into them. Unlike the fully autonomous Harpy, however, the Harop is controlled in flight by a remote operator. The Harop features two guidance modes: it can either home in on radio emissions by itself with its anti-radar homing system, or the operator can select static or moving targets detected by the aircraft's electro-optical sensor.

range is greater than Harpy -1000km

plus in future India is also planning for it's own UCAVs like AURA this UCAVs would also play a key role in SEAD missions .



ONe more thing i like to stress if rafale is fitted with GBU 105 cluster ammunition bomb it can be very effective against the
vehicle (Trucks) which carry radar & SAM missiles & anti aircraft artillery but not against ground based radar/SAM missiles/AAAs .But the problem is you gonna to have closein agaisnt the target to fire your weapon compare to PGMs/ARM/ALCM

advantage very cheaper & effective against multiple vehicles carrying sam radars / missiles/ AAAs in a wide area






2) Indian army

the plus point for Indian army in SEAD role would be pakistan air bases & air defences close proximity with india so Indian
army can also play a role in SEAD mission comapre to Chinese air bases which are located farther from indian border areas

1)Samyukta electronic warfare suite

Samyukta is a mobile integrated electronic warfare system.


Each System operates on 145 ground mobile vehicles which has three communication and two non-communication segments and can cover an area of 150 km by 70 km. System has capability for surveillance, analysis, interception, Direction finding, and position fixing, listing, prioritising and jamming of all communication and radar signals from HF to MMW.

The three types of active jammers employed include those for wide-band jamming of hostile field artillery radio proximity fuzes over an area of 600,000 square metres, and for simultaneous jamming up to eight hostile X-band airborne radars in azimuth and elevation. SAR radars operating up to 80km away can be jammed, while the X-band monopulse pulse-Doppler airborne radars of combat aircraft can be jammed out to a distance of 50km. The efficient emitting power of the jammer is not less than 580kW. The jammers can be deployed in two patterns: 16 as a battalion, and 6 as a company.
TRISHUL: Project Samyukta Detailed
The Hindu : `Samyukta' presented to the Army

it can be used effectively against PAF SAM radar located in the proximity of indian border areas .It can faciliate entry of Rafale & other IAF fighters into PAF airspace .Plus it can prevent detection of launch of ground based Cruise missiles towards pakistan .

2)Ground Launched Cruise missile
-Brahmos Supersonic LACM

Indian army ' brahmos Supersonic LACM can be very effective tool in SEAD missions against PAF SAM /AAAs installations & it can provide very less reaction time for them to take counter measures from 300km or even higher

-Nirbhay Subsonic LACM
indian army subsonic ground launched LACM can also be very effective tool in SEAD mission against PAF SAMs /AAMS
thanks to it's terrain hugging & circumventing radar hot spots it can effectively do it's SEAD mission from a stand off range



problem with cruise missiles it is prone to detection by aerostats/AWACS & also SPADA 2000 can also engage cruise missiles & also jets can be used to intercept cruise missiles with their AA missiles


But a barrage of both supersonic & Subsonic cruise missile attack from indian army after masking it;s launch from india through Samyukta EW suite it can effectively take out PAF air defence by overwhelming it's airdefnce

so some would be intercepted & some would defintely hit


P.S if anyone has something to add to it then plz do post it

 

[DrSomnath999]

POST BLOCKED FROM MY SIDE for RED ENEMY"S SEAD

i would post it later

 

[Juggernautjatt]

Why are we forgetting role of Garuds & Paras in destroying enemy air defence systems. Sabotaging SAM sites is part of their training syllabus.

 

[greatone]

snip

Someone give this man a positive rating or ten

Sir aap bhi doctor ho ?