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Potential in Pakistan-Ukraine Defence Ties?

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POTENTIAL IN PAKISTAN-UKRAINE DEFENCE TIES?
A look at how Pakistan and Ukraine can engage in defence cooperation
An-188-1-692x360.jpg


10 February 2016

By Bilal Khan

Volodymyr Lakomov, Ukraine’s ambassador to Pakistan, expressed hope that Ukraine and Pakistan would strengthen their defence ties, particularly in the area of defence industry cooperation. The Pakistani mediaapparently even quoted Mr. Lakomov saying that Ukraine was “ready to cooperate” in the “supply and joint production of the world-known cargo plane ‘Antonov An-225.’” The An-225 Mriya is the largest aircraft ever designed, but only one was ever built. While the An-225 will not be an area of cooperation between the two countries, the idea that Ukraine is looking at Pakistan as a possible market, and potentially partner, for its aviation goods is definitely worth discussing.

For some background, Pakistan’s defence relations with Ukraine kicked-off in the mid-1990s, specifically in the area of main battle tanks (MBT). In 1996, the Pakistan Army bought 320 T-80UD MBTs from Ukraine. Throughout the early-to-mid 2000s the Army bought diesel engines from Ukraine for use on its al-Khalid and al-Zarrar MBT programs. The latest purchase in this area occurred in 2013 when the Army ordered 110 KMDB 6TD-2 diesel engines for use on its latest al-Khalid MBT batches (SIPRI). In 2006 the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) bought 4 refurbished Ilyushin IL-78 in-flight refuelling tankers.

As one might notice, ties between the two countries have basically revolved around Pakistan making off-the-shelf purchases from Ukraine. However, Ukraine is looking to strengthen those ties, and it may be in Pakistan’s interests to cultivate that growth, especially over the long-term. The two areas where Pakistan could deeply engage with Ukraine in are that of armour (e.g. tanks) and aviation, particularly in the realm of transport aircraft. It seems Mr. Lakomov was particularly hopeful of the latter, which is beginning to see a new surge in life thanks to Antonov’s new line of products, such as the An-178.

The Antonov An-178 is a military transport aircraft capable of carrying 18 tonnes of cargo over a distance of 1000km (IHS Jane’s 360). It is powered by two Progress D-436-148FM turbofan engines (developed in Ukraine). A derivative of the An-148 regional jet airliner, the An-178 is Ukraine’s answer to the market of ageing cargo aircraft in need of replacing over the coming years. While lighter in payload capacity than its direct competitors, such as the C-130J (22 tonnes) and KC-390 (23 tonnes), the An-178 is being marketed as a markedly more affordable option. Antonov is even planning to develop the An-178 to serve as an in-flight refuelling tanker (IHS Jane’s 360). A Westernized variant (An-178-111) equipped with General Electronic or Pratt & Whitney turbofans and Western avionics is also being offered (IHS Jane’s 360).

This platform has the right foundations to be of interest to the PAF. For example, it is a cost-effective system and a fairly mature platform (derived from the An-148 regional airliner, which has been in use since 2009). The PAF could consider working with Antonov to develop an enlarged version of the An-178 (directly comparable in payload capacity the C-130J and KC-390), and in turn, secure a platform it could use to compliment and gradually replace its existing fleet of C-130s. In addition to serving as a medium-lift transport aircraft, the An-178 could double as a tactical tanker. In time, Pakistan could build upon the An-178 program my joining in the larger An-188 (to replace its IL-78s), which is being developed to compete with the Airbus A400M.

The An-178 could also be the entry-point from which Pakistan could develop the capacity to indigenously produce transport aircraft. This may not seem like an area in need of pursuit, but Pakistan should aim to domestically source all of its major defence equipment. In addition to safeguarding the country from sanctions, it can also have long-term economic payoffs in terms of gaining the flexibility to manufacture aircraft and spare-parts for domestic use at cost. With the exception of China and a few other countries, Pakistan does not get many countries approaching it for industrial defence collaboration. This could be a good opportunity to enter the realm of transport aircraft considering Ukraine’s experience, Pakistan ought to consider it.

Besides aviation, Pakistan could continue engaging with Ukraine in the development for armour. In fact, the Pakistan Army reportedly considered the Oplot-M MBT, a development of the T-84 (which in turn is based on the T-80UD). Irrespective of whether the tank itself is selected or not, it is plainly evident that Ukraine has considerable expertise in developing tanks, including key areas such as diesel engines. Perhaps Pakistan could consider acquiring the technology to manufacture such engines domestically for use on a future program, such as the Haider MBT.

In Ukraine, there are genuine opportunities worth exploring, just as there are in South Africa and Brazil. These countries are in a unique position whereby they have clear strengths in advanced technology, but they are beset with various political and economic challenges that push them to view Pakistan as an actual partner. This is a key point because when is considered a partner, they are in a position to actually pursue their interests in-exchange for their contributions. When a country as adept as Ukraine reaches its hand out, it ought to be a matter of urgency for Pakistan to respond in a positive and productive manner.

Potential in Pakistan-Ukraine Defence Ties?
@Horus
 
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In the Field of Armour.
Ukraine offerd us T84 Oplot M as Next Generation MBT............ It was tested and rejected........... However it was stated that it will return back with new engine

211512__t-84-the-bulwark-of-the-tank-ukraine-armor_p.jpg


For Urban Warfare Ukraine can offer us BTR4 .................... but in the presence of Dragoon and Maxproo (may be ZBL9 in future from China) it is highly unlikely that we will buy any Armored Vehicle

BTR 4.jpg


Pakistan C130 fleet is good, but it will need replacement in near future. Ukraine offer An178 which being Jet engine aircraft compared to propelled engine aircraft offer more range, speed, altitude, fuel efficiency, protection compared to C130 aircrafts. Though C130 has slightly more Space.

An178.jpg


As per An188 ............ I don't think so it offer any major leverage to Pakistan. We have IL78 as Tankers. In near Future when Jf17 will be installed IFR probe , these IL78 will be enough to full fill our needs as Tankers. Since none of other PAF aircraft is IFR capable, so IL78 are purely here for Jf17 .............
Instead of An188, I believe that Pakistan must wait for Y20 from China. Which is equivalent of American C17 Globe master in capacity, payload, speed and altitude...............

Here comparing both An178 and C130

2.png


. Perhaps Pakistan could consider acquiring the technology to manufacture such engines domestically for use on a future program, such as the Haider MBT.
Nice one .................. We are using Diesel Powered engines from Ukraine in AZ, AK and T80UD. Ukraine is going to develop new 1500HP engine for Oplot Series. We can use same Engine for future batches of Al Khailds, so a TOT agreement will be very good to offer.


In Ukraine, there are genuine opportunities worth exploring, just as there are in South Africa and Brazil. These countries are in a unique position whereby they have clear strengths in advanced technology, but they are beset with various political and economic challenges that push them to view Pakistan as an actual partner. This is a key point because when is considered a partner, they are in a position to actually pursue their interests in-exchange for their contributions. When a country as adept as Ukraine reaches its hand out, it ought to be a matter of urgency for Pakistan to respond in a positive and productive manner.
You mentioned what Ukraine offers to us.............. but not what Pakistan offers to them.
Ukraine is war torn country with crippled economy and damaged defense industry. Do you think such co operation is even possible in long terms? What we have to offer in aviation industry and armor? We have No money, no tech to offer.
Moreover Ukraine use almost entirely Soviet Based Weapon. They are developing new plateforms but those are also related to Soviet Tech. With increasing warm relations with Russia, don't you think it will result in collision with those of Ukraine?................. What ever Ukraine offers, Russia can offer better (Indian factor though is issue) ...........
 
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In the Field of Armour.
Ukraine offerd us T84 Oplot M as Next Generation MBT............ It was tested and rejected........... However it was stated that it will return back with new engine

View attachment 292742

For Urban Warfare Ukraine can offer us BTR4 .................... but in the presence of Dragoon and Maxproo (may be ZBL9 in future from China) it is highly unlikely that we will buy any Armored Vehicle

View attachment 292743

Pakistan C130 fleet is good, but it will need replacement in near future. Ukraine offer An178 which being Jet engine aircraft compared to propelled engine aircraft offer more range, speed, altitude, fuel efficiency, protection compared to C130 aircrafts. Though C130 has slightly more Space.

View attachment 292745

As per An188 ............ I don't think so it offer any major leverage to Pakistan. We have IL78 as Tankers. In near Future when Jf17 will be installed IFR probe , these IL78 will be enough to full fill our needs as Tankers. Since none of other PAF aircraft is IFR capable, so IL78 are purely here for Jf17 .............
Instead of An188, I believe that Pakistan must wait for Y20 from China. Which is equivalent of American C17 Globe master in capacity, payload, speed and altitude...............

Here comparing both An178 and C130

View attachment 292747


Nice one .................. We are using Diesel Powered engines from Ukraine in AZ, AK and T80UD. Ukraine is going to develop new 1500HP engine for Oplot Series. We can use same Engine for future batches of Al Khailds, so a TOT agreement will be very good to offer.



You mentioned what Ukraine offers to us.............. but not what Pakistan offers to them.
Ukraine is war torn country with crippled economy and damaged defense industry. Do you think such co operation is even possible in long terms? What we have to offer in aviation industry and armor? We have No money, no tech to offer.
Moreover Ukraine use almost entirely Soviet Based Weapon. They are developing new plateforms but those are also related to Soviet Tech. With increasing warm relations with Russia, don't you think it will result in collision with those of Ukraine?................. What ever Ukraine offers, Russia can offer better (Indian factor though is issue) ...........
Pakistan's cooperation with Ukraine would need to be focused in the areas where Ukraine is doing relatively well, Antonov is such an example. As to what Pakistan can offer, it would have to be money to keep those Ukrainian programs (of interest to Pakistan) going; in exchange, Pakistan could ask for technology transfer. If Russia has a problem, then it can offer something of value, if not, then it shouldn't have a problem.

Cha gye ho Bilal Bhai, well done.
Thank you sir!
 
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Yes. In fact, a good thing about the An-178 is that it is based on the An-148, which is a regional jet airliner. If Pakistan were to procure either one, it'd have the foundations to acquire the other.

An-148: Antonov An-148 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An-178: Antonov An-178 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If we can produce a single passenger plane, IMO it will be a greatest achievement so far. If Ukraine is willing then they should grab with both hands.
 
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If we can produce a single passenger plane, IMO it will be a greatest achievement so far. If Ukraine is willing then they should grab with both hands.
The Antonov trading firm is gone, but the production line and commercial rights are directly in the hands of the Ukrainian government. Any deal for aircraft would be government-to-government, and that would be the place to ask (in-exchange for cold cash) for core technologies.
 
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The Antonov trading firm is gone, but the production line and commercial rights are directly in the hands of the Ukrainian government. Any deal for aircraft would be government-to-government, and that would be the place to ask (in-exchange for cold cash) for core technologies.

Its easy to deal with Govt. then a corporate entity and it can be beneficial for us
 
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Rather then Antonov An-225 i really wish that we get Production line of An-178 with Some Improved Oplot-M
 
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Ukraine can offer us some ToT in diesel-engine manufacturing technology. Airliner & cargo plane programs are possible if govt of Pakistan take some serious steps for it. I think they should setup a new aeronautical complex for jets like refullers, airliners, cargo planes etc in some other part of country. Aging C-130s need replacement & Ukrainian offer is good to think. Pakistan can initially manufacture 50+ of these jets in home to replace C-130s & other transport/utility aircrafts. Both PAF & Pakistan Army needs such aircrafts for their requirements. Moreover, our engineers can also modernize this platform to turn it into AWACS, Refueller & airliners etc.
 
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Pakistan and Ukraine can move forward with more liberal approach towards development of Defence industry of both countries. Why not to move forward from technology transfer / trade to craft the roadmap for joint venture in defence industry. Both countries can collaborate for more beneficial projects........lets think about it.
 
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i dont want to do this but its my opinion, here goes...........
this thread is useless............ why?
there are 3 products that urkraine has to offer the, oplot m, the an-178 and the an-70/188
the oplot m. well firstly it failed trials in pakistan. due to numerous reasons. also in the event that if it did they wud still be problm producing it. this is known as thailand is not getting the oplotm's fast enough.possibly getting parts of the tank for use on the ak2 is a good idea but it's unlikely. pakistan is still waiting for china to send the type 99a2 for evaluations.

pics of the oplot m m being loaded on a an-124 to be sent back to urkraine
oplotm3.jpg
oplotm2.jpg
oplotm1.jpg
oplotm.jpg


the an70
now i like this plane alot (more than out a400m's) this plane is likely to be sent to storage. this is because it was part financed by russia who contributed over 2.8 billion rubels and have requested a refund due to a ban on defense sale to russia. can pakistan afford to of set this? also this is just part of the financing as urkraine has reportedly stoped it development. but will restart it if financed. what will pakistan gain from joining development from this. theres no facility large enough to build it nor do i find it feasible to have one unless the order alot. also the an-188 is a concept. again possible if finaced. but this does open a void which would be most likely the y-20. mind you the ll-78 is doing good and urkraine has spare 78's.
the an70
an70-0.jpg

the y-20
y-20-0.jpg


the an-178
now of the 3 products urkraine has to offer, this is the most probable. as its already secured an order for 10 and with a mou for 30+ from a few countries. but then again i feel the kc390 is better as it has a better payload than its cometitors and is cheap but not cheaper than the an-179. also can be apart of a deal to buy the a darter as it built by mectron of brazil as wel. mectron has sold wvraams araams to pakistan.
an_178_0.jpg
kc390-0.jpg

but there is a gem in the hay stack, engine tech. they have recently mastered building engines with after burners which can be used on pakistani jets. jf-17/j31. word out is that motor sich is working on the engine being called the al-222-98f

even this usman charachter agree's with me and he raises a good point. how will this affect your relationship with russia. do you want to break it already when they have just got on the mend?
Ukrainian defense cooperation push with Pakistan unrealistic
 
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Its timely need we should enter in this programe with the help of Ukrine because in future more requirements for PAF PAK army and PIA for cargo aircrafts when our Gawadar port city will be fully functional and operational with CPEC.
 
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Pakistan should pursue this line of opportunity. This may even open up the possibility of a "Pakistan-Ukraine airliner" development opportunity: If that ever happens, Pakistani airlines would never have to worry about old and out of date fleets ever again.

My point is that this could very well lead to massive civil aviation opportunities in Pakistan, similar to what the drone market has done.
 
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