Polygamy is not a religious practice, government tells SC

[footmarks]

No we are not God's children ........ you may think so, but for me Quran clearly discusses this and the last chapter is very clear about this.

Humans are not mirror image of God that's another belief that has no place in Islam. Humans are control freaks and God is lawful and just, humans bring destruction upon themselves and their own kind, God on the other hand gave them brains to think, act, identify good from bad. God doesn't intervene in our affairs, HE gave us the guidance and clearly told us "read it understand it think about it, if you act upon it its for your own good, and if you turn away from it, its your loss".

So god is not our creator? Then who is? Isn't the one who created us should be called as god, and not the one who gave us brain? (that, the giving us a brain, sounds like trying to control someone else's creation, isn't it?)

So a land full of lions and deer and humans and all others living and breathing should remain unchanged forever? Wouldn't that disturb the whole ecosystem? How long one would live till he gets tired and wishes that he could die? These things are governed by laws and the law in Quran is "Everything has to taste death" ......... the order on this Earth would prevail as long as one benefits the other.

Even if qoran doesn't say so, death is a fact. But death should not necessarily mean being killed brutally. Natural death is different from getting killed. No one can live forever, and no one want to die, getting bored of living. People want to die when they feel this world has not treated them well. Happy people don't commit suicide. And all the advances in medical sciences is because we don't want to die. "Ecosystem" is never in equilibrium, it is ever changing - read law of thermodynamics (entropy). Even when there was no life on earth, there was constant changes in the then existing "ecosystem"

Boring ................. struggle is the key ....... Quran stresses saying "A man gets what he struggles for", at another place it says "The state of people won't change unless they themselves struggle to change it". If everything would start photosynthesizing how would plants who really photosynthesize get their food?

Really? (the bold part!!)

A man gets what he struggles for: not always true either. Even after all the struggle, there is an equal probability of success and failure.

And you think humans cannot escape from all these calamities? God didn't order humans to build concrete jungle or live near a volcano.

So what are his orders? to live in caves? (caves that can collapse in an earthquake?). There is no warning sign put up that says "do not inhabit this place, there may be a volcanic eruption any time here"

That's not for me to answer.

It's god that need to answer, but I guess he is not answerable to anyone. Doesn't sound very reassuring that one who directs us, who created us, who can do whatever he wants with our lives, is answerable to no one.

God is not a control freak. HE clearly told us you would be held accountable for your actions in this life. If you believe in life hereafter you would understand, and if you don't then this much I can assure God is not coming to this world to interfere in our affairs and problems ............. HE gave us intelligence, lent us guidance and made us capable of making decisions ............ so we should own our decisions and actions and not blame God for those.

So, we can all fairly conclude this - God, after creating us, giving us intelligence and a holy book for guidance, has abandoned us forever. As a corollary, there is no use to prey and ask for his mercy, it's not coming. As an extension, there is no god anymore, we are left to fend for ourselves - responsible for our actions and not answerable to any supreme being.

 

[Logicaldude]

@waz religious discussion by some members. Please note the topic is NOT religious at all. Govt told court that just because something is allowed in a religion does not make it religious practice. Example - Drinking milk is allowed in christianity - does not make it a christian religious practice.

Its a logical stand from a legal viewpoint. People are mixing religion into it just for claiming victimhood.

 

[I.R.A]

So god is not our creator? Then who is? Isn't the one who created us should be called as god, and not the one who gave us brain? (that, the giving us a brain, sounds like trying to control someone else's creation, isn't it?)

?????? If you invent a robot and enable it to act on its own ........... that robot becomes your child?

Creating something is not fathering something? You misunderstood I guess.

Even if qoran doesn't say so, death is a fact. But death should not necessarily mean being killed brutally. Natural death is different from getting killed. No one can live forever, and no one want to die, getting bored of living. People want to die when they feel this world has not treated them well. Happy people don't commit suicide. And all the advances in medical sciences is because we don't want to die. "Ecosystem" is never in equilibrium, it is ever changing - read law of thermodynamics (entropy). Even when there was no life on earth, there was constant changes in the then existing "ecosystem"

For goodness sake ........... not every living being is getting killed brutally ...... come on lesser focus on Animal Planet and more on life away from media . Watching death everywhere would get you depressed. Cheer up. There is more to this universe than death ...............

I haven't opposed evolution anywhere. By balance I mean balance in production, availability and consumption. Otherwise humans would blame God for the droughts they bring upon themselves.

Really? (the bold part!!)

But plants do have their roots in soil no? And those roots are not for nothing I guess?

A man gets what he struggles for: not always true either. Even after all the struggle, there is an equal probability of success and failure.

You don't expect carrots when you sow potato? Do you? If everything has been done correctly I am sure it will lead to success ............. Blaming God for our failures when we ourselves messed up ....... is not just I think.

So what are his orders? to live in caves? (caves that can collapse in an earthquake?). There is no warning sign put up that says "do not inhabit this place, there may be a volcanic eruption any time here"

You seem to be a scientific person ............. this illogical point wasn't expected from you. Come on.

It's god that need to answer, but I guess he is not answerable to anyone. Doesn't sound very reassuring that one who directs us, who created us, who can do whatever he wants with our lives, is answerable to no one.

So God should be answerable for what? Human's actions? For creating this universe as it is? For giving intelligence to humans? For sending divine guidance to them which they keep refusing and opposing? What exactly?

HE is beyond our narrow thinking and our petty human problems. I won't think of HIM as thinking of any other human. If you had questioned your Prime Minister or any MLA or Elite in this way .......... you would have been put to task by now. But do you see God seeking revenge or considering this an insult to HIM, after all HE can do whatever HE wants, it shouldn't be a problem for him to silence a petty human like me or you?

So, we can all fairly conclude this - God, after creating us, giving us intelligence and a holy book for guidance, has abandoned us forever.

You can take that direction in thinking because you don't believe in Quran and Messengers ........ but I believe in Quran and every word of it so its different for me.

As a corollary, there is no use to prey and ask for his mercy, it's not coming. As an extension, there is no god anymore, we are left to fend for ourselves - responsible for our actions and not answerable to any supreme being.

Then why worry so much ........... go live your life as you wish, try bringing the change as you wish, no Angel of God or God himself is coming to stop you.

But remember this humans invented things they never created anything. The day God had abandoned us Humans and all creations would have died of thirst and hunger. So as long as you are getting something to eat and water to drink just remember its not humans creating these things for you.

 

[unbiasedopinion]

There was a link in my original post "Source" click that and it would lead you to the article itself.

And that article is not related to Islam or Muslims, its a general article. However, I told you that Islam cares for humans and their problems and in times of Messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him) the gender disparity existed because of the conflicts and wars, and hence Muslims were permitted up to 4 wives. Latter when the situation got under control, peace was restored and state was established to take care of its citizens the reason for multiple wives vanished. If you don't know already a lot has been associated with Islam and its history which never happened, latter people used that false history for their own benefits and satisfaction.

In current times if any country doesn't face a situation where the number of women exceeds men then it may stop polygamy but with proper research based facts about gender ratio. And if somehow gender disparity exists and women population is more than the men then polygamy is a logical solution.

Thanks for having logical reasoning and willing to adapt or change the old practices based on current scenarios. This is what is required from all the masses, that religion based practices are not word of GODS, they are just ways to have a balanced society. They tend to change with the passage of time as per the need of that time. Polygamy is not mandatory in Islam, hence taking a strong stand that it is an attack on Islam is immature and childish behavior. It is to reform the society as per current needs. The triple talaq, the sati and all other similar practices were introduced in their respective religions because of the some necessary societial need of their times to keep the fabric of society intact. Now since the times have changed, we no longer are fighting men to men and killing each others in millions, there is no need to have these practices continued.

 

[footmarks]

?????? If you invent a robot and enable it to act on its own ........... that robot becomes your child?

Creating something is not fathering something? You misunderstood I guess.



For goodness sake ........... not every living being is getting killed brutally ...... come on lesser focus on Animal Planet and more on life away from media . Watching death everywhere would get you depressed. Cheer up. There is more to this universe than death ...............

I haven't opposed evolution anywhere. By balance I mean balance in production, availability and consumption. Otherwise humans would blame God for the droughts they bring upon themselves.



But plants do have their roots in soil no? And those roots are not for nothing I guess?



You don't expect carrots when you sow potato? Do you? If everything has been done correctly I am sure it will lead to success ............. Blaming God for our failures when we ourselves messed up ....... is not just I think.



You seem to be a scientific person ............. this illogical point wasn't expected from you. Come on.



So God should be answerable for what? Human's actions? For creating this universe as it is? For giving intelligence to humans? For sending divine guidance to them which they keep refusing and opposing? What exactly?

HE is beyond our narrow thinking and our petty human problems. I won't think of HIM as thinking of any other human. If you had questioned your Prime Minister or any MLA or Elite in this way .......... you would have been put to task by now. But do you see God seeking revenge or considering this an insult to HIM, after all HE can do whatever HE wants, it shouldn't be a problem for him to silence a petty human like me or you?



You can take that direction in thinking because you don't believe in Quran and Messengers ........ but I believe in Quran and every word of it so its different for me.



Then why worry so much ........... go live your life as you wish, try bringing the change as you wish, no Angel of God or God himself is coming to stop you.

But remember this humans invented things they never created anything. The day God had abandoned us Humans and all creations would have died of thirst and hunger. So as long as you are getting something to eat and water to drink just remember its not humans creating these things for you.

Look, I am not questioning your faith, qoran (or any holy book for that matter). What I am questioning is the "concept" and "definition" of god - which is our interpretation of supreme being - guided by holy books, not by our own logic.

Human beings "create" knowledge - knowledge of our surroundings, phenomena, what we see, how it works...basically we seek answers to our doubts, and quest to understand. We can't do that without questioning. It's not the religious diktats that I have a problem with, it's their reasoning for the diktats that I question (if I am not convinced, shouldn't I seek clarification?). Someone said here, Polygamy was allowed in Islam because there were more females than males at that time. Fair enough. Now, males are more than females, shouldn't the opposite be allowed too? Likewise, Sati ritual was allowed in Hindus, fasting to death is allowed in Jainism - those were perhaps questions that were put up for answers, and some religious authority (God didn't gave answers, he gave us intelligence to seek answers ourselves, isn't it?) gave guidance relating to socio-political and religious practices and thinking of that time. Times have changed now, if we still are adamant on sticking rigidly to the books, we are blind.

Whatever is written in holy books is not wrong, it's our interpretation of those guidelines that makes it wrong. In the end, if you seek god, you won't find it in any book. Holy books are for those who are unable to think intelligently on their own. Wise people seek god themselves

 

[I.R.A]

Look, I am not questioning your faith, qoran (or any holy book for that matter). What I am questioning is the "concept" and "definition" of god - which is our interpretation of supreme being - guided by holy books, not by our own logic.

Human beings "create" knowledge - knowledge of our surroundings, phenomena, what we see, how it works...basically we seek answers to our doubts, and quest to understand. We can't do that without questioning. It's not the religious diktats that I have a problem with, it's their reasoning for the diktats that I question (if I am not convinced, shouldn't I seek clarification?). Someone said here, Polygamy was allowed in Islam because there were more females than males at that time. Fair enough. Now, males are more than females, shouldn't the opposite be allowed too? Likewise, Sati ritual was allowed in Hindus, fasting to death is allowed in Jainism - those were perhaps questions that were put up for answers, and some religious authority (God didn't gave answers, he gave us intelligence to seek answers ourselves, isn't it?) gave guidance relating to socio-political and religious practices and thinking of that time. Times have changed now, if we still are adamant on sticking rigidly to the books, we are blind.

Whatever is written in holy books is not wrong, it's our interpretation of those guidelines that makes it wrong. In the end, if you seek god, you won't find it in any book. Holy books are for those who are unable to think intelligently on their own. Wise people seek god themselves

I don't know what and who you have read on Islam and Quran, but as I said in my initial post your thinking is very close to how Quran wants humans to think, I would never recommend interpretations and traditions quoted by humans. Divine message and guidance is for humans and any human interpreting it for other humans would most probably corrupt the original message.

Let me know if you are interested and wish to read I can post links to help you understand where I am coming from.

 

[ShadowCrisp]

It IS a Religious Practice because Quran allows us to have more than one wife.

 

[I.R.A]

It IS a Religious Practice because Quran allows us to have more than one wife.

It is not a religious practice, Quran allows you to have more than one wife depending on situation and circumstances, it doesn't force you to make it a mandatory ritual .............. but again you only look at permission part and ignore the caution ....... "Beware remain within limits".

 

[footmarks]

I don't know what and who you have read on Islam and Quran, but as I said in my initial post your thinking is very close to how Quran wants humans to think, I would never recommend interpretations and traditions quoted by humans. Divine message and guidance is for humans and any human interpreting it for other humans would most probably corrupt the original message.

Let me know if you are interested and wish to read I can post links to help you understand where I am coming from.

I once read somewhere " A true non-believer is the closest and dearest to god. Because in denying god's existence, in rejecting god from the core of his heart, he remembers god each and every day"

I guess I am closer to god than you are , I don't need to read any holy book. I will seek god and question him directly. For only god can give answers, only the god knows (or perhaps, even he doesn't).

 

[salarsikander]

Why should India become a communist nation? It could become a dharmic nation instead and provide equal rights to all.

It couldn't. In 47 the reason why other Muslims and non Muslims stayed back there.
1. India is big country so it would survive
2. It didn't said that

It is not a religious practice, Quran allows you to have more than one wife depending on situation and circumstances, it doesn't force you to make it a mandatory ritual .............. but again you only look at permission part and ignore the caution ....... "Beware remain within limits".

It is. The religion gives me the choice to have more than one lady as a wife( if I can afford etc) so no one notneven Hindus have the right to take that away from me. It is individual choice to get married to twonat the same time. But it cannot be restricted

Its a logical stand from a legal viewpoint. People are mixing religion into it just for claiming victimho

When my religion has given me the choice to, so who are you to restrict it ?
Though I will not go form two wvies and it is impossible to deal with single but I will not let my religious right get restricted

 

[I.R.A]

I once read somewhere " A true non-believer is the closest and dearest to god. Because in denying god's existence, in rejecting god from the core of his heart, he remembers god each and every day"

I guess I am closer to god than you are , I don't need to read any holy book. I will seek god and question him directly. For only god can give answers, only the god knows (or perhaps, even he doesn't).

My friend I am not racing with anyone to find God or become his near and dear one. The God I believe in and worship is all listening, all hearing all watching and all just.

I wouldn't have referred any holy books to you by the way. But anyways thanks for your time.

It is. The religion gives me the choice to have more than one lady as a wife( if I can afford etc) so no one notneven Hindus have the right to take that away from me. It is individual choice to get married to twonat the same time. But it cannot be restricted

Sikander the primary reason in Islam for one to marry is to reproduce and nothing more, Islam advises its followers to be rational, logical and just and not to cross the limits. So instead of making it an ego issue we should look how Islam wants us to act in current times. Considering we are exploding with increasing population already.

If you don't get offended easily then let me also say this that most of the marriages of Messenger (Peace be upon him) were paper marriages, to provide safety and refuge to women who were helpless, when the right time came all of them were given the freedom to leave but they opted to stay (for obvious reasons, what better company and refuge than Messenger of ALLAH). It is only logical to marry more than once if God forbid there is some problem in reproducing that is female is barren etc, but on the other hand it is highly possible to cross the limits when one feels that he has the money so he can marry more than one woman .... some of us abuse this permission and would divorce women to keep the number restricted to four ........... do you think this is what Islam would want us to do? Isn't it more towards satisfying lust than to accomplish the reproduction?

 

[salarsikander]

My friend I am not racing with anyone to find God or become his near and dear one. The God I believe in and worship is all listening, all hearing all watching and all just.

I wouldn't have referred any holy books to you by the way. But anyways thanks for your time.



Sikander the primary reason in Islam for one to marry is to reproduce and nothing more, Islam advises its followers to be rational, logical and just and not to cross the limits. So instead of making it an ego issue we should look how Islam wants us to act in current times. Considering we are exploding with increasing population already.

If you don't get offended easily then let me also say this that most of the marriages of Messenger (Peace be upon him) were paper marriages, to provide safety and refuge to women who were helpless, when the right time came all of them were given the freedom to leave but they opted to stay (for obvious reasons, what better company and refuge than Messenger of ALLAH). It is only logical to marry more than once if God forbid there is some problem in reproducing that is female is barren etc, but on the other hand it is highly possible to cross the limits when one feels that he has the money so he can marry more than one woman .... some of us abuse this permission and would divorce women to keep the number restricted to four ........... do you think this is what Islam would want us to do? Isn't it more towards satisfying lust than to accomplish the reproduction?

Proper well rehearsed reply. Can't argue. Then it is the jib of Islamic leadership yo educate but again , this is purely targeting Muslims for the sake of being muslim

 

[I.R.A]

Proper well rehearsed reply. Can't argue. Then it is the jib of Islamic leadership yo educate but again , this is purely targeting Muslims for the sake of being muslim

Thank you for agreeing. Islamic leadership

If anything that is done to Muslims to harm them but in reality that would improve their living standard, I won't resist it that much. It doesn't cost us much but peace in life and betterment of our children, if we remain married to one.

 

[footmarks]

Proper well rehearsed reply. Can't argue. Then it is the jib of Islamic leadership yo educate but again , this is purely targeting Muslims for the sake of being muslim

Muslim women are raising their concerns, should the Govt not listen to their plight? Why should Govt only listen to the Muslim patriarchs? Had they acted moderation and disallowed this triple talaq practice, Govt would not have the compulsion to intervene. This has nothing to do with religion, except that this practice is maligning the very basic tenets of religion, by the practising muslims who misuse this "allowance" on large scale.

 

[salarsikander]

Muslim women are raising their concerns, should the Govt not listen to their plight? Why should Govt only listen to the Muslim patriarchs? Had they acted moderation and disallowed this triple talaq practice, Govt would not have the compulsion to intervene. This has nothing to do with religion, except that this practice is maligning the very basic tenets of religion, by the practising muslims who misuse this "allowance" on large scale.

Oh please save us from your bullshit ! Got that. India is built on upon expecting social and religious diversity, once you start fingering it. It won't take long for people ho speak more than 60 languages to get divided.

Thank you for agreeing. Islamic leadership

If anything that is done to Muslims to harm them but in reality that would improve their living standard, I won't resist it that much. It doesn't cost us much but peace in life and betterment of our children, if we remain married to one.

That is true. Sticking to one lady is more than enough, and having two oh god help us men.

But I pray that I do not get into situation where for the sake of protecting young lady I will have to take her under my nikkah, though my wife wouldn't disagree, but I know it will be hard for her.

But restricting the choice and right I have by Islam cannot be just absolved

s, should the Govt not listen to their plig

Which makes me wonder if govt is there to ' listen' to their plight, then why do I keep hearing the sound of pellet guns and have to see monstrosity on huge scale. Seems like selective listening is the case here, don't you think ?