Poll on Nationalism vs Religion for Pakistani members

[Kambojaric]

Ideologically I want to say nation first and then religion. Realistically however this is not possible as Islam as it stands is an intrinsic part of most Pakistanis concept of the "nation". With urbanization and industrialization this mindset will inevitably change in the coming decades, but as it stands the answer is that most Pakistanis will not be able to see the difference between nation and Islam.

 

[padamchen]

I wonder why Pakistanis give our Muslims such a hard time ...

Sometimes I think its the bitter cross-generational aftertaste of what they saw as betrayal.

Often else (mainly here) there are classist-racist undertones to it.

They would throw a hissy fit about our Muslims saying India first. Yet its apparently ok for them to say Pakistan first?

I don't get it. Do you @rott ? Why are our Muslims treated as children of a lesser God by our cuzins next door?

@jamahir your egalitarian two paise?

Cheers, Doc

 

[313ghazi]

Dear Pakistani members, we would like to see your preference. The choice is simple.
Pakistan or Islam.

I once had this conversation before with some Chinese members, it helped me better understand the Chinese perspective on religion. I voted that I would put my religion ahead of my country, and I would like to explain my answer.

All Muslims believe in a few simple things;

1. All people have been created by God
2. God loves all people.
3. Our life in this journey is a temporary and a test of our loyalty to God.
4. The reward for that loyalty will be eternal life in heaven after death.

Now if we were all to focus on these things alone, we would live a very simple life, spent in worship and only the things needed to survive, we would do only good and live the life of a monk or something like that.

At the same time;

All Muslims are human beings. We have all the desires, faults and needs of other human beings. We spend our lives just like you to fulfill these needs and desires. We make the same mistakes, have the same fears and hopes. Some of the teachings of our religion (as with all religions) ask us to keep away from bad and do good, to have trust in God to care and provide for us. At the same time our religion teaches us to learn, to work, to defend ourselves.

How does this relate to the nation state? Our nation state provides us many things. It provides security, it provides opportunity, it provides governance, all things we as humans desire. In return we feel loyalty to our state. Yet at the same time, sometimes the state can be an oppressor, a danger, it can cause us harm - at that point all people will have their loyalty to the state challenged/shaken.

This behavior is not limited to the state, the same is true for our friends, our families, our community, our tribes.

Islam teaches us to expect the same of our co-religionists and of humanity. This is something that is not highlighted in the way non Muslims understand Islam. Islam teaches us to be loyal to the people of our faith, to treat them like our brothers, to wish for them which we wish for ourselves. However that expectation is not limited to just the people who are Muslim. It is extended to humanity. Our religion does not allow us to cause harm to you, any more than it does to someone who is Muslim. It does not demand more loyalty to a Muslim than a non Muslim - instead it requires justice. It requires us to be just in our dealings with all creation.

If this is the case why is there so much friction with Islam/Muslims? We are humans. Not a single law in China allows injustice against anyone, yet there will be incidents of injustice. Sometimes these will be by individuals, sometimes by groups, sometimes by the state itself. The same is true for Muslims. Our religion teaches us to be just and to trust God will provide. Yet our nature as humans is to be cautious. We do not trust our neighbour or our friends like we trust our family. We do not trust fellow citizens, like we trust our community. We humans build relations and grow trust based on those relations. Muslims are no different. We trust our co-religionists in different degrees, we trust our nation and it's citizens to different degrees - all based on our level of trust.

I have loyalty to two nations. My ancestry is Pakistani and I identify as Pakistani. I was born and raised in Britain and I also identify as British. I will be loyal to both nations as long as I am safe and I am not oppressed. I personally feel a greater link to my Pakistani identity because I share a religion, a culture and ethnicity with Pakistan, where I only share a part of my culture with Britain. That does not make me disloyal - that makes me a minority.

I also have loyalty to God. My loyalty to God is above all. If Pakistan or Britain were to prevent me from worship of God, I would put my loyalty to God above them. Other than that I have complete loyalty to the nations I live in. Britain commited crimes against Muslims across the world, I condemn those crimes, but I will not commit harm or treason because of those crimes. I do not have the authority to hold the people who commited those crimes to justice. Those crimes were commited by a government, not my fellow nationals. The Pakistani government commits injustices against it's populace. It will not reduce my loyalty to Pakistan, even though I will ask for justice where I see injustice. God will never be unjust to me.

Truth be told, it's very complex.

 

[Rollno21]

Thank bro. You and me think alike.

Bro,you are talking to guys who cannot differentiate between country and religion ,see majority of them saying country and religion are same for them.

 

[Zhukov]

What if a Muslim country which is anti Pakistan and a non Muslim country who supports Pakistan, who Pakistanis believe is their enemy?

No Need to ask this question. Look at the attitude of Pakistanis on this forum and on whole internet towards a non Muslim Country China and compare it with the hostile attitude toward a Muslim neibour Afghanistan. China Turkey and Saudi Arabia are close allies not on the basis of common religion. But a lot of factors combined. Yes Religion is a factor but not a key factor. On the other hand. Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Saddam Era Iraq were not so much ALLIES even being 100% Muslim countries dont you think

 

[M. Sarmad]

During the struggle for the freedom(and even today), the most important issue which concerned Muslim Scholars and political activists was about the national and religious identity of Indian Muslims and their position in the future India ...


Hussain Ahmed Madani (The Rector of Darul Uloom Deoband) and many others advocated "Composite Nationalism", (i.e. despite cultural, linguistic and religious differences, the people of India were but one nation). The proponents of composite nationalism believed/argued that this idea was consistent with the teachings of the Holy Quran and that the Prophet (PBUH) himself had set a practical example of Composite Nationalism when he signed the Constitution of Medina (Meesaq-e-Medina)



Then there were those who advocated the idea of "Muslim Nationalism in India" ... This idea formed the basis of the Two Nation Theory ... This idea/theory implies/implied that We were Muslims before being Indian ... And We were Indian before being (Non-Indian) Muslim ... This theory created and propounded by modernist and reformist Muslims (like Sir Syed) was inspired by Western Political Theories (of John Lock, Thomas Paine, Milton etc.).... It in a way advocated a Pan-Islamism that was restricted by geographical boundaries of the Nation state (of India, and now Pakistan).


And there were others (like Maududi) who were of the view that neither Composite Nationalism nor Muslim Nationalism were Islamic in their orientation, therefore, they warned the Muslims of the sub-continent to be beware of both. Few of them advocated "Pan-Islamism"


I believe the Pakistani nationalist ideology is very unique, and (for the Pakistani Muslims at least) Pakistani Nationalism and Islam are not mutually exclusive ..... I for one do not prioritize a Pakistani identity over Muslim identity (or vice versa). But there are those who claim to be Pakistani First, and then there are those who say that they are Muslim First. Both these claims are consistent with TNT as the TNT has both ingredients; Pan-Islamic and Nationalist. But as it is Pan-Islamism that is restricted by the Nation State boundary (and not the other way around), "Pakistani First", in my opinion, is the more valid and realistic position.

 

[haidian]

4. The reward for that loyalty will be eternal life in heaven after death.
.

Do you truly believe in this? Not even the slightest doubt that maybe there will be nothing after we die? I don't believe there is another life, so make the most of this life, work hard and enjoy the fruits of your hardwork, live this only life full.

 

[313ghazi]

Do you truly believe in this? Not even the slightest doubt that maybe there will be nothing after we die? I don't believe there is another life, so make the most of this life, work hard and enjoy the fruits of your hardwork, live this only life full.

It's so strange isn't it? Yes i do. Sometimes it is hard to see the reason in it, but simply because I cannot evidence something, or understand something - doesn't mean it can't be true.

This faith does not mean that I do not strive to fulfill my hopes and ambitions in this world, it doesn't mean i aim for any less than any other man. It simply means that in my pursuit of happiness, I choose not to wrong others. Ultimately if I have not harmed others, when i leave this world, even if i just turn to dust - at least those who remain will know i caused them no harm in their pursuit.

 

[Indos]

The true Muslim will choose Islam first.

 

[rott]

Bro,you are talking to guys who cannot differentiate between country and religion ,see majority of them saying country and religion are same for them.

It's a very complicated decision I am afraid.

Putting country before religion is still a bit ahead but a very tight race. It seems to me like 48 percent of the Pakistanis place religion before country so far.

Put country before religion
11 vote(s)
39.3%
Put religion before country
8 vote(s)
28.6%
*
Country and religion - equal
9 vote(s)
32.1%

No Need to ask this question. Look at the attitude of Pakistanis on this forum and on whole internet towards a non Muslim Country China and compare it with the hostile attitude toward a Muslim neibour Afghanistan. China Turkey and Saudi Arabia are close allies not on the basis of common religion. But a lot of factors combined. Yes Religion is a factor but not a key factor. On the other hand. Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Saddam Era Iraq were not so much ALLIES even being 100% Muslim countries dont you think

I like your post and appreciate it very much. But still I find something missing....

 

[haidian]

The true Muslim will choose Islam first.

If that's so there should be no wars and conflicts between Muslim countries and oil rich Muslim countries should share their wealth with poor Muslim countries.

 

[abbasniazi]

To me Islam and Pakistan are synonyms, because Pakistan is the only country which was founded for practical application of Islam. but if i have to make a priority list Islam would be my ultimate choice.

 

[El Sidd]

Pakistanis place religion before country so far.

You do know that 90 percent of Pakistanis cannot distinguish between religion and country?

Anyhow I am now interested. How do you define religion?

 

[rott]

You do know that 90 percent of Pakistanis cannot distinguish between religion and country?

What do you mean?

 

[Super Falcon]

Islam is a pillar of pakistan and its soul without it pakistan is nothing