'PM gives go-ahead for ground operation in Shawal Valley'

[TankMan]

Even the army has skeletons in it's own closet. The army must be subservient to the parliament, not the PM, that is how the rule of law is suppose to work.

Like I said you are free to believe what you want. But keep in mind, those who have skeletons in their closets are in no bargaining position!

Hypothetically speaking IF the Army has skeletons in it's closet, what is the PM going to do? Take on the wrath of the whole Army?

How it is supposed to work, and how it works are two different things! Seems like you haven't figure it out by now!!!

The Army as an institution can not have 'skeletons in its closet'; Individual generals can, but I doubt the current COAS has any. And even if he did, the entire Army can not be blackmailed by politicians on that basis. The Army's skeletons are irrelevant.

Politicians like the PM, on the other hand, are individuals and corrupt ones. They have very many weaknesses that the Army can exploit if it had to.

However, the military leadership seems to be purposely trying to make things the way they're supposed to by seeking the PM's approval and so on - even if they have to put some pressure on politicians behind the scenes. The idea is to set a precedent for the future, to let the country move forward, despite the short term issues.

How it works is that geopolitics has dictated that the army back off from political interference. The KSA request for soldiers and subsequent rejection, should have been a clear indication of where the army stands today in Pakistan. While still the most respected institution in Pakistan, they know that they cannot interfere in political affairs of the nation. A coup is out of the question, as it would probably destroy Pakistan's current unity.

If anything, it's the military that can't do a thing, while the PM can simply go to parliament, or even the judiciary to gain backing.

The military is no longer the same force that it used to be. It's far too busy fighting a war, and keeping the security situation stable to challenge the political apparatus effectively.

Again, this isn't about what I believe, this is simply the reality of the situation.

I disagree. The military can gain all the support it needs to if it wanted to. They'd easily have public support, and the politicians are very easy to manipulate.

If needed, the military can manipulate the political affairs so much that a coup would become an option. They even had opportunities before.

The military is the same force that it used to be, only it's trying to channel all of that force into security and choosing not to involve itself in politics; If they wanted to, they had very good opportunities during the protests, model town chaos, they could've even taken over after the Peshawar attack if they wanted to.

Most probably, the military leadership has made the decision not to directly involve itself in politics and to allow democracy to move forward; some even suggest that it was the military that pushed PMLN and PTI to settle on the rigging investigation commission, and is indirectly trying to influence politics by going after many of the politicians' funding and illegal activities - which is entirely possible though we can't say for certain.

As for the KSA's request being rejected, i doubt that's indicative of anything. The PM himself has very many interests in there; if the Army had to give up on some of its interests, so did the PM and civilian government. This means that either the politicians gave up on their interests and pushed the army to do the same, or the military gave up on its interests in KSA and had the politicians abandon theirs. The second is a lot more likely.

 

[Indus Falcon]

How it works is that geopolitics has dictated that the army back off from political interference. The KSA request for soldiers and subsequent rejection, should have been a clear indication of where the army stands today in Pakistan. While still the most respected institution in Pakistan, they know that they cannot interfere in political affairs of the nation. A coup is out of the question, as it would probably destroy Pakistan's current unity.

If anything, it's the military that can't do a thing, while the PM can simply go to parliament, or even the judiciary to gain backing.

The military is no longer the same force that it used to be. It's far too busy fighting a war, and keeping the security situation stable to challenge the political apparatus effectively.

Again, this isn't about what I believe, this is simply the reality of the situation.

Funny that you should mention the KSA incident !!! That was clearly a case of how the Army told the Govt "NO". Had it been up to the Govt., troops would have been sent eons ago. But you are twisting it to save your face.

Nobody is talking about a coup. This time around the Army won't take over unless it is pushed well beyond its limits. The game will be played very differently. You won't have to wait for long, it's already happening!

As to your political interference statement - Whats happening in Sindh?

Anyways you are free to believe in Parliament, Judiciary, fairies, elves, dwarfs, unicorns, and anything else that pleases your fancy!

The Army as an institution can not have 'skeletons in its closet'; Individual generals can, but I doubt the current COAS has any. And even if he did, the entire Army can not be blackmailed by politicians on that basis. The Army's skeletons are irrelevant.

Politicians like the PM, on the other hand, are individuals and corrupt ones. They have very many weaknesses that the Army can exploit if it had to.

However, the military leadership seems to be purposely trying to make things the way they're supposed to by seeking the PM's approval and so on - even if they have to put some pressure on politicians behind the scenes. The idea is to set a precedent for the future, to let the country move forward, despite the short term issues.

.

1) "Skeletons in the closet" was aimed at the Politicians / Govt

2) IF someone has the guts to blackmail PA - now that would be real entertainment!

3) The agenda that the Army has as of now, is only one. Security. Clean up this terrorism mess. Nothing else.

 

[ConcealCarry]

Really? don't tell me this stupid statement of your is not hate based against PM. Every military operation needs financial resources which come from PM's approval.. besides COA reports to PM. Your blind hate against PM is your personal matter, but that does not change the constitution or the COA's reporting or the way the government functions. The benefit of internet forums is that everyone can learn something, provided they are willing to.

Somebody needs to tell the PM, his go ahead doesn't mean two cents!

 

[TankMan]

1) "Skeletons in the closet" was aimed at the Politicians / Govt

And rightly so. I was responding to @That Guy who said the Army had some skeletons of its own.

2) IF someone has the guts to blackmail PA - now that would be real entertainment!

It would be indeed.

3) The agenda that the Army has as of now, is only one. Security. Clean up this terrorism mess. Nothing else.

It is their main agenda, yes, but don't forget that they have to be proactive and deal with Indian proxy warfare and the attempts to sabotage the CPEC, which is very important for Pakistan in the future. Also, dealing with terrorism means dealing with political mafias and 'militant wings', which then also includes things like money laundering.

One thing is for certain: the military has a lot of agendas, all of which are in Pakistan's best interest.

 

[Indus Falcon]

It is their main agenda, yes, but don't forget that they have to be proactive and deal with Indian proxy warfare and the attempts to sabotage the CPEC, which is very important for Pakistan in the future. Also, dealing with terrorism means dealing with political mafias and 'militant wings', which then also includes things like money laundering.

A certain influential eastern brother, is giving us a serious helping hand on that front. ANDthis time, it isn't just restricted to ISR

 

[That Guy]

Funny that you should mention the KSA incident !!! That was clearly a case of how the Army told the Govt "NO". Had it been up to the Govt., troops would have been sent eons ago. But you are twisting it to save your face.

Twisting what? It was NS's decision to refer the matter to the parliament, not the military's. In fact, the military actually stepped back, and let the politicians decide, with rumors that the military actually wanted to go. There is no twisting, and I request that you stop your mudslinging.

Nobody is talking about a coup. This time around the Army won't take over unless it is pushed well beyond its limits. The game will be played very differently. You won't have to wait for long, it's already happening!

Nothing is happening, except for civilian institutions becoming stronger. The logical conclusion for your assessment is inevitably a coup, even if it is a covert one.

As to your political interference statement - Whats happening in Sindh?

You know very well what happened. The massive amount of violence needed to be brought down, it was a government decision to deploy the rangers to combat the militants and gangs in the province, since the Sindh-PPP government was next to worthless (as usual).

In fact, the fact that the government very strongly defended the operation shows that NS had may have had a personal hand in the launching of the operation, and it wasn't just a federal decision.

Anyways you are free to believe in Parliament, Judiciary, fairies, elves, dwarfs, unicorns, and anything else that pleases your fancy!

Again, I would request you not insult me. I am trying to be respectable, I ask you be the same.

 

[AUz]

@Icarus @Irfan Baloch

How many more areas need to be taken control of before the war is officially over and we move to "sweeping" the remnants?

 

[Paksanity]

we are not going to win this war

By God we will. My children will live in better Pakistan!

 

[Indus Falcon]

Really? don't tell me this stupid statement of your is not hate based against PM. Every military operation needs financial resources which come from PM's approval.. besides COA reports to PM. Your blind hate against PM is your personal matter, but that does not change the constitution or the COA's reporting or the way the government functions. The benefit of internet forums is that everyone can learn something, provided they are willing to.

No this statement is NOT based on hate against the PM. Happy?

Do you have any clue how the COAS, and his predecessors have reported to any of the PM's? If so please enlighten us!

 

[That Guy]

The Army as an institution can not have 'skeletons in its closet'; Individual generals can, but I doubt the current COAS has any. And even if he did, the entire Army can not be blackmailed by politicians on that basis. The Army's skeletons are irrelevant.

By army, I meant the ones in charge, so yeah, I agree.

Politicians like the PM, on the other hand, are individuals and corrupt ones. They have very many weaknesses that the Army can exploit if it had to.

Of course, but the problem is that it won't, simply because of the risks involved. Pakistan is united, ironically, by a sense of national political unity. Even if all political parties hate each other, a majority of them have made it clear that they will not tolerate overt military interference. Plus, the elections have guaranteed that there is popular want for democratic institutions, free from military rule.

However, the military leadership seems to be purposely trying to make things the way they're supposed to by seeking the PM's approval and so on - even if they have to put some pressure on politicians behind the scenes. The idea is to set a precedent for the future, to let the country move forward, despite the short term issues.

On this, we can agree.

Anyway, I would reply to the rest of your comment, but something has come up, so let's just leave it at that.

We both have presented most of our argument, it's up to the readers to decide what they think.

 

[420canada]

Because he thinks the world revolves around him!

its called democracy and if i am not wrong Pakistan is one.

 

[As is - where is]

I think that this is a good move by Pakistan. So far there were only airstrikes and drone strikes in that area. It was about time the ground forces stepped in as well.

 

[TankMan]

By army, I meant the ones in charge, so yeah, I agree.

The best part about the military is that it's strong as an institution; dirt on, say, the COAS, can not be used to manipulate the entire institution since it doesn't cater entirely to the interests of one person or family.

Of course, but the problem is that it won't, simply because of the risks involved. Pakistan is united, ironically, by a sense of national political unity. Even if all political parties hate each other, a majority of them have made it clear that they will not tolerate overt military interference. Plus, the elections have guaranteed that there is popular want for democratic institutions, free from military rule.

I fail to see how that is a problem. Unless some of the politicians decide to do something very bad for Pakistan, the military doesn't want or have to overtly influence anything. Pakistan can tolerate another few years of sham democracy (I know I may be exaggerating, but this definitely isn't a proper one) if it means that an actual and proper democracy will develop out of it; as long as essential things like the CPEC and Electoral Reform are allowed to happen, the military doesn't need to overtly or directly involve itself into politics.

However, the military leadership seems to be purposely trying to make things the way they're supposed to by seeking the PM's approval and so on - even if they have to put some pressure on politicians behind the scenes. The idea is to set a precedent for the future, to let the country move forward, despite the short term issues.

On this, we can agree.

Very well,
It's nice to have a serious and intelligent political discussion once in a while.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Twisting what? It was NS's decision to refer the matter to the parliament, not the military's. In fact, the military actually stepped back, and let the politicians decide, with rumors that the military actually wanted to go. There is no twisting, and I request that you stop your mudslinging.
.

The military didn't step back. The military told him these exact words "If you want to fight their war, you are free to go and fight it." There were ZERO rumors that the Army wanted to go in.

The only reason NS went to the parliament was to save face in front of the Saudis.

There is no mud slinging. You are twisting facts to suit your agenda!

Nothing is happening, except for civilian institutions becoming stronger. The logical conclusion for your assessment is inevitably a coup, even if it is a covert one.
.

Civilian institutions are not any stronger than they were before NS came to power. Corrupt politicians from one party replaced corrupt politicians from another party. Nothing changed.

You can openly be a PML-N supporter, we won't lynch you. Don't worry!

You know very well what happened. The massive amount of violence needed to be brought down, it was a government decision to deploy the rangers to combat the militants and gangs in the province, since the Sindh-PPP government was next to worthless (as usual).

In fact, the fact that the government very strongly defended the operation shows that NS had may have had a personal hand in the launching of the operation, and it wasn't just a federal decision.

Your Analysis of the Sindh operation, and negating the role of the Army, is as far from the truth as humanly possible!!

But like I said, you are free to believe whatever you want, just don't expect people to buy it!!!

 

[macnurv]

Somebody needs to tell the PM, his go ahead doesn't mean two cents!

No matter how empty and useless we deem this parliament and these elected politicians are, but none the less this is what we have for the time being. So military needs financial and more importantly political support for this operation, so I think this is the right step.

What is more important is what they stated about Sindh, the message was clear we are still focused on you.