PK 18 Battlefield Rifle , SMG PK 21 (AK-103) and PK-10 are way forward

[Ahmet Pasha]

I'm gonna say something most of us will not like.

I thjnk Army still has alot of much corruption and incompetence when it comes to making things.

HIT and POF are disasters they could have made so much more money.

 

[Invictus.inc]

The problem is Pakistan Army Persistence with 7.62 x 51 Ammunition. They should switch to 5.45 x 45 and get licensed production of CZ Bren 2 or any other modern assault rifle. All modern firearms are designed around the 5.45 x 45 Cartridge.

Dude what caliber is 5.45 x 45?
Or did you magically invent one?

 

[Zhukov]

Dude what caliber is 5.45 x 45?
Or did you magically invent one?

i meant 5.56 x 45. Typo Error
Mixed the NATO 5.56 x 45 and Russian 5.45 x 39 Calibers my bad.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I don't think Army is going to hedge its bets on PK-10 (AR-10). If they wanted to, they had Sig & Colt rifles (AR-10 frames) in the competition.

In of itself, licensing an existing COTS design isn't a bad idea. But the issue with POF is that it won't do anything of substance to generate a return (via 3rd party sales) from such an investment. Their marketing isn't good, but with decent work they can generate $1 b in sales each year across all channels. There's no real drive for such work.

Moreover, switching to a new design would also mean changing a lot of how POF functions, e.g., I bet the new rifles are built via automated facilities, so that would mean cutting or re-allocating a lot of labour. Sadly, state-owned entities are a convenient means to keep lots of folks busy and fed via inefficient tasks, be it POF, PIA, PSML, etc.

 

[Path-Finder]

The problem is Pakistan Army Persistence with 7.62 x 51 Ammunition. They should switch to 5.56 x 45 and get licensed production of CZ Bren 2 or any other modern assault rifle. All modern firearms are designed around the 5.56 x 45 Cartridge.

556 is on its way out! 6.8 will be the new cartridge so adopting 556 when US is going to adopt 6.8 is not keeping apace with change.

 

[Armchair]

Honorable Sir,

IMO you are asking too much of POF. POF’s main task was to make Pakistan self-sufficient in the manufacture ammunition & small arms requirement of Pak Army. This has been achieved by manufacturing under ‘Licence’.

Apparently, there is a section of POF called Defence Science & Technology dedicated to R & D but it lacks sufficient funds and the number of qualified personnel. If we really want POF to come up with innovative military technology; at first we would need to allocate adequate resources in men & material then be patient for a few years. But can Pak Army wait that long?

It takes a single gunsmith to come up with a new design. What a poor and ridiculous excuse.

 

[Sine Nomine]

556 is on its way out! 6.8 will be the new cartridge so adopting 556 when US is going to adopt 6.8 is not keeping apace with change.

Who told you so?

 

[Path-Finder]

Who told you so?

Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

Read about NGSW a long time ago in detail,all short listed systems have pretty slim chance except MCX,that to if adopted in limited number.
Talks of Cal and Rifle replacement goes back to late 90's with XM-8,OICW,6.8 SPC,6.5's,.300 blk to name a few choices examined and discarded over time.
Any new system brings nothing new at table and with huge amount of 5.56 and x51 Nato ammo sitting around,these cals are going nowhere else.

P.S:-Read about 7.62x54R it's oldest and only rimmed cartridge in service in 21st century,post WW2 it only survived in USSR due to sheer amount of it lying in USSR depots.

 

[Zhukov]

Read about NGSW a long time ago in detail,all short listed systems have pretty slim chance except MCX,that to if adopted in limited number.
Talks of Cal and Rifle replacement goes back to late 90's with XM-8,OICW,6.8 SPC,6.5's,.300 blk to name a few choices examined and discarded over time.
Any new system brings nothing new at table and with huge amount of 5.56 and x51 Nato ammo sitting around,these cals are going nowhere else.

P.S:-Read about 7.62x54R it's oldest and only rimmed cartridge in service in 21st century,post WW2 it only survived in USSR due to sheer amount of it lying in USSR depots.

their is a Reason why all modern armies have moved away from Lethal Heavy Rounds to light less deadly ammunition.
The Western Countries moved away from 7.62 x 51 NATO to 5.56 x 45
While the Eastern Block moved from 7.62 x 39 to 5.45 x 39
China from 7.62x39 to 5.8 x 42

-Modern Ammunition is Light weight and hence easier to carry. Soldiers can carry more ammunition. i.e Higher Carrying capacity per soldier.
-Modern Ammunition is less lethal, Causing the Enemy soldiers to carry huge amount of Wounded incapacitated soldiers.Wounded soldiers are a massive toll on battle field for fighting armies compared to dead soldiers.
-Modern Ammunition have higher Muzzle Velocity ( Jacket of 7.62 NATO is more then twice as heavy as 5.56 NATO)
-Less Recoil
As for New Guns. Imagine a G3 vs CZ Bren 2.
CZ Bren 2 can be adopted for both left and right handed use, Its Mag release and Slide lock are on both sides, It is much lighter, It has built in 4 Picatinny Rails for Detachments, It has Folding Stock, Rubber Butt Stock grip.
Easier to handle, Easy to maintain, customization to Soldier's Preferences, More Ammo per soldier, You don't need to drag the Type 56 along with G-3 If you can adopt a single modern standard Rifle.

The Existing G3 Stock and Ammunition can be phased out to Paramilitary, Reserves and Law enforcement forces. And For the Love of God Get rid of those Ancient T-56 Rifles of the Police Forces. AK/T-56 are Favorite rifles of Thugs and Outlaws, An Industry is running for AK style Rifles due to Use by Law enforcement. Scrapping the T56/AK will do more good then harm. Arm them with G3 and Arm the Armed Forces with Modern Rifles and Calibre

 

[Amaa'n]

I don't think Army is going to hedge its bets on PK-10 (AR-10). If they wanted to, they had Sig & Colt rifles (AR-10 frames) in the competition.

In of itself, licensing an existing COTS design isn't a bad idea. But the issue with POF is that it won't do anything of substance to generate a return (via 3rd party sales) from such an investment. Their marketing isn't good, but with decent work they can generate $1 b in sales each year across all channels. There's no real drive for such work.

Moreover, switching to a new design would also mean changing a lot of how POF functions, e.g., I bet the new rifles are built via automated facilities, so that would mean cutting or re-allocating a lot of labour. Sadly, state-owned entities are a convenient means to keep lots of folks busy and fed via inefficient tasks, be it POF, PIA, PSML, etc.

i don't know how authentic is the source below, but i believe the guy....last time when POF introduced PK9, clone of berrtta, turns out it was not even manufactured at POF facility, they had outsourced the contract for manufacturing to someone in Small Industrial Estate, Peshawar.

Badar Brother & Sons were the OEM for that clone.....i wonder whose idea is to reintroduce the same model under different name this time

https://twitter.com/x/status/1252292047798763522

 

[Sine Nomine]

their is a Reason why all modern armies have moved away from Lethal Heavy Rounds to light less deadly ammunition.
The Western Countries moved away from 7.62 x 51 NATO to 5.56 x 45
While the Eastern Block moved from 7.62 x 39 to 5.45 x 39
China from 7.62x39 to 5.8 x 42

West has gone again for searching new cal and have been trying with different one's like .300 Blackout,6.5's and 6.8 SPC-II.

While the Eastern Block moved from 7.62 x 39 to 5.45 x 39

7.62x39 still remains in front line service in EB.

China from 7.62x39 to 5.8 x 42

Do take a look at at 5.8x42,it's new but still in same class as x39.
5.56 doesn't suits the region we are fighting in.
Rest of your post is pretty much futile,deploying battle rifle is need of Pakistan,we have several million rounds of Ammo lying in form of x39 and x51 Nato,what we are suppose to do with that?
Type 56 is a good rifle,it lacks bells and whistles you see on AR-15's,but none the less it has proven itself to be a very versatile platform for the purpose it was fielded in mass numbers crica 2010.Cal 7.62x51 is used for Battle Rifles which are part of Pakistani Doctrine.
PS:-Take a look at deployment of SCAR-H,MK-14 and M110 in US forces.Take a look at Indian purchase of Sig Sauer SIG716 7.62x51 mm assault rifles and AK-203's.

 

[Zhukov]

West has gone again for searching new cal and have been trying with different one's like .300 Blackout,6.5's and 6.8 SPC-II.

7.62x39 still remains in front line service in EB.

Do take a look at at 5.8x42,it's new but still in same class as x39.
5.56 doesn't suits the region we are fighting in.
Rest of your post is pretty much futile,deploying battle rifle is need of Pakistan,we have several million rounds of Ammo lying in form of x39 and x51 Nato,what we are suppose to do with that?
Type 56 is a good rifle,it lacks bells and whistles you see on AR-15's,but none the less it has proven itself to be a very versatile platform for the purpose it was fielded in mass numbers crica 2010.Cal 7.62x51 is used for Battle Rifles which are part of Pakistani Doctrine.
PS:-Take a look at deployment of SCAR-H,MK-14 and M110 in US forces.Take a look at Indian purchase of Sig Sauer SIG716 7.62x51 mm assault rifles and AK-203's.

Yea right. Any point i made that is not logically refuteable and which everyone is following is Futile. What else is there to discuss here when this is the approach.
BTW Eastern block adopted the new cartridge back in the days of 70s and 80s their is no eastern block anynore.And current day former eastern block countries dont use 7.62 x 39. Russia dont use 39 anymore they use 5.45 x 39. While Eastern europe moved to 5.56 NATO mostly. Lithuania, Latvia Check, Slovakia, Hungary, Ukarain,belarus, . I domt know what are you trying to say that 7.62 x 39 is in front line service with easter block
And 39 is not a category. 7.62 x 39 and 5.45 x 39 are day and night different. I have experience with both of them. 7.62 x 39 is a Bull. It has so much recoil. Even the much improved AKM variant. While 5.45 x 39 is very low on recoil and light weight.

As for new ammunition. World always moves forward except us. We are stuck in 60s guns .
Good day

 

[Sine Nomine]

Yea right. Any point i made that is not logically refuteable and which everyone is following is Futile. What else is there to discuss here when this is the approach.
BTW Eastern block adopted the new cartridge back in the days of 70s and 80s their is no eastern block anynore.And current day former eastern block countries dont use 7.62 x 39. Russia dont use 39 anymore they use 5.45 x 39. While Eastern europe moved to 5.56 NATO mostly. Lithuania, Latvia Check, Slovakia, Hungary, Ukarain,belarus, . I domt know what are you trying to say that 7.62 x 39 is in front line service with easter block
And 39 is not a category. 7.62 x 39 and 5.45 x 39 are day and night different. I have experience with both of them. 7.62 x 39 is a Bull. It has so much recoil. Even the much improved AKM variant. While 5.45 x 39 is very low on recoil and light weight.

As for new ammunition. World always moves forward except us. We are stuck in 60s guns .
Good day

Whole world is pretty much stuck in 60's,as i said earlier 7.62x39 cal is still widespread Cal in service,if Russian have really given up 7.62x39,than won't have been developing iteration after iteration of AK's in this cal.
Going by your experience with recoil and your earlier points a 9mm or 10mm cal rifle is way better than any 5.56 or 7.62 rifle.There is something known as "utility" which in our case isn't achieved by 5.56,though if we have to go for new cal 6.8 SPC or .300 blk are better options but we should really wait for US decision.
P.S:-India adopted 5.56x45 INSAS replacing 7.62x51 and later supplemented it with 7.62x39 in ops area and in 2020 have went back to 7.62x51NATO and 7.62x39 in front line service.There is indeed a lesson to learn.

 

[Mr.Cringeworth]

The problem is Pakistan Army Persistence with 7.62 x 51 Ammunition. They should switch to 5.56 x 45 and get licensed production of CZ Bren 2 or any other modern assault rifle. All modern firearms are designed around the 5.56 x 45 Cartridge.

We have to look at our operational requirements not at what the world is doing, 7.62 by 51 is here to stay as our standard issue rifle caliber because of its stopping power 223 will be used as well just by SF for special mission requirements.