PIA acquires new Boeing 737-800

[Imran Khan]

they need more ATRs too

 

[[Bregs]]

The bitter truth whatever new aircraft's PIA or Air India acquires these cos will continue to bleed there national govt. till they are privatized

 

[Imran Khan]

The bitter truth whatever new aircraft's PIA or Air India acquires these cos will continue to bleed there national govt. till they are privatized

yaar all of the airlines doing it same air travel will never give you prophit of billions its just public service . but still we both can manage it just increase the aircrafts and kickout fuel sucker old aircrafts situation will be little better . every gov institution has corruption we can't close or private all of them can we?

 

[imiakhtar]

320s on domestic and mid-east.

As I said, a single aisle aircraft does not offer enough capacity for many domestic and mid-east routes (Saudia, Etihad, Qatar, Emirates, Gulf Air and Oman Air use predominantly widebody aircraft to Pakistan). Take a look at this blog by Behramjee. Before you question his credentials and figures, he works as a network planner for a mid-east airline and many of his posts have figures sourced from the sabre/amadeus airline reservation systems:

Behramjee's Airline News: How to restructure PIA

Now according to him, some routes in the mid-east (Jeddah, Riyadh, Dubai) justify widebody capacity. Factor this in, along with the requirement for PIA to transport 50 000+ hajj pilgrims over two weeks, and the movement of hajj into the summer months, it quickly becomes clear that a narrow body fleet dedicated to these routes is not adequate

a recent incident involving a 310 had only about 60 something passengers.

You can't look at a route on a uni directional basis. For all we know, the return flight was full. Besides, passengers only make one slice of the revenue pie. Some routes can be justified solely by the amount of cargo they carry (hello Sialkot). Do you know how much cargo they were carrying?

Profitable you think?

High load factor does not = profitable flight.

British Airways, to the annoyance of the Bengali community in the UK cancelled their Dhaka flight a few years ago despite the flight achieving 90% load factor year round (compared to average sector wide load factor of 78% for British Airways International Ops).

 

[razgriz19]

As I said, a single aisle aircraft does not offer enough capacity for many domestic and mid-east routes (Saudia, Etihad, Qatar, Emirates, Gulf Air and Oman Air use predominantly widebody aircraft to Pakistan). Take a look at this blog by Behramjee. Before you question his credentials and figures, he works as a network planner for a mid-east airline and many of his posts have figures sourced from the sabre/amadeus airline reservation systems:

Behramjee's Airline News: How to restructure PIA

Now according to him, some routes in the mid-east (Jeddah, Riyadh, Dubai) justify widebody capacity. Factor this in, along with the requirement for PIA to transport 50 000+ hajj pilgrims over two weeks, and the movement of hajj into the summer months, it quickly becomes clear that a narrow body fleet dedicated to these routes is not adequate



You can't look at a route on a uni directional basis. For all we know, the return flight was full. Besides, passengers only make one slice of the revenue pie. Some routes can be justified solely by the amount of cargo they carry (hello Sialkot). Do you know how much cargo they were carrying?



High load factor does not = profitable flight.

British Airways, to the annoyance of the Bengali community in the UK cancelled their Dhaka flight a few years ago despite the flight achieving 90% load factor year round (compared to average sector wide load factor of 78% for British Airways International Ops).

okay fair points.
However, we simply cannot afford to have a diverse fleet. And besides 773 will be here in two years to replace 743, and they can be used to haul pilgrims during the two weeks or so.
And trust me most PIA flights do not carry much cargo, specially North american ones. A friend of mine worked at YYZ, he found a suit case filled with just water bottles. Us Pakistanis carry way too much luggage. That's a simple known fact.

btw do you know how much it costs to do type endorsement courses?
A LOT!

PIA doesn't have enough money to send mechanics down at Airbus, or Boeing multiple times to get their endorsement done.

P.S
about the blog - just because it worked for certain airlines doesn't mean it would work for PIA.
Warren Buffet, the greatest investor of all time, has said that air line is the worst possible bussiness, because of its unpredictability.

 

[imiakhtar]

And trust me most PIA flights do not carry much cargo, specially North american ones.

Well that's because they're long range flights where aircraft are operating beyond their max payload range.

Example the 777-300ER has a max-payload range of around 5800nm. The still air distance between Karachi and Toronto is 6313nm. Once you factor is ATS routings, the flying distance will be over 6500nm. Once you take into account 30min holding fuel and the diversion requirements for Montreal (PIA's designated Canada diversion airport), the 8 tons/hr avg fuel burn, you need to offload 15-20 tons of cargo for the flight to land with legal fuel requirements.

A friend of mine worked at YYZ, he found a suit case filled with just water bottles.

Passenger baggage, according to IATA definitions is not considered cargo by airlines.

btw do you know how much it costs to do type endorsement courses?
A LOT!

Given that PIA has just decided in the last few days to lease Airbus A320 aircraft, not a lot. A good quality A320 to A330 cross conversion course will set you back over $10 000 at somewhere like US Airways. It will be a lot cheaper at an acceptable training school ran by Egyptair or Sri Lankan Airways.

PIA doesn't have enough money to send mechanics down at Airbus, or Boeing multiple times to get their endorsement done.

The money is there if the Govt is willing to back it. Do you think Boeing is giving PIA 5 777-300ERs for free?

P.S
about the blog - just because it worked for certain airlines doesn't mean it would work for PIA.
Warren Buffet, the greatest investor of all time, has said that air line is the worst possible bussiness, because of its unpredictability.

Warren Buffet made his money during in the 80s and 90s when global air travel was US and Europe centric. Factor that in with the bloated and inefficient US airlines (American and Delta still fly MD-80s) with their unfunded pension plans and healthcare coverages, meant that US airlines were (and you could argue still are) a bottomless pit with no value for shareholders.

That has rarely been the case on this side of the water and given the profits (and sustainable) of airlines like Emirates, Turkish, Singapore, Cathay etc you could say Buffet has either generalised or as is more likely in my opinion spoken in the context of North American airlines.

 

[razgriz19]

Well that's because they're long range flights where aircraft are operating beyond their max payload range.

Example the 777-300ER has a max-payload range of around 5800nm. The still air distance between Karachi and Toronto is 6313nm. Once you factor is ATS routings, the flying distance will be over 6500nm. Once you take into account 30min holding fuel and the diversion requirements for Montreal (PIA's designated Canada diversion airport), the 8 tons/hr avg fuel burn, you need to offload 15-20 tons of cargo for the flight to land with legal fuel requirements.



Passenger baggage, according to IATA definitions is not considered cargo by airlines.



Given that PIA has just decided in the last few days to lease Airbus A320 aircraft, not a lot. A good quality A320 to A330 cross conversion course will set you back over $10 000 at somewhere like US Airways. It will be a lot cheaper at an acceptable training school ran by Egyptair or Sri Lankan Airways.



The money is there if the Govt is willing to back it. Do you think Boeing is giving PIA 5 777-300ERs for free?



Warren Buffet made his money during in the 80s and 90s when global air travel was US and Europe centric. Factor that in with the bloated and inefficient US airlines (American and Delta still fly MD-80s) with their unfunded pension plans and healthcare coverages, meant that US airlines were (and you could argue still are) a bottomless pit with no value for shareholders.

That has rarely been the case on this side of the water and given the profits (and sustainable) of airlines like Emirates, Turkish, Singapore, Cathay etc you could say Buffet has either generalised or as is more likely in my opinion spoken in the context of North American airlines.

first of all PIA uses 777-200LR which has more than enough range to go islamabad and then karachi.

secondly, i never said passenger baggage is cargo. I gave an example of how much useless crap people carry on PIA flights.

and lastly, there are roughly 300 or so major airlines in the world. More than half of them don't generate enough profit to be called successful. There are literally very few airlines which are doing AT THE MOMENT. But it doesn't take long for an airline to go bust. Pan Am used to be the biggest, the greatest airline in the world, quite like emirates actually, and look what happened to it.

I know a lot of people who worked for MANY airlines that went defunct. They all said the same thing, one it was fine, the next day it was gone.

 

[imiakhtar]

first of all PIA uses 777-200LR which has more than enough range to go islamabad and then karachi.

They don't always use the 77LR. Besides, Karachi-Toronto is the longest non stop in the network.

I gave an example of how much useless crap people carry on PIA flights.

In which case, if you weren't referring to it as cargo, why use it in the context of the discussion?
(ie, see the quote below:

most PIA flights do not carry much cargo, specially North american ones. A friend of mine worked at YYZ, he found a suit case filled with just water bottles.

Pan Am used to be the biggest, the greatest airline in the world, quite like emirates actually, and look what happened to it.

You're comparing apples to mangoes.

Pan Am was operating in a heavily regulated environment where countries were protectionist in order to protect their home carriers.

Those days are long gone, and most countries are happy to negotiate open skies policies or fifth or even sixth freedom rights.

 

[RescueRanger]

You don't need to ask.... if PIA is privatized than no more free rides for politicians and civil servants and their near dears.

^

This!

 

[livingdead]

yaar all of the airlines doing it same air travel will never give you prophit of billions its just public service . but still we both can manage it just increase the aircrafts and kickout fuel sucker old aircrafts situation will be little better . every gov institution has corruption we can't close or private all of them can we?

do you really need a govt run bus service.. especially if private companies can give much better comfort?
Rail I can understand due to their strategic nature but what has govt got to do with running an airline.

 

[MarkusS]

A380 cost $400m a piece, where is PIA going to get that money plus PIA doesnt have the passenger numbers to fill that plane. Only Airline currently buying them is Emirates, everyone is going after the 787 even though it has major issues

that is wrong. since i work for EADS i can tell you that we sell much more A350 and A380 than Boeing. Boeing is collapsing. They even lost the japanese market.

 

[imiakhtar]

And trust me most PIA flights do not carry much cargo, specially North american ones.

And just to disprove this point that PIA don't carry much cargo, as you said, especially to North America, here is a real world flight plan used this past May on an Islamabad-Toronto flight (courtesy of a family relation in PIA). As you can see, the flight is only 5 tons short of the max zero fuel weight which means in addition to the full pax load, it is carrying around 20tons of cargo. I have blanked out any details which could identify the operating crew:

 

[imiakhtar]

Boeing is collapsing.

I find it hard to believe you work for EADS when you come out with that remark. Even your bosses (Tom Enders, John Leahy - do the names ring a bell?) don't think Boeing is going to collapse and both have said recently that they do not think either aircraft OEM will go beyond 55% market share.

In other words, Airbus or Boeing alone can not satisfy the demand there is out there for new aircraft.

 

[MarkusS]

I find it hard to believe you work for EADS when you come out with that remark. Even your bosses (Tom Enders, John Leahy - do the names ring a bell?) don't think Boeing is going to collapse and both have said recently that they do not think either aircraft OEM will go beyond 55% market share.

In other words, Airbus or Boeing alone can not satisfy the demand there is out there for new aircraft.

what you believe is irrelevant for me. we just even conquered Japan, a market that was completly dominated from Boeing for decades. The 787 is a desaster for Boeing. We call it...the screamliner. They have issues on that plane that are horrendous. Of course boeing will not collapse as a company but their market took some big hits recently. i would not sit into a 787...

 

[imiakhtar]

we just even conquered Japan

Come back to me once you've flogged some A350s to All Nippon.

The 787 is a desaster for Boeing.

It's been hugely delayed into service - so was the airbus a380

It was over weight when it entered service - so was the airbus A380

It's had a troubled start in airliner service (battery fires, GenX icing issues) - so did the A380 (wing cracks, uncontained engine failure)

There has been issues in ramping up 787 production - as is the case for the A380 (struggling to get higher than 30/year due to the ridiculous Germans unwilling to shift the cabin outfitting from Hamburg)

the 787 won't start making money for boeing until 2015 - similar case with the a380

Lastly and most importantly however, the 787 at last count had an order book of around a 1000 aircraft. The airlines still want it with it achieving 100+ orders this year

The A380 has just reached 300 orders with 50 orders this year (thank you emirates).

We call it...the screamliner.

You call it the 'screamliner'. Few others do.

but their market took some big hits recently

I suppose the recent Dubai airshow where Boeing sold more 777Xs in a few days than airbus has sold a350s in a yr went right over your head.