Philippines 'withdraws warship' amid China stand-off

[no_name]

In a way I think Philippines have no choice. The ruling government in P has to do a balancing act. We all know what happens to countries when they don't listen to a great power. (regime change) This is the sad reality of small powers.

In a way P cannot afford to listen to China now. You see US supports some countries with questionable human rights and democracy index (and p is actually quite bad in this regard), as long as those countries serves US interest. But when said countries no longer served US interests, the human right issues comes out, and internal subversion and sometimes outright military interference comes out, all the while masking this as some sort of betterment for the local people, when the local people don't have any say throughout the whole process. The media then spin it as another great victory for the US global police.


Do you want to know why countries always go against China when it comes to problems with US? It is exactly because US is willing to be a bully whereas China has so far pledged non-interference in other countries' affairs.

To the people in power in p, the'd rather lose economic interest or even military punishment by China, rather than a regime change by the US where they'd lose everything. Which is why you see vietnam grooving up to US when they had a war with China fresh in the 70s. I'm cynically wondering whether China's non-interference policy is the root of all foreign policy problems plaguing china right now. And whether true non-intereference in smaller countries is possible for any global power, no matter how benign they tries to be.

In a way be can't blame Chinese leaders of the past because in the past China does not have enough soft and hard power (and even now it is still lacking).

Something for the new leaders in China to think about. But I'm telling you, politics everywhere is the same, and no country is an exception.

 

[terranMarine]

@NiceGuy

You keep talking about how chinese troops left laoshan mt in 1992. Why can't i find it on the internet that it exists in Vietnam? If it really exists then it should be documented and checked by all people (historians) from around the world and put it online. All you do is put some info copied from a forum that mentioned laoshan mt.

Proof it exists, show some links with photos of this so called mount laoshan in Vietnam. Why not ask other members from other countries if they can even find mount laoshan on google.

 

[Rechoice]

名将粟裕之子粟戎生67军对越作战中5.31惨败之谜"

You can read in Chinese here.

http://http://www.360doc.com/content/10/0310/18/624320_18264175.shtml

老山前线那拉口子战区211高地是1军在1985年2月11号拔点夺下的阵地，67军1985年
5月18日与1军换防后，接守了这个阵地。13天后，1985年5月31日凌晨5点10分，越军第二
军区对立足未稳的67军突然发动“M－1”进攻战斗，对老山战场全线猛烈炮击。密集的炮火
准备持续了45分钟。
5点55分，越军炮火延伸，越军982团4营兵分两路对211、156、166三个高地实施攻击
，同时越军982团5营在140、 142高地实施佯攻。越军在猛烈准确的炮火掩护下以优势的兵
员迅速领了211高地的1、2号哨位，在上面坚守的一个班的士兵大部分阵亡；1号哨位的战
士李林海被越军俘虏，这是两山轮战中国军队唯一被俘的军人；班长鲍虎民放弃阵地跳崖后
在草丛中潜伏7天后溜回了友邻阵地。越军随后在炮火掩护下多次对140、156、166高地再
次发起冲击，直到夜晚9：30分，越军停止进攻。211高地并不大，与越军驻守的227高地
接连，整个211上面就仅仅布置三个哨位，换言之，越军成功占领了211高地。
当天67军在对昆明军区与总参汇报中说211高地仍在控制中。但时任总参作战部长的隗
福临中将表示要亲自去老山检查工作，要67军从211高地叫个战士下来谈话。
67军没办法了，于是下令不惜一切代价夺回211高地的1、2号哨位。
当时的199师师长郑广臣少将(后在山东省军区副司令员位置上退&#20241反对冒险出击，认
为部队刚接手阵地，对战场情况、地形、敌情都不太熟悉，应该让部队有一个熟悉的过程。
郑广臣说，首战非常重要，不打则已，打则应该必胜，应该在有把握的基础上进行首战。郑
广臣的意见非但没有采纳，反而还被67军参谋长粟戎生指责为“畏战”、“动摇”。粟戎生到军
长面前告了师长的状。军长一气之下，解除了郑广臣的指挥权，让粟戎生越过199师师机关
，直接带军部机关组织199师595团进行反击。
还有个题外话，粟戎生本来是新提拔才一年的200师师长，战前靠疏通高层就火线提拔
当上了67军的参谋长，他的镀金之旅也成了199师官兵的悲情之旅。67军惨败后粟戎生在军
参谋长位置上了窝了五年，1990年被平调总参军务部副部长赋闲

“杨家将”倒台后楚青托粟裕大将的老下级军委张副主席，把粟戎生提拔到他父亲的老部
队24军任军长。1997年11月又被提拔为北京军区副司令员(主管后勤、机关、内务、外事活
&#21160。1999年当了十一年少将后晋升中将军衔。据说“粟戎生同志在工作中结合部队建设和作
战训练实际，积极开展科学研究，曾获国家科技进步二等奖、军队科技进步一等奖等多项奖
励，并获得国家专利技术１０余项。粟戎生同志还是国防大学兼职教授、全军指挥自动化建
设专家委员会成员。”
1985年6月1日，67军由粟戎生组织595团1营在255高地集结伺机向211高地进行反冲
击，副营长王朝栋负责一线指挥。凌晨，在倾盆大雨的掩护下第一突击队在的带领下向211
出击，与此同时，在一连二排长王忠远带领下的第二突击队从908高地上向 211高地出击。
为避免过大的伤亡，采用“添油战术”按照先共产党员、班长、共青团员的顺序先后组成战斗
小组分别出击，二个突击队通过一片凹地直扑向 211高地的1、2号哨位。与此同时，211高
地上的越军发现我军的突击队，于是战斗在一瞬间就打响了。居高临下的越军立即向我投弹
扫射，密集的子弹象倾盆大雨瞬间而至，同时呼唤炮火对我冲击路段进行火力封锁，我方的
炮火也向211高地作压制性炮击。
在255、 211高地上面，双方的炮火打成一团，弹雨横飞。在这段泥泞的冲击路上，有
两个副班长先后被击中当场牺牲，在211山脚下的一块5米高的大石下，10余名突击队员牺
牲在那里，鲜血与雨水混杂在一片泥泞中，逐渐僵硬的尸体任凭雨水的冲刷。这块大石与我
军固守的211高地3号哨位仅15米，剩余的突击队重整后从3号哨位向1、2号哨位出击。在2
11高地和越军227阵地的接合部，双方又打成一团。在一轮惨烈的战斗后，1、2号哨位相继
被收复，在227上面的越军立即进行了增援。随即，刚占领211高地1、2号哨的我突击队就
被越军包围。在力量悬殊的情况下，突击分队被压了下来。
幸存的8名突击队员退到3号哨位，8个人中还有5名伤员。越军的炮火极为猛烈，从255
通往211的道路被完全封锁，增援部队上不去，上面的8名突击队员也下不来，在211高地3
号阵地硬挺的几天后，5名突击队伤员先后死去。在其后的战斗中，越军在1号哨位前的一
块大石头上吊起我方阵亡军人的尸体示威。事后查明，被吊起的阵亡者为595团1连的副连
长贾柯。越军的行动激起了我方指挥员的怒火！于是，前一批突击队倒下了，后一批突击队
接着上，反反复复67军前指要部队不惜一切代价地向211高地冲击
在861 电台里，不断听到我方突击队呼喊占领了1号、2号哨位，但其后这些冲上去的
突击队大部分不是牺牲就是身负重伤。这时候，双方的炮火都覆盖到255、211 高地上，伴
随着炮弹的撕裂声是我冲出去的突击队一批接着一批地倒下，炮火实在太猛烈了，而211高
地上的越军也占有居高临下的有利地形，许多发起冲击的突击队没有办法接近211高地就在
满天弹雨中倒下，3连组织3个突击队向上冲，到次日下来，只剩下2个人。为保证在总参作
战部隗福临部长到来前夺下211高地，直到最后时刻，前来增援的部队中595团三位副营长
在67军参谋长“不惜一切代价收复211高地，三位副总理在中南海等待我们胜利的消息”的命
令下带着最后的通讯员冲上山顶……
从6.2到6.11，十天的战斗中双方的炮火太猛烈了，我方的突击队员根本没有办法接近2
11高地，而前指的指挥员还要持续地派突击队上。在根本就不可能夺回211高地的情况下，
67军还是投入了大量的兵员和弹药对211进行不惜任何代价的反复争夺。战斗中,由于越军
猛烈炮火的封锁,我方阵亡人员尸体无法抢回,尸横遍野的情景极为凄惨。67军前指下达死命
令,不惜任何代价也要把烈士的遗体抢回来，为此199师还进行了几次掩护性的攻击。在11
天的战斗中，67军199师595团损失惨重：2个营被越军打垮，团连建制完全被打乱，为了
增援595团，作为师预备队的597团3连也在毫无胜利希望的冲击中损失惨重。120多名突击
队员将生命永远留在了211高地上，轻重伤员不计其数，在211高地附近的大小数百个山洞
石隙中到处都有我方突击队的伤员，只是当时我方并不知道他们还在坚持还在等着我们的医
生去抢救。这次战斗后能自己撤回出发阵地的突击队员不到十分之一……
整个595团已经丧失了战斗能力，无法再执行作战任务，被调离前线休整。为接替595
团，济南军区在山东紧急组建了598团（三个营分别来自598团、599团、600团、团属炮兵
连来自76师）接替595团。
从地形上看，211高地没有任何军事价值，但因为211高地是67军从1军手中接过来的
，67军首长就认为不能丢失，将大量的有生力量一次又一次地送入越军的炮火中，6.11之
所以惨败人为的因素是主要的。67军199师595团在211高地失利的消息传出后，全国全军
一片哗然！然而对那次战斗中阵亡的595团人员来说,遗憾不仅如此,在这些在身前已经为国
尽忠的官兵中,大部分人身后却并未得到相应的荣誉。在济南军区轮战部队近百位被授予一
二级英模和荣立一等功的烈士名单中,除了贾柯外,鲜见在6.11战斗中阵亡的595团官兵名字

199 师全师上下对67军军首长极其愤怒，一大批干部战士联名告状，告到军委总部，指责
军参谋长不听部队的意见，纸上谈兵，造成部队首战的严重失利。总部先后派总参军训部长
石侠等人前往调查。调查后肯定了并非199师领导惧战，而是当时军首长不能正确的判断敌
情我情，越级指挥，失利后又把责任推给师里是不对的，对67军提出了严厉批评。粟也觉
得自己很没面子，带着军机关的人撤回了军部。199师师长郑广臣恢复了指挥权，以后的战
斗就由199师师部组织指挥了。
郑广臣组织199师开始熟悉战场、熟悉当面越军战斗特点，整理部队，开展针对性训练
。一直到三个月后的9月8日，199师侦察连副连长原明、副指导员贺光明带领17个人组成的
突击队发起白昼奇袭，于上午十点沿3号哨位左上方一段悬崖下爬上越军占领的2号哨位，
以两人轻伤的代价全歼211高地7名越军。其后越军报复性炮击,造成副连长原明左眼受伤失
明，突击队两名班长受伤后在送往救护所的途中牺牲。
67军因为5.31惨败还搞出一个十年对越战争绝无仅有的事来。一个在211高地幸存下来
的枣庄籍战士，早饭时进入军指挥所的饭堂向粟戎生开枪。粟躲得快藏在了餐桌下面，没有
受伤。粟的警卫员却被打死了，67军军长张志坚肩胛骨贯通伤，当场还打伤10 多名官兵。
整个场面大乱，都以为是越南方面的特工队摸上来了钻进前指偷袭，几天后都没有搞清
楚是怎么回事。而这名战士从现场全身而退，几天后才在军指挥所后面的水窖里发现了他自
杀了，还抱着冲锋枪，由于时间长人已经炮得发了，很臭很臭。67军又一次被全军通报。
事发后中央军委、公安部、国家安全部以及济南军区纷纷派要员来67军前指调查事故
原因，张志坚在医院接受调查时哭着说：我没有想到自己的战士会拿枪打自己的军长！

 

[oct605032048]

Haha Gen.Liang was a hero in the VN skirmish. And he is having fun in the US now.

 

[NiceGuy]

@NiceGuy

You keep talking about how chinese troops left laoshan mt in 1992. Why can't i find it on the internet that it exists in Vietnam? If it really exists then it should be documented and checked by all people (historians) from around the world and put it online. All you do is put some info copied from a forum that mentioned laoshan mt.

Proof it exists, show some links with photos of this so called mount laoshan in Vietnam. Why not ask other members from other countries if they can even find mount laoshan on google.

we call it "Núi Lão Sơn" , google and you can find thousand pics.

Tuy nhiên theo đa số mọi người thì nguyên nhân chính là từ việc tranh chấp đỉnh núi Lão Sơn

Ngọn núi Lão Sơn có hình dạng của một chữ "U" nằm gần biên giới giữa Trung Quốc và Việt Nam
M

 

[Saithan]

When I look at the territorial claim here BBC News - Protest in Philippines over South China Sea stand-off, it seems quite unreasonable to claim such big area, especially claiming miles that are within the economic zone (200 miles of a countries coast).

Personnally I think Philippines should invite american oil companies to drill after oil give the US 80% of the profit and keep the remaining 20% themselves (maybe even better deal for the US), with such clear economic benefits to the US I'd be very difficult for China to act the way they do.

I mean look at that red line, it's pretty clear that China is provoking the countries in the region, and they're only doing that because they've begun to grow muscles. They're not extending their claim a bit, but a lot.

 

[SinoChallenger]

When I look at the territorial claim here BBC News - Protest in Philippines over South China Sea stand-off, it seems quite unreasonable to claim such big area, especially claiming miles that are within the economic zone (200 miles of a countries coast).

Personnally I think Philippines should invite american oil companies to drill after oil give the US 80% of the profit and keep the remaining 20% themselves (maybe even better deal for the US), with such clear economic benefits to the US I'd be very difficult for China to act the way they do.

I mean look at that red line, it's pretty clear that China is provoking the countries in the region, and they're only doing that because they've begun to grow muscles. They're not extending their claim a bit, but a lot.

We are provoking countries in the region because we have 3000+ nuclear weapons. If anybody wants to challenge that, they get vaporized, and then we take all their territory!

 

[Beast]

When I look at the territorial claim here BBC News - Protest in Philippines over South China Sea stand-off, it seems quite unreasonable to claim such big area, especially claiming miles that are within the economic zone (200 miles of a countries coast).

Personnally I think Philippines should invite american oil companies to drill after oil give the US 80% of the profit and keep the remaining 20% themselves (maybe even better deal for the US), with such clear economic benefits to the US I'd be very difficult for China to act the way they do.

I mean look at that red line, it's pretty clear that China is provoking the countries in the region, and they're only doing that because they've begun to grow muscles. They're not extending their claim a bit, but a lot.

You forget USA wants China cooperation in Iran issue... USA start to drill South China Sea and USA and Israel can kiss goodbye for trying to contain Iran..

Now you know even until now no USA company is involved... You think China has no leverage on this issue?

 

[NiceGuy]

You forget USA wants China cooperation in Iran issue... USA start to drill South China Sea and USA and Israel can kiss goodbye for trying to contain Iran..

Now you know even until now no USA company is involved... You think China has no leverage on this issue?

Then, Phil should invite Russia, and Russia will give China a hard slap if you dare to mess up with her

 

[Beast]

Then, Phil should invite Russia, and Russia will give China a hard slap if you dare to mess up with her

What can Philippine offer to Russia? More Maids?

I didn't know you are interested in Philippine incident? Didn't you realise Philippine coastguard after fail to arrest Chinese fishermen decide to arrest some vietnamese fishermen to vent anger...

I doubt you are a vietnamese if you really side flippino...

 

[NiceGuy]

What can Philippine offer to Russia? More Maids?

I didn't know you are interested in Philippine incident? Didn't you realise Philippine coastguard after fail to arrest Chinese fishermen decide to arrest some vietnamese fishermen to vent anger...

I doubt you are a vietnamese if you really side flippino...

Phil has huge potential oil field , and Russia is always interested in oil

just like VN, Phil is one of ASEAN nations, do you know that ?? and she's against China's agression too, that's why all VNese support Phil.

I support Myanmar when she slap on China's face too

 

[Beast]

Phil has huge potential oil field , and Russia is always interested in oil

just like VN, Phil is one of ASEAN nations, do you know that ?? and she's against China's agression too, that's why all VNese support Phil.

Yup! Support more philipine coastguard arrest yr fishermen.

Russia don't need oil.. It needs cash. Oil?? Russia has plenty of it. It needs a buyer like China. we Ask Russia to be the Trojan horse. Sell you all the junk then when war happen, we can jammed all your system. Your government betray all your vietnamese by using hard earn cash to buy Russia stuff which is jam easily. Now we got all the codes of yr system

Twelve Vietnamese fishermen were apprehended for illegal poaching in Pangutaran Island in Sulu, a report reaching the headquarters of Philippine Coast Guard (PCG) today.



Coast Guard Spokesperson Lcdr. Algier Ricafrente said, the Vietnamese, who are onboard their Malaysian-flagged fishing boat, were arrested by PCG and Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources (BFAR) operatives at vicinity 43 kilometers off Pangutaran town in Jolo, Sulu for fishing endangered marine turtles, black corals and reef fishes.



Ricafrente added the joint operations, which was led by MCS-3009 Skipper PCG LT. Ludovico Libirra Jr, was conducting a search and rescue operation on passenger vessel M/L Windolyn which was reported to encounter engine trouble and is said to have drifted away in the area last April 12, when they sighted the four Malaysian fishing boats heading to Malaysia.



Found inside the boat are 50 pieces of dead marine turtles locally known as “pawikan” and five bundles of black corals concealed inside the refrigerated fish storage in violation of Republic Act (RA) 8550, otherwise known as the Philippine Fisheries Code of 1998, prohibits poaching or the catching and taking of fish and other aquatic products by foreign fishing vessels in the Philippine waters.



As of press time, the fishermen are in the custody of BFAR while administrative and criminal cases are being prepared against them.

12 VIETNAMESE HELD FOR POACHING IN SULU

Actually they are well within your claim area. They arrest your fishermen? What is your navy doing?? I thought your navy has plenty of guts?

 

[NiceGuy]

Yup! Support more philipine coastguard arrest yr fishermen.

Russia don't need oil.. It needs cash. Oil?? Russia has plenty of it. It needs a buyer like China. we Ask Russia to be the Trojan horse. Sell you all the junk then when war happen, we can jammed all your system. Your government betray all your vietnamese by using hard earn cash to buy Russia stuff which is jam easily. Now we got all the codes of yr system

Heheh, poor Chinese, keep dreaming , just like how Russia slap on China's face when joining with VN in SCS(east sea), Russia will slap on China's face again if Phil offer her some oil field

12 VIETNAMESE HELD FOR POACHING IN SULU

Actually they are well within your claim area. They arrest your fishermen? What is your navy doing?? I thought your navy has plenty of guts?

We only wanna fight with China, we simply don't care if Phil arrest our men or not

China releases 21 Vietnamese fishermen after month
AP foreign, Saturday April 21 2012
BEIJING (AP) — China says authorities have released 21 Vietnamese fishermen whom they had detained for more than a month on a disputed island in the South China Sea.

The official Xinhua News Agency said late Friday that according to the South China Sea Fishery Bureau, the fishermen were released after they guaranteed in writing not to "infringe on China's maritime rights, especially fishing, in its territorial waters."

Chinese security forces intercepted the fishermen's two boats in early March near the Paracel islands, known in China as the Xisha Islands.

The Paracels are occupied by China but also claimed by Vietnam.

Vietnam had said the arrests of the fishermen violated Vietnam's sovereignty over the island chain and demanded their releasehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10205868

China dare not demand ransom after arresting our men now

 

[shuttler]

We should move to take back as many islands / shoals as we can now. How many war ships does the Pinoys have other than the 1 (+1) 2nd hand american ships? Move to Zhong Ye Island and evacuate the Pinoy fishermen there!

 

[Beast]

Heheh, poor Chinese, keep dreaming , just like how Russia slap on China's face when joining with VN in SCS(east sea), Russia will slap on China's face again if Phil offer her some oil field

Maybe in yr dream Russia really needs to slap you hard to wake up from yr dream.

Welcome to the real world