Philippines' 5 arguments vs China over China's 9 dash line

[Jughead]

South China Sea has become a hot button issue and in my view will have immense bearing on how geo-politics/balance of power will shape out in the next few years. I honestly believe the issue is best resolved by countries in the region talking to each other; proxies (US, EU, Japan, Others) should butt out. Any UNCLOS decision will only exacerbate the situation.

And for folks who harp about "China's refusal to accept UNCLOS' jurisdiction"....its not as-if US/Russia/EU have been Boy Scouts in the past. China today has the muscle to stand up to bullies

However, I do have a request for my Chinese friends - Bring your views/arguments to this topic but please leave the foul-mouthed abuses at the door. Some of you have made it your life's mission to insult all-and-sundry on this forum. Just saying.....

 

[rcrmj]

South China Sea has become a hot button issue and in my view will have immense bearing on how geo-politics/balance of power will shape out in the next few years. I honestly believe the issue is best resolved by countries in the region talking to each other; proxies (US, EU, Japan, Others) should butt out. Any UNCLOS decision will only exacerbate the situation.

And for folks who harp about "China's refusal to accept UNCLOS' jurisdiction"....its not as-if US/Russia/EU have been Boy Scouts in the past. China today has the muscle to stand up to bullies

However, I do have a request for my Chinese friends - Bring your views/arguments to this topic but please leave the foul-mouthed abuses at the door. Some of you have made it your life's mission to insult all-and-sundry on this forum. Just saying.....

every action will cause reaction, they deserve every bit of of harshness we fired at them on this forum````as for too long we'd been too nice and push over, it really disgusts us everytime they lash out blind causation and hatred towards Chinese and China...facts mean nothing before them,

actually PDF's general view is a smaller scale of world general stereotype towards China, which infested with western propaganda and un-called alegation against China····If you had time, just browse the very first threads on PDF since its creation around 2007, every single Chinese members joined here with peace and meaning to have fun.. but they either left or lost manner to those disgusting people that forum did not look after

you know the worst China bashers here are 'professional' and 'thinktank'`````isnt that ironic?

so think it hard friend, why those nice and humble Chinese are so 'foul' over here or on any other english forums?

 

[Nilgiri]

Good job @jerry_tan , your posts are informative.

Also good to see you are not degrading yourself to the level of some others here.

 

[xunzi]

Since it is International law why not face the Philippines in Hague and prove your claimed, China knew that they will lose mo need to exert any efforts.

Because we are under obligation by DOC and the UNCLOS itself to first utilize bilateral negotiation mechanism.

We have evidence of your history an ancient map from China , SCS is not part of your map. Furthermore history is not acceptable in modern treaties.

All maps can be changed periodically and ancient maps tend to focus on mainland territory. All international laws are based on international treaty, especially after WWII and history is a big part of crafting treaty and law in the first place.

You don't have any Island near Philippines EEZ therefore no overlapping EEZ.

Yes we do own a few properties and its adjacent water should be respect because that is what international laws grants us when we signed UNCLOS.

Most Chinese poachers caught with endangered sea turtles and illegal harvesting or destroying of corals.

We love China too, so happened that your communist government is a bully , arrogant and support thievery.

That accusation is baseless and if we do catch poachers or the Pinoy pirate, it will be punish according to national laws.

 

[TaiShang]

If (and when) I bash China - I am bashing CCP. Coz I cant digest the fact that a country so great and an fast emerging power can be allowed to run (read: be controlled) without any direct control of the citizens.

Same goes with my critical view of India. I just admire India that has already become a superpower yet I can't help feeling intellectually unhappy because it is run by a bunch of demagogue who do not represent the hundreds of millions wretched, uneducated, under-nourished and illiterate people who deserve a much representative, efficient, free of corruption and humane government.

You may not agree with me, perhaps get offended with me too, but it is my view, not India's (and its every citizen's). Bash me, not my country.

But, saying the above, I do not bash your country, but the corrupt, inefficient government. I do sympathize with the millions of unnourished children, women who are raped or tortured, families living in horrible conditions without basic necessities and hygiene.

I look comparatively at the Chinese and Indian governments, and see from which base they started their national development in the 60s. I see that, in fact, being a colony, India had an edge back in the days.

Then, I say, it must be the corrupt Indian government that held Indians back whereas Chinese government, the most efficient and scientific government ever composed in history, did world's most striking development achievement.

This reinforces my admiration of China's government (although, as a citizen of Greater China, I do believe China has yet to reach 25% of its potential, so lots of thing to do) while my indignation of the corrupt, unrepresentative and inefficient Indian government (not the Indian people) grows.

 

[Nilgiri]

Then, I say, it must be the corrupt Indian government that held Indians back whereas Chinese government, the most efficient and scientific government ever composed in history, did world's most striking development achievement.

This reinforces my admiration of China's government (although, as a citizen of Greater China, I do not believe China has yet to reach 25% of its potential, so lots of thing to do) while my indignation of the corrupt, unrepresentative and inefficient Indian government (not the Indian people) grows.

As bad as the Indian govt has been....it did not starve millions of its people on purpose while exporting the little grain it made to hide this starvation.

http://www.socialistvoice.ca/?p=383

You call this the most scientific government ever composed?

The Chinese govt was forced to abandon its scientific attempt of implementing leftist ideology and allow the free market to operate gradually since the late 70s. Thats the only reason China escaped total destitution and same goes for India which did so in 1991.

If you want to credit the Chinese govt with all the success China has achieved....why not blame it too for all the miserable utter failure (on scales never seen in India)? Why be so hypocritical?

Plus why should your indignation of the Indian govt grow? Have you even looked at any of the achievements of the current administration?

Anyway enjoy the way your "scientific" govt handles the NPA bubble that it is so squeamish about fully revealing. We will see if there is any "scientific" way it can handle the massive debt it has pumped into its economy like a steroid over the last few years. Or maybe it will "scientifically" gamble to ignore this crisis altogether and "scientifically" hope it solves itself over time.

@Hamartia Antidote

 

[TaiShang]

As bad as the Indian govt has been....it did not starve millions of its people on purpose while exporting the little grain it made to hide this starvation.

http://www.socialistvoice.ca/?p=383

You call this the most scientific government ever composed?

The Chinese govt was forced to abandon its scientific attempt of implementing leftist ideology and allow the free market to operate gradually since the late 70s. Thats the only reason China escaped total destitution and same goes for India which did so in 1991.

If you want to credit the Chinese govt with all the success China has achieved....why not blame it too for all the miserable utter failure (on scales never seen in India)? Why be so hypocritical?

Plus why should your indignation of the Indian govt grow? Have you even looked at any of the achievements of the current administration?

Anyway enjoy the way your "scientific" govt handles the NPA bubble that it is so squeamish about fully revealing. We will see if there is any "scientific" way it can handle the massive debt it has pumped into its economy like a steroid over the last few years. Or maybe it will "scientifically" gamble to ignore this crisis altogether and "scientifically" hope it solves itself over time.

China takes the accomplishments and failures as they are. That's why mistakes are made, learned from and progress is ensured.

This is a quite different experience than the Indians have had with their government that is known for inefficiency and lack of progress that has been sticky so far. That's an indication of unscientific mind that not only lack progress, but also hinders progress. The result is India as it is today as one of the biggest failures among modern nation states.

That's why it has been academically called scientific socialism; which innovatively merges market, state and the civilization traits of the culture together to ensure maximum progress at minimum cost.

In the end, you keep your system, China keeps its. History does not fool or play fool. As a leftist, I am a believer of dialectic. The best will prevail as it has been so far.

 

[Nilgiri]

This is a quite different experience than the Indians have had with their government that is known for inefficiency and lack of progress.

Um have you looked at the Indian govt today? They have identified what previous administrations have done wrong and are rectifying the mistakes over time....through a merit based dynamic with a strong focus on free market ideology.

They will only continue to improve with time....and the democratic system in place in India has many large long term positives that will fuel this improvement further.

You just need to sit back and watch the NPA crisis in China unfold over the next few years from the impressive debt spree China indulged in over the last few years (esp relative to its per capita and productivity levels as opposed to when Korea and Japan did theirs). This is a huge glaring error the Chinese govt did (in order to keep achieving a certain growth rate they had in their heads as being the minimum required rather than letting market economics organically adjust and propel the economy more sustainably). Its repercussions will be quite significant, we are only seeing the start of it now. At the end of it (if it ever ends), you can tell me if you still believe "leftist" govt-based ideology and if the Chinese govt was so "scientific" like you thought.

The thing with Science is it has to be completely devoid of bias and stay completely rooted to the evidence. The evidence is the free market works, state intervention does not (in the macroeconomic level). Yet the Chinese govt needs a major role in its economy to uphold its political power base...and sells this as for the common good of its people (and hopes the people do not remember just how that very same excuse was used in the Great Leap Forward). But you need only watch the next few years to see how this pans out. Its not going to be pretty.

But in the meantime feel free to gloat, indulge in your overconfidence and shut your eyes to the looming precipice China finds itself on. It will make the fall all the more shocking for you.

 

[TaiShang]

Um have you looked at the Indian govt today? They have identified what previous administrations have done wrong and are rectifying the mistakes over time....through a merit based dynamic with a strong focus on free market ideology.

They will only continue to improve with time....and the democratic system in place in India has many large long term positives that will fuel this improvement further.

You just need to sit back and watch the NPA crisis in China unfold over the next few years from the impressive debt spree China indulged in over the last few years (esp relative to its per capita and productivity levels as opposed to when Korea and Japan did theirs). This is a huge glaring error the Chinese govt did (in order to keep achieving a certain growth rate they had in their heads as being the minimum required rather than letting market economics organically adjust and propel the economy more sustainably). Its repercussions will be quite significant, we are only seeing the start of it now. At the end of it (if it ever ends), you can tell me if you still believe "leftist" govt-based ideology and if the Chinese govt was so "scientific" like you thought.

The thing with Science is it has to be completely devoid of bias and stay completely rooted to the evidence. The evidence is the free market works, state intervention does not (in the macroeconomic level). Yet the Chinese govt needs a major role in its economy to uphold its political power base...and sells this as for the common good of its people (and hopes the people do not remember just how that very same excuse was used in the Great Leap Forward). But you need only watch the next few years to see how this pans out. Its not going to be pretty.

But in the meantime feel free to gloat, indulge in your overconfidence and shut your eyes to the looming precipice China finds itself on. It will make the fall all the more shocking for you.

Your confidence is noteworthy. Stay with free market economics in which everybody is free but some are freer.

China will continue to adjust and upgrade the East Asian state-led growth and development model based on scientific governance and long term economic planning. The target is to achieve a moderately prosperous society by 2020.

 

[Nilgiri]

Your confidence is noteworthy. Stay with free market economics in which everybody is free but some are freer.

China will continue to adjust and upgrade the East Asian state-led growth and development model based on scientific governance and long term economic growth. The target is to achieve a moderately prosperous society by 2020.

Good. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[ahojunk]

I am bashing CCP. Coz I cant digest the fact that a country so great and an fast emerging power can be allowed to run (read: be controlled) without any direct control of the citizens. I hate misuse of power, and CCP is the extreme case of license to use power as and when (and in whichever way) they want.

.
I used to think that Chinese citizens don't have any participation in their government, I was wrong. Just that their feedback mechanism to their government is different.

The current Chinese government has a very high approval rating by its citizens, otherwise for such a big country like China they wouldn't last too long if it don't have the "mandate of heaven."

whereas Chinese government, the most efficient and scientific government ever composed in history, did world's most striking development achievement.

This reinforces my admiration of China's government (although, as a citizen of Greater China, I do believe China has yet to reach 25% of its potential, so lots of thing to do) while my indignation of the corrupt, unrepresentative and inefficient Indian government (not the Indian people) grows.

.
I agree with you, @TaiShang

I stumbled on this TED talk video on China's political system and in 20 minutes, you will get quite a good understanding of the Chinese system of government, which is the modern updated version of its centuries old "imperial system".

China's current government is not communist. They are more capitalistic than any other capitalist country. The CCP is just communist in name only, don't be misled.

Just like in Australia, the Labor Party is no more "labour" while the so-called "Liberals" are more conservative than any other political parties.

Eric X. Li: A tale of two political systems
Published on 1 Jul 2013
It's a standard assumption in the West: As a society progresses, it eventually becomes a capitalist, multi-party democracy. Right? Eric X. Li, a Chinese investor and political scientist, begs to differ. In this provocative, boundary-pushing talk, he asks his audience to consider that there's more than one way to run a succesful modern nation.


========

This one has Chinese & English subtitles.

Eric X. Li - A Tale of Two Political Systems (with Chinese subtitles)
李世默:兩種制度的傳說 Eric X. Li: A Tale of Two Political Systems

 

[TaiShang]

China's current government is not communist. They are more capitalistic than any other capitalist country. The CCP is just communist in name only, don't be misled.

You know terms and concepts are used for the purpose of simplicity. Otherwise, I would call China's system as one of progress and evolution. But, in its essence, the system is informed by Marxist-Socialist values of emancipation. However, as time evolves, so does the system; China is the least rigid model in the world, given the size and speed of change Chinese society and public domain have gone through over the past seven decades.

That makes the difference between China's success and India's failure in terms of hard development data.

What distinguishes China today is still its adaptability and long term thinking. This is not to be complacent or have overconfidence; but as a person from the Greater China, I am/we are in the position to judge what has been accomplished, at what cost and what needs to be accomplished further.

 

[S10]

I have brought my case for arbitration to the International Court of My House, where my niece is the presiding judge. She said Philippines must pay me $500 million USD for their stupidity. She has about as much power to enforce her sentence as the kangaroo tribunal Philippines is pinning its hopes on.

 

[rcrmj]

If you think by retaliating, you can change the mind of china bashers, you are dsillusioned. This is just an online forum. People come here in their spare time, indulge in some war games through words, log out and go home without even thinking a zilch about what was being said/discussed here. this is just a fake "ego-massage" centre.

Enjoy

we love to bash China bashers on line````at end the day as you said its a forum

As bad as the Indian govt has been....it did not starve millions of its people on purpose while exporting the little grain it made to hide this starvation.

@Hamartia Antidote

yes it does, they spend billions on useless arms to fulfill its deluded ego, while having the world's largest starving and slavery population```

for the times had been to India doing business with the suppliers in the past, you can never comprehend we are living in 21 century``the whole country seems to have too many appalling, yet simplistic, conditions and problems that the government can deal with ease```nonetheless, the local high caste lords and the puppet GOI are doing nothing but keeping injecting nonsensical stuff from media to make the mess uneducated public extremely deluded and ignorant.

 

[Nilgiri]

yes it does, they spend billions on useless arms to fulfill its deluded ego, while having the world's largest starving and slavery population```

Malnourished does not equal starving (especially starving to death like in the great leap forward)

India scores better in malnourishment and hunger than does Pakistan (look up the global hunger index).

It is % prevalence that matters more than absolute number.

Having about 1% in slavery (and Pakistan is at the same level) simply does not compare with deliberately continuing the starvation of your country till 30 million perish (and exporting grain while you see them in some morbid ego trip to save face) and many more resorting to cannibalism and severe long term problems (even when the situation finally improved).

for the times had been to India doing business with the suppliers in the past, you can never comprehend we are living in 21 century``the whole country seems to have too many appalling, yet simplistic, conditions and problems that the government can deal with ease```nonetheless, the local high caste lords and the puppet GOI are doing nothing but keeping injecting nonsensical stuff from media to make the mess uneducated public extremely deluded and ignorant.

I go by neutrally measured Human Development Index (which you should look up). India and Bangladesh are making good progress here over the last couple decades compared to Pakistan which is much more stagnant (and has added 0 rank for the last decade or so). So if the problems are that bad in India, they are multiple levels worse in Pakistan.

So those living in glass house should not throw stones. China and Chinese are in a position where they can rightfully criticize India for its pace of development on the whole. I respect what China has achieved on many many fronts and they have many ideas and concepts that India would be wise in following and implementing (and it has influenced a lot of what our current leader and govt is doing). But what is there to respect in Pakistan in the same way? We look forwards, not backwards....we can't hear you over how far ahead we are and pulling away. Best to catch up, and reduce the increasing gulf and then maybe your words will mean something.