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Pervez Hoodbhoy's Secular Delusion

Lol, run away like a typical Libturd.

I swear you lot are the most dumb and retarded cretins on this earth. Darwin's evolution at work I guess.

Belief in Allah and His messengers is the most logical and rational belief that BILLIONS the world over easily accept because it is logical and rational.

The few defective morons who deny this are the dead-end of their family tree which is why atheists and secularists have little to no offspring. Survival of the fittest I guess, right? :lol:

We've been at it for 2 hours, and to me it seems that all criticism is futile. I feel I have made enough points that other viewers can form their own opinion. Have other things to do than this time waste.

Also, it's not billions, it's actually 1.5 billion.
And more than a billion also believe in more than 2 Gods.

And yes, survival of the fittest indeed. Large number of Muslims are dying in Palestine, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, Africa. each day, and month. Survival of the fittest indeed.

Abuse is what you're good at it, keep it up. I take someone else's meltdown as a compliment.
 
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and how is that different from shia or sunni or wahabi islam..........................
Not different. Shia and sunni islam is based on historical differences.

Wahabi and sunni difference is based on interpretation. U can use any interpretation as long as it is not against quran.

On the core of it ...islam is quran centered.

Take example of constitution. Different lawyer and even judges will give different explanation of same statement. Does this means law is wrong ? No constitution is the guiding principle and explanation is as per context. Similarly wahabi interpretation was created in 17th century by cleric named wahab. He focused on the issues of 17th century arab.

Similarly barelvi sect started when muslims starting to divert from sunnah so they focused teaching of sunnah more. Deobandi was created when some people started becoming extreme in sunnah so they tried to reduce that impact... all these differences are based on context and are theological differences.

For a common muslim u just follow core principles and u will be a true a muslim. Follow quran offer namaz zakat fast hajj. Speak truth believe in Allah oneness and Prophet Muhammad SAW is last messenger.

Avoid bad deads mention in quran and thats it. U dont even required to be associated with shia sunni or wahabi. These are theological debates and common muslim is not required to get into these.

U can refer moulana tariq jamil or dr israr ahmed for further details
 
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Also, it's not billions, it's actually 1.5 billion.
And more than a billion also believe in more than 2 Gods.
Never did claim that billions were Muslim. Go back and pay attention this time
And yes, survival of the fittest indeed. Large number of Muslims are dying in Palestine, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, Africa. each day, and month. Survival of the fittest indeed.
And yet large numbers of Muslims are increasing in your secular Liberal atheist countries despite years of Islamophobic propaganda.

And thanks for showing your true face having glee at the suffering of Muslims by wars and genocides imposed by your beloved secular Liberal world order.
 
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While I agree that creativity must be nurtured for our society to be all that it can be, our society also needs to reaffirm its foundational cornerstone to maintain a common framework to build upon. In this way we need children to know all aspects of who we are as a people, as a nation, and to what common beliefs we can turn to seek social harmony, equality, and justice.

These detractors of the changes to the curriculum need to propose changes that respect the core goal of the path the reforms are trying to make, while finding ways that encourage the creativity and an inquisitive mind. Perhaps they should fund libraries and require children be allowed to take out any book from the library and be given time in school to be read and ask the teachers about it. Building a science museum each each city where kids can take a trip to will allow kids to wonder and persue the field of it interests them. Funding Children’s programming on television is a very effective way to encourage children to be creative and ask questions.

In the mean time, we have a literacy crisis that undermines civic participation and basic employability among the vast majority of the work force.

Northern Europe (Protestant Europe) reconciled this when it set out circa 1500 to be industrious. They don’t call it the Protestant work ethnic for nothing. One of Niall Ferguson’s 6 killer apps that enabled the west to beat the rest. This curriculum should be geared to building the Muslim work ethic, Fisibillah, for the sake of Allah.

BTW, of the other 5 killer apps; Pakistan has a consumer society. It needs to leave in creativity encouraging education and give enough funding as the economy improves to reinforce the Scientific method. There need to be a reform to the legal system so that property rights and ease of doing business improve to world standards. There is a need to fund health care and the pharmaceutical industry do that we can produce ad even develop our own treatments to our own health problems, and finally we need to improve rule of law so that contracts can be enforced quickly and so that business can get on with the business of competition with enough other to keep ever improving.


The Chinese have had great success educating the population by rout memorization but have limited creativity, which they are trying to reconcile.


If any further proof of why the foundations of society need to be reinforced and what unchecked liberal philosophy can do to a society, one need only look at the works of Chris Hedges. He documents how the Democratic party in the US has betrayed the working class due to there liberal illusions.


Excellent post, as a health professional myself, as well as a life-long student of Islamic fiqh and Islamic history, I agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote.

We Muslims need to go back to what made us successful from the beginning, which were the teachings of Prophet Muhammad saws.

We also should not be afraid to adopt any new technologies or ways of thinking to benefit our people and societies, as long as they do not contradict Islam.

If we adopt Western or Chinese methods, we need to own it for ourselves and not copy paste blindly, as then we will have the same problems in our society as they have.

We learn from the best anyone has to offer, even if they are our avowed enemies like Israelis, and benefit Pakistan and Pakistanis.

Iran is a good model to emulate in this endeavor. They have a very robust Islamic-oriented system which is producing religious minded scientists, etc.

I would very much like it if you are right.
However, as far as I know in the last 1000 years there has been no perfect Islamic society.
So, I am a little pessimistic that one can be brought about in the next 20 years.

No perfect society has functioned except under prophets and sahabah, tabaeen.

The goal is not to create a perfect society, but the closest to it, in light of the teachings of Quran and Sunnah.

In just a century, the Western capitalist order is collapsing, Communism collapsed in even less time, so Islam still has the longest lasting civilization and governing system.

yeeeeah, that is because the secular governments are the ones who do the killing, so they do not need any non-state orgs. NATO, Russia, USA all have killed, pillaged and murdered hundreds of thousands. actions do speak louder than words.

:tup: They declare their organized killing machines as the only proper use of force, then declare all resistance to it as terrorism.

the white overlords are the ones that caused the split in Dunyawi and Deeni education in the first place, and also nothing to do with the fact that the education system that they put in place was meant to produce coconuts who were more loyal to the crown than to their land,

:tup: Islam sees no separation between reason and religion. In Islam, unlike Christianity, logic/reason leads to Islam inevitably.

A ''certain group'' that have already infested all of the western world with their ideas are now targeting non-conformist states. A glimpse into their modus operandi is as follows;

1- Religion bashing.
2- Morality basing.
3- Criticism of family life.
4- Call human a social animal (emphasize on the animal part) and argue that suppressing animalistic urges is a hindrance in the progress of society.
5- Have sex with anyone and anything indiscriminately as long as there is consent.
6- Steady bombardment of sentences like "there is no god" or ''god is not real'' etc. through popular media.
7- Mock and criticise people's religiosity. Marginalize those who would stick to their way of life by designating them, fundamentalists.

The list goes on but these are some of the basics. Pakistan is still in the initial stages and this evil needs to be nipped in the bud before it is too late.

You put it quite well. Jazak Allahu khairan.

But the Quran is not the book of physics. If it is then we should banned Physics books in Physics class and should try to force Quran in Physics class.

Ridiculous comment.

As per the Islamist, Quaid e Azam was a Kafir or a traitor.

He was a Wali of Allah swt, who had visions from him. A mureed of Allama Iqbal, another Wali, who was gifted with sacred hidden knowledge.

We left our destiny in their hands because we trusted them, and we have been thanking them ever since.

Jis bhanda Allah pe bharosa karta he, who kabhi mayoos ni hota.
 
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We've been at it for 2 hours, and to me it seems that all criticism is futile. I feel I have made enough points that other viewers can form their own opinion. Have other things to do than this time waste.

Also, it's not billions, it's actually 1.5 billion.
And more than a billion also believe in more than 2 Gods.

And yes, survival of the fittest indeed. Large number of Muslims are dying in Palestine, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, Africa. each day, and month. Survival of the fittest indeed.

Abuse is what you're good at it, keep it up. I take someone else's meltdown as a compliment.
You are a patient man.
Would you mind if I summarized some of your points and added some of mine?

secularism means separation of mullah and state.

It does not mean that everyone has to turn atheist or that we all have to sleep with animals or turn gay. It just means that the clergy deal with all matters of the after life and the senators deal with matters of this life.

The reason why having religion take up so much space in the common curriculum is a bad idea is that religion is based on faith and questioning is discouraged.

science is based on questioning. It is peer reviewed and we know it works because we fly aero planes, we vaccinate, we use email and refrigerators and put satellites in space. It works.

modern economies are based on science.

the reason theocracy are NEVER scientifically advanced is because their citizens are discouraged from questioning hence cannot contribute to new science. They can learn what others teach but cannot do anything themselves.

There is not one single Muslin country trying to produce a COVID vaccine.

Science and morality are not connected. It is like expecting your refrigerator to bake you a cake.no can do.

Religion is no guarantee of morality. A lot has been said about sleeping with animals on this thread. MERS originated in a strict theocracy because of doing unmentionable to camels. Obviously religion even the strictest kind did not stop that.
All that enforcing strict religious laws actually does to a society is force immoral acts into darker spaces and it is used as a rod to beat the weak with.
Pakistan has to find a way to give people space to practice (or not practice ) religion as they chose. It is very hard to do because we were created in the name of Islam.

if we don’t we will never achieve our full potential.
 
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3. Okay, I can see intelligent design in nature. But how do I know which God made it? Was it your God, my God, was it more than 1 God?
The God of (all) - one true God.

3. How do you know they would fight, what if they're cooperative, what if they have their own domains.
Care to elaborate these domains?

I believe in them. But you honestly can't prove these. Religion is about belief and faith. How are you going to prove that meteors run after jinn?
Have you developed a method to observe this phenomenon? Research part? Perhaps you should.

I have a better question for you in fact:

How did Holy Prophet (PBUH) knew that Arab societies will construct supertall buildings and compete with each other in this matter? 1400+ years ago.

Best wishes.
 
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That's the difference between science and religion.

Science is the study of the universe by how we understand it through our faculties, given to us by Allah swt. It is limited to only human experience. Science changes every year, what we thought we knew becomes false and abandoned.

Islam is not like that. Universal truth is coming from the direct source. Islam gives us a guideline on how to live our lives, and deals with mostly the philosophical sphere, which is outside accepted science.

One can be a scientist and a religious Muslim at the same time, there are no contradictions. Many of the greatest scientists and inventors have been religious Muslims. Many of the best scientists and doctors today are Muslims, throughout the world.
 
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If we practice Islam or follow true islamic scholars like dr. israr ahmed, moulana tariq jamil and dr zakir naik you will never find these stupid claims.

Thank you brother for reminding me of my teacher and family friend. He also was a medical doctor, philosopher, and islamic scholar.

Poor guy would've had his head off in today's world. Same with Islamic philosophers like Ibn-e-Arabi.

That's how restricted and backward we have become.

How come both Hoodbhoy and Ghamidi are walking around free in Pakistan? You are misrepresenting our religipn and our society.

And yes, survival of the fittest indeed. Large number of Muslims are dying in Palestine, Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, Africa. each day, and month. Survival of the fittest indeed.

They were murdered by your Western lords. They did not automatically die from becoming evolutionary dead ends.

I think your knowledge of science also is very elementary.
 
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where it is mentioned? :o:
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But there is no concept of Church in Islam.

That is exactly the problem with the prevailing discourse about church and state in the "Western" world. They look at secularism and the separation of church and state through the prism of their own experiences. As you mention, the church has no equivalent in Sunni Islam (though the major Shia sects like the Ithnasharis and Ismailis are setup in a manner not too different from the Catholic Church).

For a long time, the Europeans and their descendants in North America were beholden to the "faith" that the church demanded. Reason was often anathematised. So when science began to offer alternative narratives to years of highhandedness by the church, many people rejected the church wholesale, and vowed never again to allow the church to wield any influence on matters of the state. Hence, the birth of secularism.

The Muslim experience was very, very different. For us, the "mosque" was not a rival of the state, nor did it look at science as though it offered a competing world view. For us, secularism was neither necessary, nor useful.

Unfortunately, there are many who talk of secularism in Pakistan, but know very little of its history. They want to import secularism as a solution that evolved in a very different context, and apply it in Pakistan. Their arguments spring from either well-intentioned ignorance, or malice.
 
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Unfortunately

Divide and Rule works with Secularism while Islam offers unity.

Essentially it comes down to land distribution and wealth management.

Secularism offers the "church" guilt free access to exploitation under guise of religious freedom and classicism inspired by tribalism as conservative values.

This elitism has caused a moral decay in all asian cultures in the modern world which traditionally have been more materialistic than the West despite the propaganda as such.
 
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Thank you brother for reminding me of my teacher and family friend. He also was a medical doctor, philosopher, and islamic scholar.

U r lucky. Heis my favourite islamic scholar. A genius who understands both modern world and quran equally well and his quranic tafseer is best as its very easy to understand for a layman
 
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