Pentagon: Stealth Fighter is a Lame Jammer, End it Already

[Iron_Eagle_17]

@ above:
The only nation that makes 5th gen fighter and is currently using one surely knows what a proper 5th gen is....
The problem is the timing .... in the current economic hardship it is common sense to cut on some luxury...and so these meaasures are taken....They don't have a credible long lasting threat....who can fight them and withstand their might(conventionally)...they can accomodate without F-22A....for long enough until F-35 comes in production....
Also the price will not come down maybe when PAK-FA and JXX come out it might force the yankeees to sell raptor to nations like Israel and co..

 

[Silent observer]

Friend 6th generation jet fighter? Dont you think america should first make 'Proper' 5th generation fighter and than think of '6th generation'??? F-22 raptor aint perfect 5th generation. i dont say that. Americans saying it. So we should stick to topic '5th generation'. Thank you.

wow! US do not know how to make a proper 5th generation fighter, really!!!. i think US is the only country in the world at the moment using it and not only one but two 5th generation fighters. by the time PAKFA and JXX will come they will be ready to sell this 5th generation to their strong and close allies and their 6th generation will be lined up to be included in their inventory.

my friend being patriotic dosnt mean that we do not give deserved credit for their achievements to other countries. US is the leader in fighter jet technology and we should appreciate that. i mean they have done a lot of hard work to create something and it do not deserved to be criticise just for the sake of criticism.

about sticking to the topic, i was trying to answer the post of another memeber but anyhow i went off topic and that was my bad and i will try to stick on the topic in future.

regards

sincerely

 

[Thomas]

Senate votes to halt F-22 fighter program - KSWB

Don't let that fool you. While the U.S. Government may not be building anymore right now. Many in Congress are trying to open up F-22 sales to other countries. Like Japan, Australia, Israel, ect. And if India and Russia do ramp up production of the Pak-FA in numbers larger then a few hundred you can bet the U.S. government will probably buy more.

 

[Developereo]

Don't let that fool you. While the U.S. Government may not be building anymore right now. Many in Congress are trying to open up F-22 sales to other countries. Like Japan, Australia, Israel, ect. And if India and Russia do ramp up production of the Pak-FA in numbers larger then a few hundred you can bet the U.S. government will probably buy more.

True.
Japan can probably afford it, and Israel would surely get it at a discount.

Australia was already having second thoughts about JSF, so I am not sure they would pony up $200million for a F22. India and Russia are a loooong way off, and there is no tension as far as I know.

The only way Australia would go for F22 would be if Indonesia got the PAKFA, which seems unlikely.

 

[Silent observer]

True.
Japan can probably afford it, and Israel would surely get it at a discount.

Australia was already having second thoughts about JSF, so I am not sure they would pony up $200million for a F22. India and Russia are a loooong way off, and there is no tension as far as I know.

The only way Australia would go for F22 would be if Indonesia got the PAKFA, which seems unlikely.

you are right japan can definitely afford F22 and they have tried it already. they hav already tried 2 fighters (eurofighter and F22) and one is suposed to be included in their inventory. but i think US has already refused them F22 at the moment but instead they have placed some F22 may be a sqn) here in japan for the security of japan.

regards

sincerely

 

[gambit]

Friend 6th generation jet fighter? Dont you think america should first make 'Proper' 5th generation fighter and than think of '6th generation'??? F-22 raptor aint perfect 5th generation. i dont say that. Americans saying it. So we should stick to topic '5th generation'. Thank you.

There are NO accepted criteria as to what is '5th' or '6th' or 'umpteenth' generation of aircraft design. No one is saying that: "The '6th' generation will have death rays and anti-gravity drives. The '7th' generation will have time travel capability. And the '10th' generation will be able to access alternate universes." In other words, every time there is an aircraft that is clearly a leap of evolution from the current designs, we simply place that design into a made-up category until a more advanced design come along. So when someone managed to dredge up something about the F-22 that does not fit his preconceived and false understanding of what is a '5th' generation, the result is a crappy article published and everyone who is desperate enough to downplay US technological superiority in aviation will eagerly grasp at the crappy article.

 

[gubbi]

^^^ OK Gambit. Whats really cooking? The US Congress is not insane to cap a program which apparently makes THE awesomest fighter. Neither is the SecDef who is privy to some very sensitive information. I read on some other forum that there are some 4-5 top secret stealth airframes being tested (where else but Area51 --- jus kiddin') apart from some futuristic programs.
Does the US already have a better alternative to the F-22 in the wings? That would probably make sense given the status where the raptor seems to be headed.

 

[gambit]

^^^ OK Gambit. Whats really cooking?

Right now...? A nice hot steaming bowl of pho for breakfast.

The US Congress is not insane to cap a program which apparently makes THE awesomest fighter.

Am willing to be generous and say my representatives are not medically certified as 'insane'. But I am willing to say that Democrats are stupid and should have no place in DoD.

Neither is the SecDef who is privy to some very sensitive information.

He does...And I clued him to where.

I read on some other forum that there are some 4-5 top secret stealth airframes being tested (where else but Area51 --- jus kiddin') apart from some futuristic programs.

Actually it is Area 52. Area 51 is just a tourist trap. We have this in Area 52.

We lost it overboard because of high seas. Then the space race gave US the perfect cover to conduct a salvage operation. Apollo 11 and later landings were just necessary cover that had to be done. No one was in any real danger in Apollo 13. That mission had to be a mishap in order to maintain credibility, after all, we were supposed to be not THAT far ahead of the pinko commie Soviets. Our moonbase is on the opposite side of the moon, now no longer needed. We have many other technologies derived from this craft. I helped in developement a miniature nuclear grenade equipped with an Einstein-Rosen bridge where the dialed in yield will utterly atomize everything inside an area, from a closet to a city, but the excess energy will be shunted to the far side of the moon in the instant of explosion.

Does the US already have a better alternative to the F-22 in the wings?

Yes.

That would probably make sense given the status where the raptor seems to be headed.

The Raptor is being cut because the Democraps are usually stupid and spineless when it comes to national defense, not because it is 'too expensive'. There are many programs inside other federal departments that under Fraud, Waste and Abuse would annually pay for several Raptors.

 

[gubbi]

Right now...? A nice hot steaming bowl of pho for breakfast.

Am willing to be generous and say my representatives are not medically certified as 'insane'. But I am willing to say that Democrats are stupid and should have no place in DoD.

He does...And I clued him to where.



Actually it is Area 52. Area 51 is just a tourist trap. We have this in Area 52.

We lost it overboard because of high seas. Then the space race gave US the perfect cover to conduct a salvage operation. Apollo 11 and later landings were just necessary cover that had to be done. No one was in any real danger in Apollo 13. That mission had to be a mishap in order to maintain credibility, after all, we were supposed to be not THAT far ahead of the pinko commie Soviets. Our moonbase is on the opposite side of the moon, now no longer needed. We have many other technologies derived from this craft. I helped in developement a miniature nuclear grenade equipped with an Einstein-Rosen bridge where the dialed in yield will utterly atomize everything inside an area, from a closet to a city, but the excess energy will be shunted to the far side of the moon in the instant of explosion.



Yes.

The Raptor is being cut because the Democraps are usually stupid and spineless when it comes to national defense, not because it is 'too expensive'. There are many programs inside other federal departments that under Fraud, Waste and Abuse would annually pay for several Raptors.

lol at the x-wing fighter. I know a place where its hidden
Funding for the raptor was being cut during Bush's time, dems got nothing to do with it. Even Gates, an ardent republican with extensive experience, is in favor of capping the raptor. So for all the loud noises saying that US is compromising on security/dominance by curtailing the Raptor, there are probably more efficient programs which might surpass the F-22 in every field. Maybe raptors are what you call only tech demonstrators.
Dems may be spineless when it comes to def (we all know the famous Rumsfeld quotes btw), its mostly under the dems that US has fought many of its wars. Anyhow, those very programs are probably more important than spending money on a bird for which a better alternative/replacement may already be ready

 

[gambit]

Funding for the raptor was being cut during Bush's time, dems got nothing to do with it.

The US Congress, not the President, controls the nation's purse strings. If the US Congress do not allocate funding for a program, it dies regardless of whoever is President.

Even Gates, an ardent republican with extensive experience, is in favor of capping the raptor.

Against the opinions of his Air Force generals.

Maybe raptors are what you call only tech demonstrators.

I am certain that is everyone's wish. And I wish I won the Powerball lottery.

 

[gubbi]

The US Congress, not the President, controls the nation's purse strings. If the US Congress do not allocate funding for a program, it dies regardless of whoever is President.

1. Wasnt that a republican congress which vetoed further purchases of F-22?
2. Doesnt the POTUS sometimes veto the Congress?

Against the opinions of his Air Force generals.

Ok, then whats the reason for scrapping this fighter? When the representatives have got jobs to worry about in their respective states (many states contribute to this program, aint that right?) then why would the congress veto the program?

I am certain that is everyone's wish. And I wish I won the Powerball lottery.

Ah the lottery! And wishes and dreams. Though I prefer playing slot machines while being served beer by bikini clad ladies on the Strip!

 

[ARSENAL6]

Pentagon: Stealth Fighter is a Lame Jammer, End it Already

Congress and the Pentagon are locked in a battle royale over the future of the Air Force’s $150 million-per-copy F-22 Raptor stealth fighter. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates thinks 187 of the jets is just plenty. House and Senate panels have moved to buy at least another seven this year — and potentially dozens more, later.

In a Senate confirmation hearing Thursday, Marine Gen. James Cartwright, the vice chairman of Joints Chief of Staff, defended Gates’ position — and whipped out a new argument for why Raptor-making should end. Faced with shutting down either Lockheed Martin’s F-22 production line, or Boeing’s competing F/A-18E/F fighter, for cost reasons, Cartwright said he asked the military’s regional commanders what air capabilities they needed most. They chose “electronic warfare,” a.k.a. “radar jamming,” Cartwright said. That meant keeping the Boeing jet, for only it has a dedicated jammer version, the EA-18G Growler.

Cartwright’s testimony might come as a surprise to some Raptor boosters, who for years have touted the stealthy jet’s ability to perform “electronic-attack” missions, including jamming, using its sophisticated, electronically scanned radar. It’s for this reason that a top Air Force official, in 2007, said the Raptor’s “F-22″ designation simply wasn’t comprehensive enough. “It’s not an F-22, it’s an F-, A-, B-, E-, EA-, RC-, AWACS … 22,” then-Deputy Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. David Deptula said, adding the letter prefixes for bombers, spy and radar planes and jammers.

But the F-22’s electronic-attack skills have remained dormant, while the Air Force focuses on honing the jet’s air-to-air prowess, and improving vexing maintenance problems. The Raptor won’t be able to jam enemy radars, until 2011 — and then, only half the fleet will have that capability. The Raptor suffers other, serious limitations, that haven’t been widely reported. As many as half of the jets already paid for, lack modern dogfighting systems, such as helmet-mounted sights.

Still, the F-22 is the only jet that can routinely “supercruise” — flying faster than sound, without afterburner — and there are hints it can use this ability to loft AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, high enough to kill enemy satellites. But that wasn’t enough to sway top generals, when asked to choose between the Raptor and the much cheaper F-18. In a recent mock dogfight, an EA-18G “killed” an F-22 — one of only a handful of times any other fighter has managed such a feat, in the air. Now the electronic F-18 has also beaten the Raptor in the hallways of the Pentagon.

Wait Until they go up against an f16

 

[gambit]

1. Wasnt that a republican congress which vetoed further purchases of F-22?
2. Doesnt the POTUS sometimes veto the Congress?

Ok, then whats the reason for scrapping this fighter? When the representatives have got jobs to worry about in their respective states (many states contribute to this program, aint that right?) then why would the congress veto the program?

More precisely...It is the House of Representatives that control the nation's purse strings. The Senate can only input its version.

For FY1992 and 1993, the 102nd and 103rd Congress were dominated by Democrats in both Houses. For FY1997 and 1998, the 105th Congress was dominated by Republicans. And so on...

So even though there might be a Republican dominance money for the F-22 could have been compromised in favor of other programs inserted by Democrats and Republicans. Some Dems whose districts may contributed to the F-22 program may tried to save the program but could not. Some Republicans whose districts may not be involved but supported the F-22 may have been pushed aside out of the same considerations that negatively affected the Dems whose districts have interests.

This sort of deal-making among legislators are typical for any budgeting process lest anyone think their country's process is any different. Party dominance does not guarantee insurance for a particular program since even though the President has veto power over a proposed budget from the Congress, or more precisely from the House of Representatives, it is an all-or-nothing deal, meaning the President has to either approve the entire budget or reject it completely. When powerful legislators, either powerful in influence or powerful in positions of leaderships, have no interests or perhaps even outright hatred for a particular program, they can exploit loopholes in the parliamentary process and procedures to delay or even prevent proponents of those programs from presenting their arguments.

===
Please note the correct context of the word 'parliamentary' here to denote the lawmaking process, not the representative method.

Parliamentary Procedure - NAP

Parliamentary procedure is used by all types of decision-making bodies on a daily basis: school boards, homeowners' associations, city councils, and non-profit boards of directors, for example. Parliamentary procedure also defines what duties people typically have when they are elected the president, secretary, or treasurer of an organization.

 

[r0ck]

True.
Japan can probably afford it, and Israel would surely get it at a discount.

Australia was already having second thoughts about JSF, so I am not sure they would pony up $200million for a F22. India and Russia are a loooong way off, and there is no tension as far as I know.

The only way Australia would go for F22 would be if Indonesia got the PAKFA, which seems unlikely.

Any chance for Pakistan to get the F22 at a discount????

 

[Thomas]

Any chance for Pakistan to get the F22 at a discount????

Pakistan would probably stand a better chance getting the F-35 or F-15 silent eagle.