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Peace in Afghanistan Will Not be Possible Until Kabul Acknowledges The Durand Line'

I'm sure settling the border would be a big help but I've never perceived why doing so would guarantee that Pakistan cease its desire to keep Afghanistan a mess if free, or a satellite state if not.

I think the DL issue can and should be addressed separately. I think there are grounds for concessions by both sides. Specifically, while the DL was a "border" between Afghanistan and British India it never became a controlled border until a few years after Pakistan was established. That meant, for example, that shepherds who used to shuttle their flocks between the Afghan highlands in summer and Pakistani lowlands in winter were suddenly cutoff from their time-honored usual pasturage.

The 1783 U.S.-Britain peace treaty had a similar issue. It was settled by granting Americans very specific and limited extra-territorial rights in Canada and agreeing to peaceably settle the remaining border dispute through discussion - which took until 1842, even though there were one or two minor armed conflicts in the disputed region in the meantime.
All lies.

The Durand line between Afghanistan and British Raj India was considered to be the controlled border.

Treaty of Rawalpindi
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The Treaty of Rawalpindi was signed on 8 August 1919 and changed on 22 November 1921. It was an agreement between the United Kingdom and Afghanistan in the Third Anglo-Afghan War.[1] The UK said British India would not go past Khyber Pass. The changes in 1921 are sometimes called the Anglo-Afghan Treaty of 1921.[2]


https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Rawalpindi#cite_note-2

Anglo-Afghan Treaty of 1919
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Anglo-Afghan Treaty of 1919
Type bilateral treaty
Signed 8 August 1919
Location Rawalpindi, British India
Original
signatories
United Kingdom
Afghanistan
Ratifiers United Kingdom
Afghanistan
The Anglo-Afghan Treaty of 1919,[1][2] also known as the Treaty of Rawalpindi, was an armistice made between the United Kingdom and Afghanistan during the Third Anglo-Afghan War.[3] It was signed on 8 August 1919 in Rawalpindi, British India (now in Punjab, Pakistan). The United Kingdom recognised Afghanistan's independence, agreed that British India would not extend past the Khyber Pass and stopped British subsidies to Afghanistan. This treaty could be cancelled by both parties within three years of signing but neither party cancelled it. So this became an internationally recognised border agreement.[1]

See also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Afghan_Treaty_of_1919


Why should Pakistan concede anything? LOL.

Treaty of Rawalpindi has no expiry date. So there is nothing for Pakistan to concede.

Its tough luck for Afghanistan.

Durand line is not the same thing as Kashmir dispute.

@Dubious @waz @The Eagle ban @Solomon2 for lying or spreading misinformation.

Afghanistan and Pakistan: The Poisoned Legacy of the Durand Line

By Joseph V. Micallef

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Pashtun mujahidin on the Durand border line between Pakistan and Afghanistan, 1985

Historically, Afghanistan has lain astride the invasion route from central Asia into the Indian subcontinent. It was also the shortest route from central Asia to the Indian Ocean. This was the route that the Persian conqueror Darius I took in 516 BC. Alexander the Great followed suit in 326 BC. In turn they were followed by, among others, Muslim armies under Qutaybs ibn Muslim in 705, by Mahmoud Ghazni of the Afghan Ghaznavid Empire in 1001, Muhammad Ghori of the Ghurid Empire in 1175, and the Mongol, Genghis Khan in 1219.

Timur (Tamerlane), during his conquest of northwest India in 1383, took the same route and his descendent Babur, whose grave is in Kabul, also passed through the Khyber Pass on his way to creating the Mogul empire in India in 1526. Ahmad Shah Durrani of the Afghan Durrani Empire followed suit when he attempted to conquer the Punjab in 1748. The last invasion of Afghanistan from central Asia was the Soviet one in 1979. The invasion route ran both ways. The Sikh Empire invaded Afghanistan from the southeast in 1813, and the British fought three wars with the Afghans (1838, 1878, and 1919).

The Himalayas block access from central Asia to the Indian subcontinent and to the Indian Ocean. Their western most extension, the Hindu Kush, is penetrated by the Salang Pass, which separates northern Afghanistan (and Central Asia) from the rest of Afghanistan, and the Khyber Pass through the Spin Ghar Mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan, in turn an extension of the Hindu Kush. The two passes are the traditional trade and invasion route from central Asia to the Arabian Sea or into the Punjab of north India and from there the rest of the Indian subcontinent. For millennium, Afghanistan has been fought over by would be conquerors, both for its mineral wealth and also for its strategic position at the crossroads of central and south Asia. Even in the technologically driven world of the twenty-first century, geography still matters.

In the nineteenth century, Afghanistan became a pawn in “the Great Game” between the Russian Empire and Great Britain for control of central Asia. As Russia gobbled up one central Asians khanate after another, the steadily expanding Russian Empire began to encroach, in British eyes, dangerously close to British India. In an attempt to preclude any further Russian expansion south, Great Britain twice invaded Afghanistan only to be defeated by a guerilla army drawn primarily from the Pashtun tribes that inhabited the region.

In an effort to secure control of the strategic Khyber Pass, in 1893, Great Britain dispatched a British diplomat, Mortimer Durand, to negotiate an agreement to delineate the border between the Emirate of Afghanistan and British India. The resulting agreement resulted in a frontier that ran from the Karakoram Range in the northeast running south through the Spin Ghar mountains (Safed Koh and Toba Kakar Ranges) before turning west along the Chagai Hills to the border with Iran.

The new border, dubbed the Durand Line, divided the Pashtun tribal lands, a region informally referred to as Pasthunistan in two, with half of the Pashtun tribal region now part of British India and the balance remaining part of Afghanistan. The line also resulted in the loss of the province of Baluchistan to British India, depriving Afghanistan of its historic access to the Arabian Sea. The Durand Line also ensured that there would be a thin strip of Afghanistan running to the Chinese border, thus separating the Russian empire from British India. The Durand Line would become one of the principal issue of Afghanistan’s foreign policy for the next century and even now remains at the heart of Afghanistan’s relations with Pakistan.

The original agreement was only a page long. The treaty was written in English with copies in Dari and Pashto. The English copy, a language that the Afghan Amir Abdur Rahman Khan could neither read nor understand, Durand insisted, was to be the definitive copy. The 1,584-mile boundary was subsequently delimited between March 1894 and May 1986. The Durand Line precipitated a long-running dispute between the governments of Afghanistan and Great Britain and prompted a third Anglo-Afghan war in 1919. Under British pressure, subsequent Afghan governments reaffirmed the boundary line in additional treaties and agreements in 1905, 1919, 1921, and 1930.


Blue areas indicate historic “Pashtunistan”, red line the Durand line border.

The newly formed state of Pakistan inherited the boundary line delineated by the 1893 Durand agreement and upheld by the subsequent treaty of Rawalapindi (1919) that ended the Third Anglo-Afghan war. The government of Afghanistan however has, subsequently, refused to acknowledge that the frontiers represented by the Durand Line were legally binding. In 1947, when Pakistan joined the United Nations, Afghanistan was the only member to vote against its membership. On July 26, 1948, followed two years of steadily deteriorating relations between the two countries, the government of Afghanistan declared that it did not recognize “the imaginary Durand nor any similar line.” It also declared that all previous Durand Line agreements, including the subsequent Anglo-Afghan treaties upholding it, were void because they had been imposed on Afghanistan by British coercion.

Moreover, it is widely held in Afghanistan that the original agreement with Great Britain was only for 100 years after which the lands in question would revert back to Afghanistan. The official treaty, however, makes no reference to a specific term. Past Afghan governments have implied that the Dari and Pashto copies of the original agreement specified the 100 year term (1893-1993) and that this provision was deliberately left out by Mortimer Durand in the “official,” English language version, of the treaty. No evidence of this contention has ever been produced, however, and it is not clear whether the Dari and Pashto language versions of the original agreement still exist.

The question of the legitimacy of the Durand Line borders has poisoned Afghan-Pakistani relations for the better part of a century. For Afghanistan, the loss of half of the traditional Pashtun territories divided its largest tribal grouping. Moreover, the loss of Baluchistan left it landlocked, without any access to the Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean except through Pakistani territory. For Pakistan, the issue of the Durand Line is an existential one. The territory in question amounts to some 60% of its present sovereign territory.

During the cold war the Afghan-Pakistani dispute was subsumed to the larger Soviet-American rivalry. Pakistan aligned itself with the United States, becoming as founding member of CENTO (Central Treaty Organization), while Afghanistan refused to settle its differences with Pakistan as a precondition of joining CENTO and instead sought diplomatic and military support from India and the Soviet Union. Afghanistan was one of the few “holes” in the ring of containment with which the United States surrounded the Soviet Union. The emergence of Pakistan and Afghanistan as Soviet and American proxies meant that, other for ongoing border skirmishes and covert operations, the larger issue of the Durand Line was left unsettled.


Soviet troops withdrawing from Afghanistan, 1989

The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 ushered in a new phase in Afghan-Pakistani relations and laid the foundation for a vastly expanded Pakistani role in Afghanistan’s internal affairs. Under the guise of Operation Cyclone, a program funded by the Central Intelligence Agency, Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence Agency (ISI) organized large numbers of mujahidin militant groups that it recruited mainly from the Pashtun tribes on its side of the Durand Line. At the time, the government of General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq had started a program of aggressive Islamization, so the ISI favored militant jihadist groups as Pakistan’s (and the United States’) proxies in Afghanistan.

American covert funding for the mujahidin began in response to the communist People’s Democratic Party of Afghanistan seizure of power in the Saur Revolution and predated the Soviet invasion by six months. The original program was relatively modest and only amounted to about 20 million dollars a year. By 1989, the year the Soviet Union withdrew from Afghanistan, it had increased to over 630 million dollars a year. The U.S. program continued through 1992, but after the Soviet withdrawal financial support quickly declined. Moreover, in October 1990, the Bush Administration refused to certify that Pakistan did not possess nuclear explosive devices, triggering the imposition of sanctions and a suspension of economic assistance and military sales.

Over the course of the program the ISI trained over 100,000 militants to fight the Soviets and Afghanistan’s communist government. The CIA funded some 20 billion dollars of expenditures, although some of those funds may have come from contributions of Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf states that were funneled directly to the CIA.

Operation Cyclone has two lasting consequences. First in contributing to the subsequent collapse of the Soviet Union it deprived Afghanistan of its principal patron and supporter. Secondly, it presented to Pakistan and the ISI a model for how it could intervene in Afghanistan’s internal affairs. The fall of the Najibullah government in 1992, and the subsequent four years of chaos, would set the stage for the rise of the Taliban in 1996 and create an opportunity for Pakistan’s ISI to emerge as both the Taliban’s financer, organizer and principal patron. The Taliban, in turn, would give Pakistan’s ISI an unprecedented opportunity to exert its control over Afghanistan and its government. An opportunity that Pakistan’s government has pursued for the last 20 years.


President Ronald Reagan meeting with mujahidin fighters in the oval office, February 1983.

Ironically, even the Taliban, which is dependent on Pakistani military and financial support for its survival, has refused to accept the legitimacy of the Durand Line. Despite Pakistani pressure, the Taliban, both when it was in power and to the present day, has sided with previous Afghan governments in maintaining that the Durand Line was void.

The result of the ongoing dispute over the legitimacy of the Durand Line has meant that Pakistan has a vested interest in ensuring that the Afghan government never gets strong enough to unilaterally change the current frontier with Pakistan. Given that Pakistan has six times the population of Afghanistan and a formidable military, the only practical scenario under which Afghanistan would regain its disputed territories would only be as a consequence of a complete collapse of the Pakistani government. Most likely as a result of a fourth Indo-Pakistani war, a Pakistani civil war, domestic revolution, or all of the above.

To avoid that possibility, Pakistan continues to rely on an external patron, bouncing back and forth between either China or the United States, as the ultimate guarantor of its security vis-à-vis India. The byzantine complexity of Afghan-Pakistani-Indian relations and the subsequent interest of Russia, China, and the United States in any changes in the status quo means that barring a negotiated settlement for some kind of division of the disputed territories or an Afghan acceptance of the Durand Line in exchange for the end of Pakistani support for the Taliban, either of which are highly unlikely events at the moment, there is no immediate solution to the Afghan-Pakistani dispute over the Durand Line and this issue will continue to complicate the relationship between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Given that the United States has a vested interest in the establishment of a secure and stable Afghan government and that Pakistan seems determined to use the Taliban and possibly other jihadist groups to ensure that doesn’t happen, the issues that surround the Durand Line will continue to have an impact on the formulation of U.S. policy in the region as well as complicate U.S.-Pakistani relations.

The most enduring and destructive legacy of five centuries of European colonialism are borders that were drawn for the sake of political and military expediency but which, given the region’s underlying history, culture, and ethnicity, make no sense today. The dispute over the Durand Line is just one more example of an ill-conceived frontier that continues to inflame the long running dispute between Afghanistan and Pakistan and which will shape the region’s politics well into the twenty-first century.


Follow Joseph V. Micallef on Twitter: www.twitter.com/JosephVMicallef

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-v-micallef/afghanistan-and-pakistan_b_8590918.html
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-v-micallef/afghanistan-and-pakistan_b_8590918.html

@Dubious @waz @The Eagle

The original document of the Treaty of Rawalpindi has no expiry date. lol.

So much for Pakistan to compromise.

As for @Solomon2 he can shoo away.
 
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Do you think United States thought -
You may want to watch this video interview of Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Carter's National Security Adviser:

and read up on the background of Operation Cyclone.

- by supporting terrorists?
Terrorists attack civilian populations. Guerillas attack military personnel and installations. Didn't the U.S. withdraw its support for the Pakistan-directed mujaheddin when they switched from fighting the Soviets to fighting each other and bombarding Kabul?
 
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Terrorists attack civilian populations.
My dear Solomon you know very well that is largely how you interpret or choose to interpret any given action. The Taliban at no point declare that their target is civilians. They are at war against the [by their interpretation] a puppet NUG in Kabul and US forces that underpin it. From their perspective civilian losses are 'collaterals" to the conflict insofar as much as the civilian losses in Nagasaki were "collaterals".

mujaheddin
They were savages, jihadis of the 80s. Many civilians died as result of their actions. The only redeaming feature was that they fought against what was at that time the shared geoplitical enemy of US, KSA and Pakistan. The Soviets. And that made everything 'kosher'.
 
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What treaty are you talking about?
The comparison I invoked was to the 1783 treaty between the U.S. and Great Britain. I thought it was clear that a new treaty between Pakistan and Afghanistan specifying rights is what I was suggesting, since in the late 1940s and early 1950s Pakistan essentially unilaterally altered what border between Afghanistan and Pakistan meant by establishing a controlled border. Thus in this vision of a new (or updated) treaty between Afghanistan and Pakistan, the DL demarcation itself would remain unchanged.
 
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The comparison I invoked was to the 1782 treaty between the U.S. and Great Britain. I thought it was clear that a new treaty between Pakistan and Afghanistan specifying rights is what I was suggesting, since in the late 1940s and early 1950s Pakistan essentially unilaterally altered what border between Afghanistan and Pakistan meant by establishing a controlled border. Thus in this vision of a new (or updated) treaty between Afghanistan and Pakistan, the DL demarcation itself would remain unchanged.
I don't even know what nonsense you are talking about. Bring evidence that Pakistan altered the controlled border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

As we all know according to the original British English document of the Treaty of Rawalpindi 1919 there is no expiry date.

So nice try though.

I think you are already in enough hot water.

The United Nations considers the Durand Line as the international border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

What is your point?
 
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Pakistan treats these as mere favors that can be withheld at whim, not as Afghanis' legal rights, correct? That's not at all the same thing as rights stipulated by the terms of a treaty.
To solidify such rights into a 'treaty/agreement' or any other official mechanism will require Afghanistan to recognize the internationally accepted Afghan-Pakistan border.

As I said, so long as Afghanistan continues to pose a threat to Pakistani sovereignty and territorial integrity, there is not going to be much concrete progress on any major issues.
 
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The comparison I invoked was to the 1782 treaty between the U.S. and Great Britain.
It is not comparable...

I thought it was clear that a new treaty between Pakistan and Afghanistan specifying rights is what I was suggesting, since in the late 1940s and early 1950s Pakistan essentially unilaterally altered what border between Afghanistan and Pakistan meant by establishing a controlled border. Thus in this vision of a new (or updated) treaty between Afghanistan and Pakistan, the DL demarcation itself would remain unchanged.
Did you miss this:

"The Anglo-Afghan Treaty of 1919, also known as the Treaty of Rawalpindi, was an armistice made between the United Kingdom and Afghanistan during the Third Anglo-Afghan War. It was signed on 8 August 1919 in Rawalpindi, British India (now in Punjab, Pakistan). The United Kingdom recognised Afghanistan's independence, agreed that British India would not extend past the Khyber Pass and stopped British subsidies to Afghanistan. This treaty could be cancelled by both parties within three years of signing but neither party cancelled it. So this became an internationally recognised border agreement."

I was suggesting, since in the late 1940s and early 1950s Pakistan essentially unilaterally altered what border between Afghanistan and Pakistan meant by establishing a controlled border. Thus in this vision of a new (or updated) treaty between Afghanistan and Pakistan, the DL demarcation itself would remain unchanged.
Can you prove that the border was altered since 1919! Interesting how you have failed to realized what the geopolitical situation REALLY looks like:

"before any all-parties peace conference can happen, all parties in Afghanistan must agree to acknowledge and respect the Durand line. If this does not happen, it risks having Pakistan negotiate from a position where it could set itself up to be taken advantage of by forces that have done so in the past (including the very recent past). If Pakistan and Afghanistan are to co-exist in peace, it is a fundamental requirement that Afghanistan understands where its borders end and where Pakistan’s begin."
 
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I made no such assertion. Maybe your English isn't so good?
Yea probably....
I thought it was clear that a new treaty between Pakistan and Afghanistan specifying rights is what I was suggesting

So you were suggesting the "formation" of a new treaty without the Afghanis accepting the old DL? Like seriously?
 
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Can you prove that the border was altered since 1919! Interesting how you have failed to realized what the geopolitical situation REALLY looks like:
Not just Solomon, it's a failure on the part of the entire US foreign policy establishment, that they have ignored and waffled on an issue so critical to a nation-state (territorial integrity) and then run around like headless chickens wondering why they don't get more support from Pakistan.

The US strategy to stabilize Afghanistan, especially from a regional context, has been shambolic to the point that there are many out there who believe this to be deliberate, that the end goal is to weaken Pakistan and prop up an Afghanistan (in conjunction with India) that poses a stronger threat to Pakistan.
 
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So you were suggesting the "formation" of a new treaty without the Afghanis accepting the old DL? Like seriously?
The suggestion is that since Pakistan changed the border from uncontrolled to controlled that updated treaty arrangements between the two be made in exchange for Afghan recognition of the DL.

It may not be something as small as acknowledging the right of American fishermen to dry their cod on Canadian seashores but in essence Pakistan's concessions would be something similar.
 
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The suggestion is that since Pakistan changed the border from uncontrolled to controlled that updated treaty arrangements between the two be made in exchange for Afghan recognition of the DL.
That's your problem...All over the thread 2 people showed you that the border was never changed and yet like a single channeled being you are ranting on and on about some mysterious change in border....

When there is no change in border ...there is no updated treaty!
 
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