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Partition 70 years on: When tribal warriors invaded Kashmir

@Sher Shah Awan

He was the youngest soldier in 5 AKRF Col Sher Khan's unit and My grandfather's cousin martyred at Chajjha Hill.

dsc05271-jpg.139021


Lt col Sher Shaheed founder of 5 AKRF. They both martyred together.

1925263_697718976945864_1332821574_n-jpg.138941
 
So proud of my grandfather who was one of those who helped liberate Azad Kashmir. I will raise my next generations to finish the task my grandfather left half completed. InshAllah.

And thanks to the warriors from the Tribal areas. We are in your debt.

Sorry, you got your history wrong.
  1. Pakistan administered Kashmir broke away due to the Sudhan tribesmen. They received, and sent on their way, the kabailies.
  2. Gilgit broke away due to the British traitor, commandant of the Gilgit Scouts, who mutinied, led the Scouts to ambush and massacre the Maharaja's troops, and then led two columns to capture Baltistan, including its capital Skardu, and Kargil, and to besiege Leh.
  3. Nothing else was accomplished by the raiders.

12 AKRF.



Most? Nope. Some misguided lot, influenced by foreign terrorists who killed their own Maliks.

OK, would you agree that there's ONE of them? Let's start at some point of agreement, so that you realise what you unleashed on yourselves.
 
OK. It reads better.

When Pakistani tribal warriors invaded Kashmir, and failed to capture the capital because they stopped to rape and kill those they had come to rescue from the Hindus.


Well, obviously. If Liaqat Ali Khan had left it at that, and not organised a clandestine, Army-staffed and Army-equipped raid, there would have been no insertion of Indian troops, there would have been no violence in the Vale, Leh and Kargil would have gone to Pakistan, and, sooner or later, the Maharaja would have listened to his Pandit counsellors, and acceded to Pakistan.

The stupidest thing that Pakistan could do, she did.



How do you know? You knew him personally? What is your reason for saying that? Just the fact that he exercised his sovereign rights and did not immediately accede to Pakistan? Or just on general principles, since he was a Hindu?



I would count one thousand other opinions, but still reject yours. I pay attention to the products of a member's intelligence and intellect, not his jerking of the knees.
He skinned alive dozen elders of my tribe in front of their families. You are advocating ISIS of that time.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/mina...edom-fighters-were-skinned-alive-1832.435026/

Sorry, you got your history wrong.
  1. Pakistan administered Kashmir broke away due to the Sudhan tribesmen. They received, and sent on their way, the kabailies.
  2. Gilgit broke away due to the British traitor, commandant of the Gilgit Scouts, who mutinied, led the Scouts to ambush and massacre the Maharaja's troops, and then led two columns to capture Baltistan, including its capital Skardu, and Kargil, and to besiege Leh.
  3. Nothing else was accomplished by the raiders.



OK, would you agree that there's ONE of them? Let's start at some point of agreement, so that you realise what you unleashed on yourselves.
First time in PDF i saw an Indian accepting services of Sudhan clan for the freedom of Poonch and Azad Kashmir. I am Sudhan from Rawalakot.


546893_295432487222848_1473235167_n.jpg
 
Any details about these tribal fighters??
Yeah, India attacked and occupied Hyderabad, Junagarh, Run of Kach and many other states who either wanted to stay independent or join Pakistan and then Pakistan had kept shut on Kashmir too?
Nice advice.

Not advice. This happened 70 years ago. I was pointing out that the raiders achieved nothing.

As for the attacks, have you seen the dates? And what happened in the Rann of Kutch?

Lastly, are you aware that staying independent was not an option for the princes? And that this dated from 1931?

With all due respect, I deal with historical facts, not with emotional breast-beating.
 
Not advice. This happened 70 years ago. I was pointing out that the raiders achieved nothing.

As for the attacks, have you seen the dates? And what happened in the Rann of Kutch?

Lastly, are you aware that staying independent was not an option for the princes? And that this dated from 1931?

With all due respect, I deal with historical facts, not with emotional breast-beating.
Yeah..you mean you deal with Indian distoretd vesion of history?
the people who have deleted taj Mahal?
I deal with real history, not psycho Indian version.
 
I wish you wouldn't.

I would hate the Indian Army and the security forces to have their blood on their hands. The average life of an infiltrator is less than 90 days.

I am not talking about infiltrating. I am talking about the regular army. And I am afraid there is no other way about this. A part of my family comes from the valley, and I would be a traitor to my grandfather and my kin in Kashmir if I did nothing to help in their struggle, until and unless India becomes serious about solving this crises.

@Sher Shah Awan

He was the youngest soldier in 5 AKRF Col Sher Khan's unit and My grandfather's cousin martyred at Chajjha Hill.

dsc05271-jpg.139021


Lt col Sher Shaheed founder of 5 AKRF. They both martyred together.

1925263_697718976945864_1332821574_n-jpg.138941

Much respect and gratitude. Promises remain unfulfilled however, until the Kashmiris are free again.

Sorry, you got your history wrong.
  1. Pakistan administered Kashmir broke away due to the Sudhan tribesmen. They received, and sent on their way, the kabailies.
  2. Gilgit broke away due to the British traitor, commandant of the Gilgit Scouts, who mutinied, led the Scouts to ambush and massacre the Maharaja's troops, and then led two columns to capture Baltistan, including its capital Skardu, and Kargil, and to besiege Leh.
  3. Nothing else was accomplished by the raiders.

I didn't sat they liberated Kashmir, Azad Kashmiris themselves liberated it, together with the people of Northern areas of Pakistan. It's the thought that counts, these guys came when our regulars couldn't because of collusion of some pompous twits at the top who wanted to continue their little empire game.

OK, would you agree that there's ONE of them? Let's start at some point of agreement, so that you realise what you unleashed on yourselves.

That's a topic for another discussion. These tribes have always been armed, TTP that formulated after 9/11 and gained ground and more following after Lal Masjid siege have nothing to do with these folks.

Some Mujahide Haydari awarded soldiers of your Grandfather's unit.

12 AK



Sub Said Muhammad Khan

Sub Muhammad Ashiq Khan

Hav Inayat Muhammad Khan

Nk Sangi Khan

Lnk Muhammad Hussain

Lnk Ghulam Din

Sep Miskin Ali Khan

Sep Makhan Khan

Sep Gulzar Khan

Sep Muhammad Azim Khan


Some Mujahide Haydari awarded soldiers of your Grandfather's unit.

12 AK



Sub Said Muhammad Khan

Sub Muhammad Ashiq Khan

Hav Inayat Muhammad Khan

Nk Sangi Khan

Lnk Muhammad Hussain

Lnk Ghulam Din

Sep Miskin Ali Khan

Sep Makhan Khan

Sep Gulzar Khan

Sep Muhammad Azim Khan

Fakhre Kashmir (Equivalent to Hilale Jurrat.)

12 AK



Capt Hadayat Khan

It's good to know about these heroes, my grandfather passed away before I was born so I know bits and bobs.
 
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I am not talking about infiltrating. I am talking about the regular army. And I am afraid there is no other way about this. A part of my family comes from the valley, and I would be a traitor to my grandfather and my kin in Kashmir if I did nothing to help in their struggle, until and unless India becomes serious about solving this crises.



Much respect and gratitude. Promises remain unfulfilled however, until the Kashmiris are free again.



I didn't sat they liberated Kashmir, Azad Kashmiris themselves liberated it, together with the people of Northern areas of Pakistan. It's the thought that counts, these guys came when our regulars couldn't because of collusion of some pompous twits at the top who wanted to continue their little empire game.



That's a topic for another discussion. These tribes have always been armed, TTP that formulated after 9/11 and gained ground and more following after Lal Masjid siege have nothing to do with these folks.



It's good to know about these heroes, my grandfather passed away before I was born so I know bits and bobs.

Without contesting your principled stand, which I admire at the level of ideals without supporting the objectives, one matter of fact needs to be placed before you.

The raiders were not randomly assembled tribesmen carrying their own arms. They were demobbed ex-servicemen to whom were issued the surplus arms that came to Pakistan's share of the division of assets. It was not at all a spontaneous tribal uprising in defence of the faith; it was, as happened again and again and again in the future, a carefully planned action of the Pakistan Army, carried out under the noses of the British. I would like to think that they were unaware of what was going on under their noses, but the actions of Alexander Brown shows the protective and nurturing attitude of the British towards Pakistan.

The 'little empire game' was certainly being played, but on behalf of Pakistan and for her benefit.
 
And one nation calls India, the mother of terrorism in South Asia

Strange :eek:

Yes Because They Started It.Indians Love To Tell Half The Story Why Don't They Talk About The Great Jammu Massacre Which Happened A Month Earlier In Which Hindu and Sikh Extremists Entered From Outside Massacred Around Half A Million Muslims

So proud of my grandfather who was one of those who helped liberate Azad Kashmir. I will raise my next generations to finish the task my grandfather left half completed. InshAllah.

And thanks to the warriors from the Tribal areas. We are in your debt.

My Great Grand Uncle Too Was Part Of The Liberation Effort I Learnt That Some 2 Years Back
 
Most of these tribes r now fighting your army in tribal areas
Nope, most of these tribes helped their motherland fight TTP in tribal areas; thanks to them, the tribal areas are now secure.

They were responsible for thwarting an Afghan invasion of Bajaur and provided assistance in all wars against India, Afghan incursions were frustrated by these brave men. They also mobilised every time there was a stand-off between Pakistan and India.
 
You have lost a lot of credibility in my eyes, Joe Shearer, sad to see you post statements based on self-assumptions and biased Indian sources. Thought you were better, but it seems not.

Well, obviously. If Liaqat Ali Khan had left it at that, and not organised a clandestine, Army-staffed and Army-equipped raid, there would have been no insertion of Indian troops, there would have been no violence in the Vale, Leh and Kargil would have gone to Pakistan, and, sooner or later, the Maharaja would have listened to his Pandit counsellors, and acceded to Pakistan.

The stupidest thing that Pakistan could do, she did.
Pakistan invaded after 300,000 Kashmiri refugees escaping genocide came knocking on Pakistan's door crying out for help and revenge. These included my grandparents who saw over half of their family slaughtered by Dogra forces.

10 August 1948 report published in The Times:
"237,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated – unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border – by the forces of the Dogra State headed by the Maharaja in person and aided by Hindus and Sikhs. This happened in October 1947, five days before the Pathan invasion and nine days before the Maharaja’s accession to India."

o2y_4kzpQ5mye9mFeDeHzA.png


Pakistan would not sit idly by as this happened.

How do you know? You knew him personally? What is your reason for saying that? Just the fact that he exercised his sovereign rights and did not immediately accede to Pakistan? Or just on general principles, since he was a Hindu?
He is a tyrant descended from a lineage of tyrants. His dynasty was responsible for an extensive ethnic cleansing of the region's Muslims. He alone was responsible for killing hundreds of thousands.

Without contesting your principled stand, which I admire at the level of ideals without supporting the objectives, one matter of fact needs to be placed before you.

The raiders were not randomly assembled tribesmen carrying their own arms. They were demobbed ex-servicemen to whom were issued the surplus arms that came to Pakistan's share of the division of assets. It was not at all a spontaneous tribal uprising in defence of the faith; it was, as happened again and again and again in the future, a carefully planned action of the Pakistan Army, carried out under the noses of the British. I would like to think that they were unaware of what was going on under their noses, but the actions of Alexander Brown shows the protective and nurturing attitude of the British towards Pakistan.

The 'little empire game' was certainly being played, but on behalf of Pakistan and for her benefit.
You are very wrong. These tribes began to mobilise the moment Kashmiri refugees began to flood Pakistan. Sometimes the entire male population of a tribe was mobilised, these included children. Many Kashmiri refugees joined these lashkars and were crucial in guiding the Lashkars through various routes in Jammu and Kashmir.

Muslim clerics all around Pakistan, startled and angered by the stories brought by Kashmiris of brutality against Muslims, called for Jihad and revenge. These included many prominent clerics such as the Caliph of the Ahmadiyya community who authorized for the forming of a Ahmadiyya militia known as the Furqan force to help liberate Kashmir.
 
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So proud of my grandfather who was one of those who helped liberate Azad Kashmir. I will raise my next generations to finish the task my grandfather left half completed. InshAllah.

And thanks to the warriors from the Tribal areas. We are in your debt.
For the love of God, please don't. I'm begging you....

Next thing you know we will have a obituary thread on pdf, people will be commenting 'death to 7 lakh occupiers' and some moron is gonna have a pic of your dead kid as profile pic ..........and as usual when a terrorist gets killed, I'll be having a corona :cheers:
 
Yes Because They Started It.Indians Love To Tell Half The Story Why Don't They Talk About The Great Jammu Massacre Which Happened A Month Earlier In Which Hindu and Sikh Extremists Entered From Outside Massacred Around Half A Million Muslims

Its way too inconvenient for them to remember...

What was the death toll in the killing fields of Jammu? There are no official figures, so one has to go by reports in the British press of that period. Horace Alexander’s article on 16 January 1948 in The Spectator is much quoted; he put the number killed at 2,00,000. To quote a 10 August 1948 report published in The Times, London: ‘2,37,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated — unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border — by the forces of the Dogra state headed by the Maharaja in person and aided by the Sikhs. This happened in October 1947, five days before the Pathan invasion and nine days before the Maharaja’s accession to India.’

https://www.thequint.com/lifestyle/...forgotten-history-of-jammus-massacred-muslims
 
You have lost a lot of credibility in my eyes, Joe Shearer, sad to see you post statements based on self-assumptions and biased Indian sources. Thought you were better, but it seems not.


Pakistan invaded after 300,000 Kashmiri refugees escaping genocide came knocking on Pakistan's door crying out for help and revenge. These included my grandparents who saw over half of their family slaughtered by Dogra forces.

10 August 1948 report published in The Times:
"237,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated – unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border – by the forces of the Dogra State headed by the Maharaja in person and aided by Hindus and Sikhs. This happened in October 1947, five days before the Pathan invasion and nine days before the Maharaja’s accession to India."

o2y_4kzpQ5mye9mFeDeHzA.png


Pakistan would not sit idly by as this happened.


He is a tyrant descended from a lineage of tyrants. His dynasty was responsible for an extensive ethnic cleansing of the region's Muslims. He alone was responsible for killing hundreds of thousands.


You are very wrong. These tribes began to mobilise the moment Kashmiri refugees began to flood Pakistan. Sometimes the entire male population of a tribe was mobilised, these included children. Many Kashmiri refugees joined these lashkars and were crucial in guiding the Lashkars through various routes in Jammu and Kashmir.

Muslim clerics all around Pakistan, startled and angered by the stories brought by Kashmiris of brutality against Muslims, called for Jihad and revenge. These included many prominent clerics such as the Caliph of the Ahmadiyya community who authorized for the forming of a Ahmadiyya militia known as the Furqan force to help liberate Kashmir.

Sir,

I am not looking for credibility; it is too late in the day for me to tell any story other than what I have personally researched and verified, and I will not change under the threat of incurring the displeasure of somebody, however much I respect them and their views. My respect for you and most of your colleagues is immense; however, you will agree that for me to repeat something that I have not verified and not convinced myself about will be hypocrisy of the highest order. I hope it is not come about that at this late stage, you think me to be capable of such hypocrisy. Before you decide that I am fixed in my views and that these are based on one-sided and Indo-centric accounts, do yourself the favour of reading what I have to say specifically about the matters that you have mentioned.

There is not a single fact that I have mentioned based on what has been mysteriously described as 'self-assumption' or on Indian sources. Not one. Your inability to discriminate between parochial, self-serving writing and my documented account is not my problem at all.

The Violence in West Jammu

This is not unknown, and it was neither accidentally nor deliberately omitted from my account. I have also gone through Christopher Snedden's very useful account, and the tables that he prepared are familiar; if you have quoted them in your note, it would have been proper to mention the source. I am familiar with the figure of between 300,000 and 500,000 casualties or displacements of Muslim families living in that region, and with the accounts that they have preserved of the attacks on them and their settlements by local Dogras who were their neighbours and by Sikhs bent on taking revenge for the mass attacks in the Punjab.


The Lashkars and their composition, assembly and arming


Having said that, it is wrong both to infer that the tribals raids were directly inspired by the outrage and indignation that these occasioned, or to assume that these were spontaneous, as you have suggested in your note. My inferences are based on two sources over and above Snedden, Brigadier Akbar Khan's "Raiders in Kashmir", and Tariq Ali's account in his publications. Both have confirmed that it was sought to convert the standstill agreement into a compelled accession to Pakistan by the Maharaja, and towards this end, Akbar Khan and others were asked to organise demobilised ex-servicemen, arm them with surplus arms that had come to Pakistan's share, and provide them leadership from officers of the Pakistan Army who were to go on leave and serve this mission. This was against the backdrop of General Messervy's refusal to countenance the intervention of the formal Army in Jammu & Kashmir.

I regret that the picture of spontaneous mobilisation presented is not consistent with these sources, themselves Pakistanis in positions of authority or knowledgeable about the background of these events.

You have mentioned the mass mobilisation of entire tribes, and their support and guidance by Kashmiri Muslims that enabled them to approach the Maharaja's forces and attack them. On the other hand, it is clear from both the Pakistani accounts that I have cited that there was ONE group, that they were a coherent group with no outriders, no segments and no independently active contingents, that they reached Muzaffarabad as one group, that they were welcomed there by the newly formed representatives of the Government of Azad Kashmir (the government in question being located outside the state), and that they set out from there as one body for Srinagar by way of Baramula.

These two accounts cannot be reconciled. As long as I have printed accounts by Pakistani sources on the one hand, and anecdotal evidence based on oral history on the other hand, it is plain that in case of a difference between the two, which version must take precedence.

This obviously relates to the raid that went from Muzaffarabad through Baramula towards Srinagar. I have not dealt here in detail about the northern raid, led by a combined contingent of the Gilgit Scouts and the State Forces of the Mehtar of Chitral. It was that contingent, those two columns, that captured the greatest extent of territory before being driven out, including the whole of Gilgit, the whole of Baltistan, including Skardu and then Kargil, and finally Leh (which was besieged). Nothing that the raiders did came close to emulating these feats.

I have NOT taken my account from Indian sources; my sources are respectable and well-placed Pakistanis and their accounts. If you have alternative sources contradicting these, do feel free to produce them. You have not done that so far. I request that you should go through these two accounts before further comment on the matter. It seems from your note's contents that you are already familiar with Snedden, whether you choose to acknowledge him or not; a little extension of your reading will bring us onto the same page.

Lastly, it is a matter of some regret that some of us should assume that we are the sole repositories of the accounts of those days, or, for that matter, that the death and destruction that accompanied those events were confined to areas familiar to us alone. In case it has slipped the attention of Pakistani readers, there were as many deaths in the east; India is distinguished for its refugee rehabilitation programme in that 95% of funds allocated for refugee rehabilitation was devoted to the refugees from west Punjab, and 5% was spent on those fleeing east Pakistan. The minister in charge was, of course, a refugee himself, one from the west Punjab.

It was the Roman custom for candidates for election to stand in the Forum in candidates' togas, and to seek to win the votes of constituents by showing the wounds that they had won for their country in battle. I would rather not emulate that practice, and would rather keep my own family's personal tragedies outside this account, except to mention that I am a descendant of families that belonged to Dhaka and to Barisal, and now live in Hyderabad, and confine myself to the written fact, and to well-documented accounts exclusively from Pakistani sources.
 
@Joe Shearer,

Dada,

When Pakistani tribal warriors invaded Kashmir, and failed to capture the capital because they stopped to rape and kill those they had come to rescue from the Hindus.

Thanks for raising my favourite incident from this chaotic episode in our history. Had they not wasted time in rape and plunder at Baramullah- one particular ghastly incident being the mass rape of nuns at the Convent there- they would have captured the Srinagar airport before the Indian Army landed there and India's participation in Kashmir wud have been stillborn. As it was the mujahideen ended up at Srinagar barely a few hours after the IA had secured the airport.

That brings us to the next point- our defence strategy for future wars. Dont you think the money that is wasted on purchasing Rafales et al could be better deployed on building convents on both sides of the GT Road from Wagah to Panipat?

Regards
 

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