Panorama of Officers in Indian and Pakistan Army

[notorious_eagle]

I had a lot of respect for that man Kiyani. No More!

I have mixed feelings about the dude.

He is a thorough professional, a very competent officer no doubt. He has done a lot of good for the army; mechanization, tougher physical standards, reduced a lot of the fat, promotions based on strict merit, improvement in the officer and NCO core, and the newfound synergy achieved with PAF. He has initiated several schemes for the welfare and benefit of the Jawans and Officers. As a military professional, i have no doubts about his capabilities. He has improved PA by leaps and bounds since taking over, just look at the mobilization of PA during Azm e Nau. That exercise single handedly ended the so called Cold Start Doctrine by proving that there is no way IA can mobilize faster than PA.

But that being said, he did abuse his position and enriched himself, after all who does not like money.

 

[Jango]

Off course his brothers are involved. About 10 years ago one had a Honda City and the other had an Alto, now they both roam around in bullet proof Land Cruisers tailed by Vigo's. The story goes something like this; DHA gave the contract to his brothers to provide them with land, they were so incompetent that they couldn't even achieve that task and were on the verge of getting blacklisted by DHA. This is where Riaz stepped in, he asked them to subcontract this deal to him. He asked them what their expected profit was, they gave him a number and he paid them cash straight up even before the work began. He finished the project in record time, made more money than the brothers had calculated, Riaz gave them a share from the surplus profits.

So that's the whole story of the brothers and Malik Riaz, I never quite got the exact reason of them being close and contracts given!

 

[SQ8]

I would respectfully disagree with this point

The 2 stars, 3 stars or even the 4 star that i have come across with, i have found them to be thorough professionals and damn good at their jobs. Khalid Nawaz, Rabbani, Khattak Nadeem Gillani, Rashad Mahmood are as competent as they get. You need to have a spotless career of 30-35 years to even be considered for the position of a 2 star officer.

Up till the Brigadier level things are on merit.. and that is generally the rule and will testify to that.
What after though.. since the gentlemen you have mentioned are excellent officers..but are they on the rule or the exception to the rule. After all, part of the ratings also involve assessing the officers PR skills.

I have mixed feelings about the dude.

He is a thorough professional, a very competent officer no doubt. He has done a lot of good for the army; mechanization, tougher physical standards, reduced a lot of the fat, promotions based on strict merit, improvement in the officer and NCO core, and the newfound synergy achieved with PAF. He has initiated several schemes for the welfare and benefit of the Jawans and Officers. As a military professional, i have no doubts about his capabilities. He has improved PA by leaps and bounds since taking over, just look at the mobilization of PA during Azm e Nau. That exercise single handedly ended the so called Cold Start Doctrine by proving that there is no way IA can mobilize faster than PA.

But that being said, he did abuse his position and enriched himself, after all who does not like money.

Perhaps he is inspired by Malik Riaz.. be corrupt but do some good as well.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Up till the Brigadier level things are on merit.. and that is generally the rule and will testify to that.
What after though.. since the gentlemen you have mentioned are excellent officers..but are they on the rule or the exception to the rule. After all, part of the ratings also involve assessing the officers PR skills.

I am not going to lie, their is favouritism no doubt but as you said, brilliant officers have already been streamlined and only their names appear on the Promotion Board List. The Army is still the only institution in Pakistan where promotion largely based on merit unlike our esteemed civilian organizations.

Perhaps he is inspired by Malik Riaz.. be corrupt but do some good as well.

Hahahaha Tushayy my friend. As much as i hate Malik Riaz, i have to admit that he has done a lot of work for charity.

 

[Pfpilot]

I have mixed feelings about the dude.

He is a thorough professional, a very competent officer no doubt. He has done a lot of good for the army; mechanization, tougher physical standards, reduced a lot of the fat, promotions based on strict merit, improvement in the officer and NCO core, and the newfound synergy achieved with PAF. He has initiated several schemes for the welfare and benefit of the Jawans and Officers. As a military professional, i have no doubts about his capabilities. He has improved PA by leaps and bounds since taking over, just look at the mobilization of PA during Azm e Nau. That exercise single handedly ended the so called Cold Start Doctrine by proving that there is no way IA can mobilize faster than PA.

But that being said, he did abuse his position and enriched himself, after all who does not like money.

With all due respect, I'd disagree with your conclusion. Kayani may truly be responsible for great things within the military; you are far better placed to comment on that then myself, so I will gladly concede that point. What irks me is that while the General was doing good for the military, he was simultaneously causing harm to the general economy. Nepotism in Pakistan has caused inefficient distribution of public funds to those incapable of providing the proper return on the investment. A nation where the economy is spluttering towards the edge of a cliff that many Pakistanis simply refuse to see, the outlay of relatively large sums of money to private contractors is a necessity. The private sector is dying as a lack of infrastructure has left most companies unable to compete globally. That leaves a domestic market where one of the largest stakeholders is the Army.

So while the likes of Kayani have done good for the military, they have done so at the expense of the larger nation. I'd like to make the potentially exaggerated assumption: that no amount of armed forces integration can make up for the economic damage from the billions of much needed dollars that are circulating within the corridors of the HQs of the political parties and the army. It is a death knell for nation where people die daily from everything from starvation to pure lawlessness, that a large chunk of money that belongs to the Pakistani public is squandered.

As is the case with Malik Riaz, I have always found the charitable side of Pakistani elite to be hypocritical at best and criminal at worst. If one steals 10 dollars from someone and then distributes 4 dollars in charity, the nation as a whole just lost 6 dollars to a twisted form of income redistribution. Incompetence, in the case of Zardari, is a far more reasonable excuse for the failure of Pakistan. When the likes of highly educated and well traveled 4 star Generals rob the nation dry, it makes one wonder if they value the institution of the Armed Forces above Pakistan itself. I say this not as a proclamation of fact, as I may be as woefully wrong as those who believed the earth was flat, but the evidence has increasingly mounted against our ruling elites and the stink from the corruption has become harder and harder to ignore.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Gen Kiyani is the most disgusting serving army general that pakistan has ever had. In his tenure pakistan's image has been smashed beyond any redemption in the world forum.

Never in the history has ever a nation's commander in chief's silence, caused the demise of relationship of two allies. This coward kept his mouth shut when his counterpart was smashing pakistan to kingdom come.

 

[notorious_eagle]

With all due respect, I'd disagree with your conclusion.

Sir

Let me just state for the record that my conclusion was me being sarcastic, i apologize as i should have been more precise.

I completely agree with whatever you have said, there is not a single thing that i can disagree with. It is corruption that is holding Pakistan back from exploding and becoming an economic powerhouse. Lawlessness, energy crisis, inflation, economic crunch, lack of justice all have their roots in corruption. To root the corruption out, we need to stop pointing the finger at the Army which is still the most respected institution in Pakistan and start looking at our political leaders. You talked about lack of infrastructure; every wondered why despite being allocated billions of rupees for infrastructure development to MNA's and MPA's, there is nothing tangible to show for that money. Unless the political system is not overhauled, Pakistan cannot progress. BOTTOM LINE

Hi,

Gen Kiyani is the most disgusting serving army general that pakistan has ever had. In his tenure pakistan's image has been smashed beyond any redemption in the world forum.

Never in the history has ever a nation's commander in chief's silence, caused the demise of relationship of two allies. This coward kept his mouth shut when his counterpart was smashing pakistan to kingdom come.

He is a shy fellow, he does not like media attention. This is why he has never given an interview to the media. And yes i agree with you, he should have given out his point of view to the media after American bashing. If not his, there was nothing stopping him from sending the DG ISPR to every media outlet and giving out interviews.

 

[SQ8]

He is a shy fellow, he does not like media attention. This is why he has never given an interview to the media. And yes i agree with you, he should have given out his point of view to the media after American bashing. If not his, there was nothing stopping him from sending the DG ISPR to every media outlet and giving out interviews.

That cannot determine responses in the time of crises.
Fact is, that he let the government take the hits for May 2 and Salala..and has in a way confirmed the "daal mein kuch(ya kafi kuch) kaala hai" view about our establishment.

 

[Jango]

That cannot determine responses in the time of crises.
Fact is, that he let the government take the hits for May 2 and Salala..and has in a way confirmed the "daal mein kuch(ya kafi kuch) kaala hai" view about our establishment.

I personally think that it was to portray a image that the govt. is the big authority, and so let it take the bold face. And that army is just under the govt.

 

[SQ8]

I personally think that it was to portray a image that the govt. is the big authority, and so let it take the bold face. And that army is just under the govt.

Internationally it would make sense, even nationally.. IF the government was actually briefed or given answers.
The bumbling fools in the PPP govt had nothing to talk about. So answers from either left a lot of doubts.

 

[Jango]

Internationally it would make sense, even nationally.. IF the government was actually briefed or given answers.

You know very well how it works in this country. The Defence minister said he was briefed by PAF (kamra incident)....we all know how it was!

Govt. doesn't really care too much about it, let alone the defence minister, especially the ex minister, Ahmed Mukhtar. Army does not bother much, so both are happy!!!

The bumbling fools in the PPP govt had nothing to talk about. So answers from either left a lot of doubts.

We all know Gilanis statement after the OBL raid!!!

It indeed is a sorry state of affairs.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Well the bottomline is that pakistan's image got smashed on Kiyani's watch---smashed like never before ---be it the govt or pak military---it was Kiyani's counter part who bashed pakistan---. So it was Kiyani's job to respond---manto man---general to general---.

No quiet man should ever be a general and commander in chief of the pak military ever---a general should always speak his mind---the enemy should know what to expect and so should his countrymen and the military---.

In this day and age---quite men always fail those who are dependant on them---. Quiet men will always hide behind their quietness and say----hey you knew I did not have an opinion about this item---yet you made me your leader---it is your fault---otoh---a man who speak his mind---you can always question him for what stands for---.

 

[Joe Shearer]

A fascinating discussion, and if only lips could be unsealed.....

I had thought that the thread would turn out differently, looking at how the character of the officer class has changed over time, from feudals and trophy candidates to professionals and fauji brats. That is what seems to be happening in India. Where are the dark patches coming from? The disconnect between pol and service professional, which leads the frustrated pro to dabble in the muck on the basis of "If you can't beat them, join them!" also the formation of cliques within the Army (not so much the other two services).

Once again, sadly again, 'O tempora...'

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hi,

Well the bottomline is that pakistan's image got smashed on Kiyani's watch---smashed like never before ---be it the govt or pak military---it was Kiyani's counter part who bashed pakistan---. So it was Kiyani's job to respond---manto man---general to general---.

No quiet man should ever be a general and commander in chief of the pak military ever---a general should always speak his mind---the enemy should know what to expect and so should his countrymen and the military---.

In this day and age---quite men always fail those who are dependant on them---. Quiet men will always hide behind their quietness and say----hey you knew I did not have an opinion about this item---yet you made me your leader---it is your fault---otoh---a man who speak his mind---you can always question him for what stands for---.

Interesting thought.

Do we know of other 'quiet' generals who did not do as well as they might have? Wavell comes to mind, straightaway; whether Churchill was quite fair in his treatment or not, Wavell was not very effective against Rommel. I wonder if others have other instances.

 

[MastanKhan]

Interesting thought.

Do we know of other 'quiet' generals who did not do as well as they might have? Wavell comes to mind, straightaway; whether Churchill was quite fair in his treatment or not, Wavell was not very effective against Rommel. I wonder if others have other instances.

Hi,

Gen Schwarzkopf was a living terror---Patton was outspoken------current general---Petraeus did a number on Kiyani and left him staggering---Tommy Franks---John Abizaid----none of the american generals were known as quiet men---.

What I am saying is that you don't have to be barking at every tree----but to be known as a "QUIET MAN"---that qualification should be an immediate disqualification for any job above the rank of a colonel---.