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Panama Case - Post Verdict Discussion and Updates

These members of Kings Party as I call them will switch if and when they know/believe who is going to make the next Govt., let me repeat it again, these members will join PTI, PPP, PMLQ, PMLN,MQM, ANP, PKAMP, JUIF or even MML if they believe that next Govt., will be of that party.

PTI, PMLN, PPP and in parts MQM has discussed threadbare all legal, political and back door channels possibilities way before we discussed it here. Rest assured; it (PTI) might look childish to you due to IK’s speeches in jalsas it is not a naive party.

You tell me:

1. Was PMLN less or more vulnerable 30 days ago?

2. Appeals and movement against PMLN would have been less or more powerful as each day passes or 30 days ago?

3. Appeals in Judiciary made more sense 30 days ago or as now or in another months time.

4. Why PPP is treated differently than PMLN is known to every one and have been discussed even here millions of times- so I won’t go in that again.

5. There are six months for Accountability/NAB Court, please disassociate it with SCP; if any movement started 30 days ago; it’s target HAD to be SCP not Accountability Court, after giving it reasonable time, the obvious target would be much lower court plus new NAB Chairman.

I can go in way more detail than this; but I will not due to the fact that I would like to keep it undisclosed for PTi’s sake the strategy we have. I apologize for my inability to do so- hope you’ll understand!
. Ik has given a lot of indications about his strategy and it is apparent and i think this time he is playing the game in a more experienced and professional way.. right move at the right time needed should be the motto
 
Jabhi aap har qisam ke martial law ke khilaaf hain! abb samajh aaya..



Halaat aaesay hain k lawlessness ko hee law qubool karna par raha haay aur Martial law ka koi imkaan nahee hay. As per DG ISPR "jamhoriat ko Fauj sa koi khatra nahee hay - Jamhoriat ko jamhori taqazay poray na karnay sa khatra ho sakta hay".

I Don't expect any activism from SCP either, jamhori taqazay bay shak jitnay marzi khatray maen hon.

Entities and stakeholders who are showing exemplary calm and restraint or remain docile and inactive are either actually in control but are totally inept at handling the political challenge thrown by PMLN as of now. All this shall change with the proceedings in court as legally PMLN is doomed in due time.

I standby what I said about PTI 's un-cohesive and inept response to PMLN both politically and legally after the verdict.

I expect all of us here to continue to fret about current affairs and judicial proceedings but unless the stake holders have a change of heart or brains, it is status quo as usual and nothing is changing anytime soon and Pakistan as it is, shall continue to go no where fast until the next elections arrive or PMLN commits suicide before its natural death.
 
These members of Kings Party as I call them will switch if and when they know/believe who is going to make the next Govt., let me repeat it again, these members will join PTI, PPP, PMLQ, PMLN,MQM, ANP, PKAMP, JUIF or even MML if they believe that next Govt., will be of that party.

PTI, PMLN, PPP and in parts MQM has discussed threadbare all legal, political and back door channels possibilities way before we discussed it here. Rest assured; it (PTI) might look childish to you due to IK’s speeches in jalsas it is not a naive party.

You tell me:

1. Was PMLN less or more vulnerable 30 days ago?

2. Appeals and movement against PMLN would have been less or more powerful as each day passes or 30 days ago?

3. Appeals in Judiciary made more sense 30 days ago or as now or in another months time.

4. Why PPP is treated differently than PMLN is known to every one and have been discussed even here millions of times- so I won’t go in that again.

5. There are six months for Accountability/NAB Court, please disassociate it with SCP; if any movement started 30 days ago; it’s target HAD to be SCP not Accountability Court, after giving it reasonable time, the obvious target would be much lower court plus new NAB Chairman.

I can go in way more detail than this; but I will not due to the fact that I would like to keep it undisclosed for PTi’s sake the strategy we have. I apologize for my inability to do so- hope you’ll understand!

Thank you for your reply as always. You already know that my criticism of PTI is never about abuse but my bemusement at some policies I find hard to digest.

Politics is basically about struggle and it seems that after dharna, the struggle part has taken the back seat and we see more laid back and relaxed politics from PTI that is wrongfully looked at as a sign of political maturity. I am more in favour of a middle ground politics where continuous struggle (rallys, demonstrations, jalsas and negotiations) is the correct approach and not the extremes of extended dharnas earlier or drawing room politics of today.

1. PMLN was never more vulnerable in its history than it was right after the DQ verdict. No political struggle to gain more ground from PTI but just a Jalsa in Islamabad. I can go on but everyone knows how PMLN got back up and created a narrative since.

2 and 3.Review by PTI (Appeal?) would have resulted in more comments and explanations by judges and nailed pmln even further. Hence, an automatic counter narrative instead of "judges meant this and that, verdict means this and that". It was worth it even if PTI's review had been rejected like PMLNs but it had a strong chance to nail them further on forged docs and perjury, making the verdict stronger. Otherwise, the judges comments and explanations alone would have been the ominous bonus worth in gold.

Points 4 and 5 I agree with you already but PTI's movement would never have been considered against SCP.
 
. Ik has given a lot of indications about his strategy and it is apparent and i think this time he is playing the game in a more experienced and professional way.. right move at the right time needed should be the motto

Timing - all in good time, IK is way more concerned than all of us put together, how much he has put in line in this struggle for what, not any personal gains as we all know.

He has listened to many of us, I mentioned convention they held (a month and half ago) where younger lot was asked to give presentations in Marriot - couple of them were invited to another meeting.

I am satisfied 100% with the strategy as I am aware of the major steps, strategy and counter strategy for most move they (Nawaz) can potentially make- this time; it’s pure strategic politics that PTI is playing vis a vis status quo. Again, I would stress on the word Timing, it’s all about Timing.

Nawaz in short is in a situation where even standing still is not helping nor moving backward is an option now; it’s due to the fact that next gen (Maryam) can’t play defensive and older gen (Nawaz) can’t play aggressive in this situation - so whichever way they play they dig hole deeper for them.


Yes, that’s true - he has changed a lot from 2014 to 2017. He has come to terms with the certain facts that he knows he has to play around to reach his target. Let’s put it this way he is more suave politician now.

I will share couple of stances he revised based on feedback and suggestions once this is over - not sharing it before that for obvious reasons.

What kind of pressure he could put on Sharif when they are crumbling in normal course of proceedings and are left with no other option than to attack Army and Judiciary - this in self has widened the gap between hawks and doves within PMLN - had he stood with SCP and Army obviously PDO would have have painted him as stooge of both allowing all three to be under pressure for no reason. In politics you strike when the opponent is at his / her weakest state; with argument and counter argument from Army - Nawaz has weakened himself hundreds of times more and to offer itself (PTI) voluntarily as a punching bag in this situation would have been best situation for PMLN.

@Islam is hope as in Sh Rasheed has recently started saying that both Shahbaz and Nisar has missed the train of hijacking PMLN now; you'd think Sh Rasheed is saying what's he is honestly feels, I don't think so. He is feeding the borderline proponents of that division that there are options within the party, it is more to damage Nawaz than damage Shahbaz and Nisar, but on the face of it seems at attack on Shahbaz and Nisar.

However, if you digress his above statement; you'd see Nisar knew that he doesn't have that kind of appeal to challenge Nawaz, so if he had pared ways before July 28th, 2017 he would have only handful of MNA's with him; if that. His best option was to stay put even coexist in the party with his sworn enemies like Kh Asif & Ahsan Iqbal as he knows that if he stays put and Nawaz and Maryam discredits themselves even more; who would the birds sitting on the fence would favour for party leadership? He is way better off; staying in than walking out. He has spent 40 years in the party and it's in his best interest to enjoy already cooked dish; rather than go in new direction and start from scratch. Had he been 25 years old; he would have done it - even then maybe not!

He is pretty much doing the same what Nawaz did to both; Mohammad Khan Junejo and Mustafa Jatoi; although Hamid Nasir Chattha at one time tried to do that; but unfortunately he didn't get any bets by Aslam Beg; as BB was too big of a leader to be countered by Chattha alone......

Long story short - all in good time, and I am content with how things are planned for most known moves that Sharif can potentially take :)

———

@Shane - :) I won’t go in any more detail against your arguments - as if I go in, then I have to give details of strategy which I won’t. My apologies for not replying to your reply in more detail!
 
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Timing - all in good time, IK is way more concerned than all of us put together, how much he has put in line in this struggle for what, not any personal gains as we all know.

He has listened to many of us, I mentioned convention they held (a month and half ago) where younger lot was asked to give presentations in Marriot - couple of them were invited to another meeting.

I am satisfied 100% with the strategy as I am aware of the major steps, strategy and counter strategy for most move they (Nawaz) can potentially make- this time; it’s pure strategic politics that PTI is playing vis a vis status quo. Again, I would stress on the word Timing, it’s all about Timing.

Nawaz in short is in a situation where even standing still is not helping nor moving backward is an option now; it’s due to the fact that next gen (Maryam) can’t play defensive and older gen (Nawaz) can’t play aggressive in this situation - so whichever way they play they dig hole deeper for them.


Yes, that’s true - he has changed a lot from 2014 to 2017. He has come to terms with the certain facts that he knows he has to play around to reach his target. Let’s put it this way he is more suave politician now.

I will share couple of stances he revised based on feedback and suggestions once this is over - not sharing it before that for obvious reasons.

What kind of pressure he could put on Sharif when they are crumbling in normal course of proceedings and are left with no other option than to attack Army and Judiciary - this in self has widened the gap between hawks and doves within PMLN - had he stood with SCP and Army obviously PDO would have have painted him as stooge of both allowing all three to be under pressure for no reason. In politics you strike when the opponent is at his / her weakest state; with argument and counter argument from Army - Nawaz has weakened himself hundreds of times more and to offer itself (PTI) voluntarily as a punching bag in this situation would have been best situation for PMLN.

@Islam is hope as in Sh Rasheed has recently started saying that both Shahbaz and Nisar has missed the train of hijacking PMLN now; you'd think Sh Rasheed is saying what's he is honestly feels, I don't think so. He is feeding the borderline proponents of that division that there are options within the party, it is more to damage Nawaz than damage Shahbaz and Nisar, but on the face of it seems at attack on Shahbaz and Nisar.

However, if you digress his above statement; you'd see Nisar knew that he doesn't have that kind of appeal to challenge Nawaz, so if he had pared ways before July 28th, 2017 he would have only handful of MNA's with him; if that. His best option was to stay put even coexist in the party with his sworn enemies like Kh Asif & Ahsan Iqbal as he knows that if he stays put and Nawaz and Maryam discredits themselves even more; who would the birds sitting on the fence would favour for party leadership? He is way better off; staying in than walking out. He has spent 40 years in the party and it's in his best interest to enjoy already cooked dish; rather than go in new direction and start from scratch. Had he been 25 years old; he would have done it - even then maybe not!

He is pretty much doing the same what Nawaz did to both; Mohammad Khan Junejo and Mustafa Jatoi; although Hamid Nasir Chattha at one time tried to do that; but unfortunately he didn't get any bets by Aslam Beg; as BB was too big of a leader to be countered by Chattha alone......

Long story short - all in good time, and I am content with how things are planned for most known moves that Sharif can potentially take :)

———

@Shane - :) I won’t go in any more detail against your arguments - as if I go in, then I have to give details of strategy which I won’t. My apologies for not replying to your reply in more detail!
Wonderfully put.. yes timing is the key now.. the vaccum created by this severe blow to pmln will be filled eventually.. but they should fight it on the legal front a bit more aggressively..nisar wont leave . He has developed an unbreakablly mutualistic relationship with pmln which is too rewarding to leave.
 
:) I won’t go in any more detail against your arguments - as if I go in, then I have to give details of strategy which I won’t. My apologies for not repl

I completely understand your pov regarding non disclosure of information which may give away the political strategy being kept secret.

I have always repeated my disappointment on the "earlier" strategy of wait and watch(not the current as I am not privy to it or if it is any different) on its merits that inactivity (political or legal) amounts to political or legal surrender on current issues specially when the opponents are practically trying to gain political space on the same.

Theoretically speaking, Political space is earned on the ground through sustained struggle and is never sustainable in the long run on assurances or understandings or relying on just reacting while giving away open space for political activity to opponents. Thank God that their opponents are twice as inept PMLN.

What if PMLN calls PTIs bluff and the assemblies are dissolved now with the understanding of Zardari? Same old ECP, same old caretakers, same old ROs. Same old political turmoil.

Article 187 and 190 might not be the answer as PMLN and PPP lawyers in numbers are not going to be sitting idle at the whiff of such a possibility of technocrat govt.

So we are back to square one. Let's wait and watch out and pray for an opportunity. It looks like a disaster is in the making. May Allah Subhan Taala have mercy on Pakistan.
 
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Wonderfully put.. yes timing is the key now.. the vaccum created by this severe blow to pmln will be filled eventually.. but they should fight it on the legal front a bit more aggressively..nisar wont leave . He has developed an unbreakablly mutualistic relationship with pmln which is too rewarding to leave.

Nisar never wanted to leave, he wants to hijack due to only option left - maybe ......when Kh Asif and Ahsan also gets Iqama-fried ;)

I completely understand your pov regarding non disclosure of information which may give away the political strategy being kept secret.

I have always repeated my disappointment on the "earlier" strategy of wait and watch(not the current as I am not privy to it or if it is any different) on its merits that inactivity (political or legal) amounts to political or legal surrender on current issues specially when the opponents are practically trying to gain political space on the same.

Theoretically speaking, Political space is earned on the ground through sustained struggle and is never sustainable in the long run on assurances or understandings or relying on just reacting while giving away open space for political activity to opponents. Thank God that their opponents are twice as inept PMLN.

What if PMLN calls PTIs bluff and the assemblies are dissolved now with the understanding of Zardari? Same old ECP, same old caretakers, same old ROs. Same old political turmoil.

Article 187 and 190 might not be the answer as PMLN and PPP lawyers in numbers are not going to be sitting idle at the whiff of such a possibility of technocrat govt.

So we are back to square one. Let's wait and watch out and pray for an opportunity. It looks like a disaster is in the making. May Allah Subhan Taala have mercy on Pakistan.

Dissolution of assemblies is on the cards as last resort to pull the stalling chain, and I have been posting re this for some time now.

Legal battle if started one month earlier would have solidified perception (through PDO and pseudo liberals like Benazir and Asma types as well) that Nawaz is creating by painting PTI, SCP and PA as allies against Nawaz.

Plan was never to let Nawaz have space; but let him damage his cause even further that’s why I stated that if active campaign started one month before then PTI would have helped solidify the perception of joint operation thus it had to ward off that perception and then rebuild its attack strategy and they don’t have 2 years now to have both for those strategies.

Nawaz played into the hands when he put Maryam in and now there is zillion stances of PMLN on each issue. In politics you can’t sustain with the strategy now PMLN is forced into because they couldn’t find one single target in absence of PTI’s relative quietness.

Right time of startin public mobilization in support of SCP and Army could have been effective once Nawaz has shown all of his cards; which he has now - almost. Given the situation now; the eventual start will be pushed forward as whatever they could fire is out in open (most of it anyway).

Dissolution is last option and I believe he will have to go that route or else; get even more discredited with each passing day.

Simplistically put; Nawaz had way more options on July 28th as compared to today, and all options he has squandered are due to his own actions. He has taken himself into an alley which ends at a high altitude cliff, just because he has ego issues and best massage therapists of his ego are on elected members these days; Maryam, Parvez, Mushahidullah, Fawad Hassan, Kirmani types.
 
Not a girl but a paid baboon leagi chutiya pretending to be a girl and Qatari shezadi encouraging her paltu suars is no surprise here

Another Murtaza Ali Shah (Geo) doing Sarah Jawad Khan - they are still living in legacy of Hussain Haqqani when he started this impersonating trend to do character assasination of Benazir Bhutto in 1980’s.
 
Another Murtaza Ali Shah (Geo) doing Sarah Jawad Khan - they are still living in legacy of Hussain Haqqani when he started this impersonating trend to do character assasination of Benazir Bhutto in 1980’s.
These pmln phsycopaths are the most miserable creatures on earth.. just horrible to see the extent to which out society has has been corrupted.
 
He has taken himself into an alley which ends at a high altitude cliff.

We all know that, when in the past has he not done the same. Touché.

I so hope that I am wrong and PTI carves out a better way forward due to its well thought out policy instead of us ending up with whichever way the political turmoil takes us by force of unfolding events or PMLNs choices.
 
Why is it that when Dr. Asim or other PPP allied accused are presented in courts in Karachi, PPP Govt can't even touch them inside armoured personal carriers let alone accompany them or bring them in processions like PMLN is being allowed?

Cuz they were not being raised by establishment, ladlay nahi hain woh sotailay hain.

???

Expand please..

dc = Dangerous Chowkidaar
gc = Ganda Chowkidaar
fc = Faltu Chowkidaar :bunny:
 
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