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Pak's intrusions on borders triggered 1965 war: Durrani

This is a good sign, the voice of moderate and democractic pakistanis is being heard more.!!! This is a sign that pakistan is moving toward the right destination. Accepting ones mistake, and formulating a policy learning from their mistakes. I think if we have more patriotic and sensible people like the durani we will defnitely be in a level ground.
 
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A note of caution. The links provided are from the Indian media. We don't consider the Indian press to be a neutral or credible source of information in regards to Pakistan. They've displayed their shocking and shameless tendencies to distort facts and words as per their instinctive and venomous anti-Pakistani bias. So a neutral or a Pakistani source will be required in this case for the supposed 'admission' to be given credence.

It is a well known fact that Pakistan trained irregulars and inserted them into Indian occupied Kashmir once it was clear that India had retracted from her previous commitments and unilaterally annexed the Disputed Territory. The heavy fighting started once Indian forces tried to invade Pakistan across the IB. So even if a retired Pakistani general mentioned it, as others have in the past, its hardly a reason for the Indian media to act all vindicated. Quite childish of them actually.
 
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A note of caution. The links provided are from the Indian media. We don't consider the Indian press to be a neutral or credible source of information in regards to Pakistan. They've displayed their shocking and shameless tendencies to distort facts and words as per their instinctive and venomous anti-Pakistani bias. So a neutral or a Pakistani source will be required in this case for the supposed 'admission' to be given credence.

It is a well known fact that Pakistan trained irregulars and inserted them into Indian occupied Kashmir once it was clear that India had retracted from her previous commitments and unilaterally annexed the Disputed Territory. The heavy fighting started once Indian forces tried to invade Pakistan across the IB. So even if a retired Pakistani general mentioned it, as others have in the past, its hardly a reason for the Indian media to act all vindicated. Quite childish of them actually.

Yes you may be right even to a percentage level of 100. But i think we are never looking at it literally, but to an intend that has been highlighted which should give a positive image to your country irrespective of the FACT. Even if it is true or wrong, i think such comments highlights the very good intentions of the people of your country.
 
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Maybe you are reading too much into this. It is most probably just a casual acknowledgment more than anything else, and even then the general holds no official import now. In trying to imply that the Pakistani people are deluded or brainwashed and that this instance (if accurate) is a big exception you're very mistaken. The Pakistani people and their understanding of our history is very politically mature and diverse. This sort of thing is nothing, in fact an acknowledgment from India in line with yours in the previous post would be a much more interesting and rare development for me.
 
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The question is, are you sure its going to be a conventional war? Lets not forget that both sides are nuclear armed. And we're actually a step ahead of our counterparts as far as Nuclear Weapons Delivery systems are concerned.
a nuke tipped missile as long as doesnt fall backwards is accurate enough.
 
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a nuke tipped missile as long as doesnt fall backwards is accurate enough.

:lol::lol: but sadly in our situation --> India and Pakistan, paritosh my Bro, that is higly untrue!!

Tactical Nuclear strikes (meaning low yield target specific missile / bomb strikes ) also have a disastrous fallout, and I am not even talking about our desi (Pak / India) nuclear weapons, which have an un-planned and large fallout of radiation.

Once something like that is fired from either of the two sides, both are gonna suffer in terms of human lives, that too in the hundreds of thousands!! it is gonna be the largest most bloodiest suicides of all times

The only sane choice in the use of Nuclear Weapons is:

Do no use them or at least, try your best to avoid them !!
 
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a nuke tipped missile as long as doesnt fall backwards is accurate enough.

Its not just the missile. Its also the yield and size of the warhead, which in turn constitutes the sheer scale of death and destruction caused. It also negates chances of intercept and malfunction.
 
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The question is, are you sure its going to be a conventional war? Lets not forget that both sides are nuclear armed.

So why did Mushie not consider this before embarking on the Kargil war? If it hadn't resolved in 2 months, all out war would have been the only option left for India. Or maybe the brilliant strategic assumption was that Indians would tire of it and retreat. [/QUOTE]

And we're actually a step ahead of our counterparts as far as Nuclear Weapons Delivery systems are concerned.

How certain are you about Pakistan's ability to:
1. Launch atleast ten times the number of nuclear warheads that you currently possess(20 * 10 Kt required for Delhi alone) with 100% success rate and with 100% accuracy, simultaneously to overwhelm 2nd strike response(Why else would you launch first??).
2. Prepare for (1) with complete secrecy. Totally catch the entire world by surprise.
3. Ally with China after dropping nukes around it's neighbourhood.
4. Continue to live off aid after the complete success of (1), (2) and (3).

How certain are you about India's inability to:
1. Strike second.
2. Strike first.
3. Conventionally overwhelm Pakistan's armed forces.
4. Conventionally neutralize a small percentage of your nukes before they are launched.
5. Intercept at least some ballistic missiles.
6. Ally with US, Israel to dramatically increase the effectiveness of (4),(5).
7. Test/deploy thermonuclear weapons in a short order.


I think you're assumption is flawed when you say that in case of a convetional/Nuclear war, India wouldn't be on the losing edge. There's a reason why Pakistan maintains a first-strike capability.

You do not trust India on anything. Of course, when it comes to India's NFU doctrine, you are willing to bet the future of your country on India's adherence to it.
If India detects an imminent nuke attack, you think they will just let it fall? I don't know. I am honestly seeking an opinion.
 
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Its not just the missile. Its also the yield and size of the warhead, which in turn constitutes the sheer scale of death and destruction caused. It also negates chances of intercept and malfunction.

What are the number of warheads pakistan has and what are their yields?May I know?
 
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Its not just the missile. Its also the yield and size of the warhead, which in turn constitutes the sheer scale of death and destruction caused. It also negates chances of intercept and malfunction.

a first strike by either Pakistan or India would be brutal and not confined by scale.You wouldn't want the other country to have the resources left to launch a second strike.I was watching a Pakistani minister giving an interview on Capital Talk a year back telling the world about a list of potential targets in India in the time of a nuclear strike.
 
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:lol::lol: but sadly in our situation --> India and Pakistan, paritosh my Bro, that is higly untrue!!

Tactical Nuclear strikes (meaning low yield target specific missile / bomb strikes ) also have a disastrous fallout, and I am not even talking about our desi (Pak / India) nuclear weapons, which have an un-planned and large fallout of radiation.

Once something like that is fired from either of the two sides, both are gonna suffer in terms of human lives, that too in the hundreds of thousands!! it is gonna be the largest most bloodiest suicides of all times

The only sane choice in the use of Nuclear Weapons is:

Do no use them or at least, try your best to avoid them !!

yesss borther....I am just too lazy to dig up a trench in my backyard.
 
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War blunders in 1965

Incensed by India’s intransigent attitude towards Kashmir and encouraged by victory in the Rann of Kutch, Field Marshal Ayub Khan felt that the time was ripe to wrest Kashmir from India. He planned to do this in two phases.

In the first phase, the Muslim population in occupied Kashmir would be incited to rise in revolt by infiltrators. In the second, the army would deliver the knockout blow by severing at Aknur the line of communication serving the Indian forces south of the Pir Panjal range — although Maj Gen Akhtar Malik planned the exploit towards Jammu to sever the road link to the valley.

In the first week of Aug 1965, 5,000 lightly armed men slipped across the ceasefire line. They were hastily trained civilians with a sprinkling of regular soldiers. They were the Gibraltar Force. While the surprise lasted, they conducted a series of spectacular raids and ambushes. Then the expected happened. Indian retribution against Muslim villages was swift and brutal.

As a result, the locals not only refused to cooperate with the raiders but also started assisting the Indian forces to flush them out. To make matters worse, Indian forces started capturing critical areas in Azad Kashmir and threatening Muzaffarabad. With its fate sealed, the Gibraltar Force disintegrated. Phase 1 of the plan had backfired. In order to release the pressure being applied on Azad Kashmir, the next phase was launched.

In the early hours of Sept 1, 1965, the sudden thunder of 100 artillery guns stunned the Indian troops in Chhamb and heralded the opening of Operation Grand Slam. As Pakistani armoured forces advanced rapidly towards Aknur the Indian defences crumbled and their troops fled in disarray. Instead of exploiting this, the operation was suddenly stopped to effect the infamous change of command.

In the process 36 precious hours were lost, enabling the Indians to reinforce the area. When it was finally resumed it was unable to develop momentum and was terminated when India opened up the Lahore front on Sept 6. Because of the field marshal’s folly and Maj Gen Yahya’s quest for glory, Phase 2 of the plan had backfired. Maj Gen Joginder Singh, then chief of staff of western command, in his book Behind the Scene writes, ‘The enemy came to our rescue.’

When the Indians opened up the Lahore front, the field marshal was surprised and when they opened up the Sialkot front on Sept 8, he panicked. He had been deluded into believing that Indian reactions would remain confined to Kashmir. As a field marshal he should have known better. Therefore, once he had decided to provoke India he should have provoked them all the way — by launching Grand Slam 24 hours after Gibraltar along with a complementary offensive in Ravi-Chenab corridor to sever India’s road link with Jammu-Srinagar, while employing the SSG a night before to destroy Harike headworks and the bridges on River Beas, thus placing the Indian high command in an operational dilemma. Only then would severance of Kashmir have been achieved, and the Muslim population energised to support the Gibraltar Forces.

On the night of Sept 6, 1965, three C-130 planes took off from Peshawar and headed towards the Pathankot, Adampur and Halwara airbases. The passengers were SSC commandos who were to parachute into pre-selected areas in the vicinity of the bases, then move in and create havoc. At 2.30am (Indian time) they jumped out and in less than a minute hit the ground, most of them landing in settlements and water channels that were not supposed to be there. The alarm was raised. With surprise, their main weapon lost, their mission was foredoomed to failure. The next 48 hours saw them fighting running battles with their pursuers until their ammunition ran out.

It was planned in haste on outdated intelligence and maps. SSG’s request to delay the operation by 24 hours and advance the drop-time was denied. Thus even before the launch, the odds had been stacked against them. The cream of the army was wasted in a needless operation against targets that were subsequently taken out by the PAF many times over.

On Sept 6, 1965, India launched XI Corps against Lahore, and two days later, I Corps in Sialkot sector, both under Lt Gen Harbaksh Singh, Commander Western Command. In spite of achieving complete surprise and enjoying numerical superiority, both offensives failed to accomplish their missions.

The reasons for their failure are best explained by the commander in his book War Despatches … in XI Corps ‘there was a sickening repetition of command failures … leadership at brigade and battalion levels left much to be desired’. ‘[In I Corps] the guiding hand of the corps commander was conspicuously absent — he hardly played a part in the battle’ — leading to ‘a dismal disaster at lower levels’. True.

Like a bad workman Lt Gen Singh has blamed his tools (1 and XI Corps). He had blundered by committing 1 Corps when Pakistan’s armoured division was yet to show its hand, a decision that could have led to disastrous consequences for his command. The fact is that neither his chief, nor he himself, nor his corps commanders, nor their division commanders, were mentally equipped to command their formations in battle, as clearly they had been promoted beyond their capacity. The Indian army had a surfeit of such generals.

On the morning of Sept 8, 1965, unknown to them that India’s armoured division had been committed in Sialkot sector, Pakistan’s strike-force consisting of I Armoured Division (Maj Gen Naseer Ahmed) and Infantry Division 11 (Maj Gen Abdul Hameed Khan), under the latter, was preparing to embark on a counter-offensive mission from the Khem Karan area, which if accomplished, would paralyse India’s western command comprising I Corps, XI Corps and XV Corps (in Kashmir) as the logistic lines serving them would be severed. The mission was to secure the line of River Beas to a point beyond the bridges on GT road by the evening of Sept 9.

The counter-offensive got off to a flying start as the leading armoured units secured a line 12 miles away. Then the foul-ups began. As night fell, the infantry of Division 11 failed to move up to relieve the units to enable them to refuel. Instead of sending infantry and logistics forward, the armoured units were ordered to move back. This madness was repeated on Sept 9. On Sept 10, when the units moved forward again, they encountered heavy opposition, and in the meantime, the Indians had reinforced the area. Unable to make headway, the counter-offensive was terminated.

Gen Choudhry, Indian’s army chief and Lt Gen Harbaksh Singh had given a great opportunity to Gens Naseer and Hameed to trap the western command and score a decisive victory. Instead of being driven by a relentless urge to get to River Beas soonest, they bungled it. The Indian and Pakistani generals in the war of 1965 were cast in the same mould. Only Akhtar Malik stood out as an imaginative and dynamic general.

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | War blunders in 1965
 
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