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Pakistan's terrible idea to develop battlefield nukes

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... Umm, hardly- it was Dr MMS back in '91 when Convress were in power who started the reforms, and over the last 20 years when India has averaged 8-9% growth for 8 years the country as been under Congress rule with Dr MMS at the helm. I'm not a Cngress supporter but you can't put out this nonsense and expect it to go unchallenged.

Exactly right. Manmohan did all the hard work but people still like to portray others as the saviours of the Indian economic behemoth.

Yes , Uranium is found in the common sand to be taken in kilos by any terrorist !

What exactly does he smokes whilst being on CIA payroll ? :rofl:

Thank Hoodbhoy for his fabulous wisdom on nuclear theft. Ask him to take even 10 kilos of the stuff and see where he ends up :p
 
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It would be very hard since Pak nuke assets are majorly mobile assets and knowing their exact locations would be difficult.

Thus necessitating a nuclear strike to cover large tracts of land as exact location of the miissile might not be known..hence the general area might come under attack to neutralise the threat..

Silo based launch systems are well protected hard targets(by the virtue of being underground) but are stationary..on the other hand mobile systems though can easily be dispersed but are soft target of large yield bombs and EMPs that they bring along.
Indian retaliation would be on the cities,God forbid in case that happens while the Pak nuke assets would be somewhere else,

I doubt Indian retaliation will be against Pakistani cities(unless Pakistan is hiding its nuclear weapons in its cities) ..Indian's next instinct after Pakistan shows its willingness to use nuclear weapons by actually using one would be to ensure it own survival..the only way..it can do that is making sure it can get destroy as many Pakistani nuclear weapons as possible.So at this point, India will do what ever is necessary to reduce the Pakistani nuclear threat..even if that means using multiple nuclear weapons to take out large tracts of land.
thus incase India does launch such a massive retaliation in response to pak using nukes on its own soil on an invading Indian force, pak will then have to retaliate also with whatever is left with it.

Well that is obvious, which why India would try to take out as many of your weapons ..as it can ..by any means possible.
So, MAD will kick into place.

Hope, this never happens and this talk keeps to us arm chair generals :)

Use of nuclear weapons is MAD scenario..chances of cooler heads prevailing after the first weapons has been launched are minuscule.
 
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Thank Hoodbhoy for his fabulous wisdom on nuclear theft. Ask him to take even 10 kilos of the stuff and see where he ends up :p

Yeah , and for some unknown but still funny as hell reasons , that theft can only be done in Pakistan :rofl: ... I think he mistook " Kandahar's finest " for Uranium ... So much for being a distinguished nuclear physicist :azn:
 
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It so appear that you have massive trouble comprehending English , where did I say that Pakistan doesn't have First Use Policy ? :azn: ... I commented that Pakistan isn't the first country in the world with " First Use Policy " if you care to read posts properly ... Where exactly does our tech lags behind if your nukes just fizzled according to your very own scientists who led the program ? Post nonsensical and off topic comments and get reply in the same manner !

Yeah , Pakistan is using tactical nukes on Indian invading CBG's and not Indian cities , all I am asking if Dehli's ready to risk a billion lives and start a full scale nuclear war for a couple CBG's ! You do know about the " Cold Start " doctrine right ? IF yes , then what is so hard for you to understand ? :azn:



my bad...i read it as nor first use policy :cheesy:
the rest was offtopic meant for another thread :woot:

If a nuke war breaks out, Do you think Delhi has any other option other than playing along !! Indian Cold start will have to be precise fast and able to hold the gains in very short time...........if achieved ....Pak will not have the time to initiate nuke attacks..........but to do this more than overwhelming conventional superiority..india will also need Very high technological and theatre centric network system in place........till such a network is developed ...dont think India will initiate anything ..........At the present rate it will take atleast 2 decades for India to attain necessary advantage..........also it depends on the ABM systems under development for theatre and medium range attacks

In the End it depends upon the predicted number of pak tactical nukes, advancement of ABM systems and effectiveness of theatre centric network......
 
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Not necessarily and not written somewhere else also.

We all know that Pak has no major offensive capability, enough to capture huge parts of India or some strategic part, but India does have that capability with respect to Pakistan.

But in the Indian - China scenario, China may have or might be having massive offensive capability which can lead to China capturing major Indian territory (1962) or Chinese forces launching an invasion kind of thing of huge scale, that may become the Indian nuke threshold, same scenario which we are facing, tomorrow India can face from the Chinese side.

So the no first nuke policy is good on paper to calm down international players, but in practical world, no one has no first strike policy, the moment a certain threshold specified earlier or reached while during a war, nuke will or may be unleashed.

You never know.


india might have no first strike policy with respect to Pakistan, sri lanka, nepal etc, but not in case of when it comes to China.



There is no way to be certain ..Indian will stick to NFU policy in heat of the battle.But as we are talking about Indian- Pakistan scenario here, India most probably will.
 
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! Indian Cold start will have to be precise fast and able to hold the gains in very short time...........if achieved ....Pak will not have the time to initiate nuke attacks..........but to do this more than overwhelming conventional superiority..

:rofl: Do you really think that India will initiate surgical strikes , invade Pakistani territory , face no resistance and Islamabad will not know it ? :azn: Fair Dinkum , At what speed does your army move so not to give Pakistan time to launch missiles ? :lol:

Your posts are getting funny as hell !
 
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I will still go with flawed ... Your country's the one invading , losing no land and facing no threat to its existence but still willing to risk a billion citizens for a couple CBG's :azn:

Again it makes no difference, what you choose to call it.

Indians will not launch attacks on Pakistan ..it will only be launched in case massive Pakistani terror attacks on Indian cities or Kargil type incursions etc.*


No , the invading CBG's pose a grave threat to the sovereignty , territorial integrity and the very existence of our country hence we will use if we deem it necessary , we are faced with a rival with massive conventional superiority being 5 times larger than us therefore the need for " First Use Policy " ! If nukes cant defend the country , what is the use to have them ? :azn:

IBG's action as per cold start is designed to teach Pakistan a lesson and not destroy it.

Yet again you have the right to ascertain your threshold and we have ours.

However I standby my statement, use of tactical nuclear weapons will be big mistake on Pakistan's part..as it would it have crossed Indian nuclear thresh hold, yet not caused significant damage to India in its first strike.
 
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i skimmed quickly through the article, for whatever it was worth

no need for outsiders to worry about our nuclear safety....lose sleep and bite your fingernails till your heart's content

aint nothing you can do about either our strategic assets nor are you in position to reach 'conclusions' regarding safety of said strategic assets

pop a chill pill or go smoke a joint

Deterrence can only be achieved if the capability, credibility and the will can be displayed. If as a nuclear weapon power, you do not have the will to use these, don't have them.

the will is there, but only as a last resort


on will: it was Pakistan's WILL to keep South Asia nuclear free; we only reacted to indian belligerence. They thought they'd possess the 'keys' to be a bully of South Asia. Unfortunately for them, a sound response came.
 
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This sure will blast away some misconceptions of many Pakistanis .. lol!

LOL. Every one has different views and ideas. This writer was not there when the war took place in 1965. He probably read some indian writer's version of the war and made the statement.
Below I have quotes from foreign journalists who were reporting about the war AT THAT TIME:

The 1965 presented a true picture of Napoleon’s famous saying that there are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. During the war foreign journalists’ observations given below are also a proof of this awesome combination of sword and spirit of the Pakistani nation.

On September 15, 1965 American broadcasting Corporation’s Roy Malone reported that ‘I have been a journalist now for twenty years and want to go on record that I have never seen a more confident and victorious group of soldiers than those fighting for Pakistan, right now.’

On September 17, Time Magazine reported that, “Pakistan’s small highly trained army is more than a match for the Indians.”

According to the London Daily Mirror of September 1965 “India is being soundly beaten by a nation which is outnumbered by four and a half to one in population and three to one in size of armed forces.”


Two are American sources and one is British source. It shows how the world felt who won the 1965 war. LOL.

Now read what the Indians were trying to hide but couldnt about the war.

The Times of India has acquired a copy of the official history of the 1965 war, finalized by Indian Defence Ministry in 1992 after years of research, but suppressed ever since. Contemporary accounts, generated by a jingoistic press, saw the war as a spectacular victory on almost every front. But the truth that could not be hidden despite the best efforts of the official historians is that the war was, in the words of one of its most distinguished commanders, Lt. Gen Harbakhsh Singh, “A catalogue of lost victories”

So these were the views of the people who were there at that time. It is their views.
So you go on to believe the fantasy that you won all the wars LOL with us. But the truth is different.
LOL. Even in 1948, we took one-third of Kashmir from you guys and call it proudly, 'AZAD KASHMIR'.
LOL. So much for your so-called fantasy victories.

Pakistan Zindabad.
:pakistan:
 
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i skimmed quickly through the article, for whatever it was worth

no need for outsiders to worry about our nuclear safety....lose sleep and bite your fingernails till your heart's content

aint nothing you can do about either our strategic assets nor are you in position to reach 'conclusions' regarding safety of said strategic assets

pop a chill pill or go smoke a joint



the will is there, but only as a last resort


on will: it was Pakistan's WILL to keep South Asia nuclear free; we only reacted to indian belligerence. They thought they'd possess the 'keys' to be a bully of South Asia. Unfortunately for them, a sound response came.

As far as I've read, India made nukes in 1974, and made 5 huge tests in 1998, then threatened Pakistan. Pakistan reacted and detonated 6 nukes, 20 days after that. I know you guys consider yourselves geniuses, but noone can make nukes from scratch in 20 days. This proves that Pakistan has had a nuke program looooong before Chagai and Pokhran tests.

RAW provided intel about these nukes, India threatened Pakistan, and you guys played right into our hands and exposed your nukes to the world. Pity, thanks to Moraji Desai, pakistan plugged the leak, we can;t get more info now.

LOL. Every one has different views and ideas. This writer was not there when the war took place in 1965. He probably read some indian writer's version of the war and made the statement.
Below I have quotes from foreign journalists who were reporting about the war AT THAT TIME:

The 1965 presented a true picture of Napoleon’s famous saying that there are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. During the war foreign journalists’ observations given below are also a proof of this awesome combination of sword and spirit of the Pakistani nation.

On September 15, 1965 American broadcasting Corporation’s Roy Malone reported that ‘I have been a journalist now for twenty years and want to go on record that I have never seen a more confident and victorious group of soldiers than those fighting for Pakistan, right now.’

On September 17, Time Magazine reported that, “Pakistan’s small highly trained army is more than a match for the Indians.”

According to the London Daily Mirror of September 1965 “India is being soundly beaten by a nation which is outnumbered by four and a half to one in population and three to one in size of armed forces.”


Two are American sources and one is British source. It shows how the world felt who won the 1965 war. LOL.

Now read what the Indians were trying to hide but couldnt about the war.

The Times of India has acquired a copy of the official history of the 1965 war, finalized by Indian Defence Ministry in 1992 after years of research, but suppressed ever since. Contemporary accounts, generated by a jingoistic press, saw the war as a spectacular victory on almost every front. But the truth that could not be hidden despite the best efforts of the official historians is that the war was, in the words of one of its most distinguished commanders, Lt. Gen Harbakhsh Singh, “A catalogue of lost victories”

So these were the views of the people who were there at that time. It is their views.
So you go on to believe the fantasy that you won all the wars LOL with us. But the truth is different.
LOL. Even in 1948, we took one-third of Kashmir from you guys and call it proudly, 'AZAD KASHMIR'.
LOL. So much for your so-called fantasy victories.

Pakistan Zindabad.
:pakistan:

According to the Library of Congress Country Studies conducted by the Federal Research Division of the United States[77] –
The war was militarily inconclusive; each side held prisoners and some territory belonging to the other. Losses were relatively heavy—on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, schooled in the belief of their own martial prowess, refused to accept the possibility of their country's military defeat by "Hindu India" and were, instead, quick to blame their failure to attain their military aims on what they considered to be the ineptitude of Ayub Khan and his government.

TIME magazine reported that India held 690 mi2 of Pakistan territory while Pakistan held 250 mi2 of Indian territory in Kashmir and Rajasthan. Additionally, Pakistan had lost almost half its armour temporarily.[78] The article further elaborates,
Severely mauled by the larger Indian armed forces, Pakistan could continue the fight only by teaming up with Red China and turning its back on the U.N.

Devin T. Hagerty wrote in his book "South Asia in world politics"[79] –
The invading Indian forces outfought their Pakistani counterparts and halted their attack on the outskirts of Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city. By the time United Nations intervened on September 22, Pakistan had suffered a clear defeat.

In his book "National identity and geopolitical visions",[80] Gertjan Dijkink writes –
The superior Indian forces, however, won a decisive victory and the army could have even marched on into Pakistani territory had external pressure not forced both combatants to cease their war efforts.

An excerpt from Stanley Wolpert's India,[81] summarizing the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965,
In three weeks the second Indo-Pak War ended in what appeared to be a draw when the embargo placed by Washington on U.S. ammunition and replacements for both armies forced cessation of conflict before either side won a clear victory. India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub's chagrin.

In his book titled The greater game: India's race with destiny and China, David Van Praagh wrote[8] –
India won the war. It gained 1,840 km2 (710 sq mi) of Pakistani territory: 640 km2 (250 sq mi) in Azad Kashmir, Pakistan's portion of the state; 460 km2 (180 sq mi) of the Sailkot sector; 380 km2 (150 sq mi) far to the south of Sindh; and most critical, 360 km2 (140 sq mi) on the Lahore front. Pakistan took 540 km2 (210 sq mi) of Indian territory: 490 km2 (190 sq mi) in the Chhamb sector and 50 km2 (19 sq mi) around Khem Karan.

Dennis Kux's "India and the United States estranged democracies" also provides a summary of the war,[82]
Although both sides lost heavily in men and material, and neither gained a decisive military advantage, India had the better of the war. New Delhi achieved its basic goal of thwarting Pakistan's attempt to seize Kashmir by force. Pakistan gained nothing from a conflict which it had instigated.

BBC reported that the war served game changer in Pakistani politics,[83]
The defeat in the 1965 war led to the army's invincibility being challenged by an increasingly vocal opposition. This became a surge after his protege, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, deserted him and established the Pakistan People's Party.

"A region in turmoil: South Asian conflicts since 1947" by Robert Johnson mentions[9] –
India's strategic aims were modest – it aimed to deny Pakistani Army victory, although it ended up in possession of 720 square miles (1,900 km2) of Pakistani territory for the loss of just 220 square miles (570 km2) of its own.

An excerpt from William M. Carpenter and David G. Wiencek's "Asian security handbook: terrorism and the new security environment"[84] –
A brief but furious 1965 war with India began with a covert Pakistani thrust across the Kashmiri cease-fire line and ended up with the city of Lahore threatened with encirclement by Indian Army. Another UN-sponsored cease-fire left borders unchanged, but Pakistan's vulnerability had again been exposed.

English historian John Keay's "India: A History" provides a summary of the 1965 war[85] –
The 1965 Indo-Pak war lasted barely a month. Pakistan made gains in the Rajasthan desert but its main push against India's Jammu-Srinagar road link was repulsed and Indian tanks advanced to within a sight of Lahore. Both sides claimed victory but India had most to celebrate.

There. other's who were alive back then. :P
 
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CONTINGENT ON THE EXTENT OF INDIAN BELIGGERANCE
 
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EzioAltaïr;3381117 said:
As far as I've read, India made nukes in 1974, and made 5 huge tests in 1998, then threatened Pakistan. Pakistan reacted and detonated 6 nukes, 20 days after that. I know you guys consider yourselves geniuses, but noone can make nukes from scratch in 20 days. This proves that Pakistan has had a nuke program looooong before Chagai and Pokhran tests.

RAW provided intel about these nukes, India threatened Pakistan, and you guys played right into our hands and exposed your nukes to the world. Pity, thanks to Moraji Desai, pakistan plugged the leak, we can;t get more info now.

As far as i can understand supported by facts , Pakistan nuclear program started after Islamabad was made aware of the Indian program ( the buddha shouldn't have smiled :D ) , the threat and your hegemonic designs for the region , not before ... So , to ensure the balance of power in the region , we did what needed to be done ... Cry me a river if Islamabad's possessing nukes is a bad idea , the reality wont change on ground ...

Pakistan's nuclear program was an open secret to the world in 80's :lol: ... What are you taking credit for , kid ? The world had to keep quiet because we were busy ending the Cold war for them :azn: ... A quiet whisper in someone's ear during a cricket match was enough for your PM to " abort and return to normal " situation after your country initiated the largest mobilization after WWII ... Go figure what I am talking about ... :wave:

Exposed our nukes to the world ? :lol: And remind me , if that happened before you did ... Sanctions were slapped on both countries , what are you trying to say ? :azn:
 
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IBG's action as per cold start is designed to teach Pakistan a lesson and not destroy it.

However I standby my statement, use of tactical nuclear weapons will be big mistake on Pakistan's part..as it would it have crossed Indian nuclear thresh hold, yet not caused significant damage to India in its first strike.

Sorry , that isn't going to happen , the heavy resistance and International pressure you will face in the first place will be enough to " abort " the whole operation , pursue something further and be ready for the Cold to get Hot ...

Actually not , India is faced with a dilemma here again :lol: Are you willing to risk the lives of a billion citizens for a couple invading CBG's even when there's no threat to your existence ? We have , and therefore will use every single weapon at our disposal to thwart such a move in the first place ... There's no way for us to be certain of the objectives of a Cold Start , you talk if Pakistan should willingly allow this to happen :azn: ... Yes , damage will be done to the invading army , the purpose is to cause significant damage to the IA , not your cities , the rest of the nuclear command will go to high alert if India decides to retaliate on Pakistani cities , do not doubt the Pakistan's second strike capability , we will make sure we take every one with us if we are going down ... Read " Samson's Option " , the Pakistani mentality is the same ...
 
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Sorry , that isn't going to happen , the heavy resistance you will face in the first place will be enough to " abort " the whole operation , pursue something further and be ready for the Cold to get Hot ...

Actually not , India is faced with a dilemma here again :lol: Are you willing to risk the lives of a billion citizens for a couple invading CBG's even when there's no threat to your existence ? We have , and therefore will use every single weapon at our disposal to thwart such a move in the first place ... There's no way to be certain of the objective of a Cold War , you talk if Pakistan should willingly allow this to happen :azn: ... Yes , damage will be done to the invading army , the purpose is to cause significant damage to the IA , not your cities , the rest of the nuclear command will go to high alert if India decides to retaliate on Pakistani cities , do not doubt the Pakistan's second strike capability , we will make sure we take every one with us if we are going down ... Read " Samson's Option " ...

You can keep going around in circles, blowing your own trumpet .asking the same question over and over again..but the answer will remain the same, answer to which is clearly mentioned Indian nuclear doctrine.
http://www.idsa.in/policybrief/reviewingindiasnucleardoctrine_aahmed_240409

The current doctrinal precept

The sub-paragraph of interest of the press release subsequent to the Cabinet Committee on Security endorsing the nuclear doctrine of 04 Jan 03 reads: “(ii) A posture of “No First Use”: Nuclear weapons will only be used in retaliation against a nuclear attack on Indian territory or on Indian forces anywhere; (iii) Nuclear retaliation to a first strike will be massive and designed to inflict unacceptable damage.


Once you use nuclear weapons even a battlefield ones..India will be forced to use it's.

And if even for second you assume, it would not respond to a nuclear strike on its forces with a nuclear response...you would have proven yourself to be bigger fools than your general, who assumed India will not cross international border, If Pakistan attacked India Kashmir back in 65 or the ones who underestimated Indian response to Pakistani infiltrators in Kargil.
 
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