Pakistan's struggle to rein in religious seminaries!

[TankMan]

We could establish something similar like we have here in Western countries, the institution of State Church (State Mosque) under direct command of the King (President). Although it could easily become corrupt as the rest of our traditional society already is, but let's hope

That's not a bad idea. It actually ties in pretty well with the idea of a national version of Islam. The state needs a counter-narrative.

But we need to make sure it doesn't become a sect on its own. It needs to tie in with the existing sects while being impartial i.e not Baralvi vs Deobandi vs Shia vs Ahle Hadith. We have enough of that nonsense. Which is why I cited the example of Javed Ghamidi sahib, he works against sectarianism and promotes unity. That must be the stance of a state Mosque.

It will be difficult but a very effective long-term solution.

But there is already a 40-60 minute class on Islamiyat that includes portions of the Quran taught daily. What good does this extra half hour do?

Portions of the Quran isn't enough. If it were, school students wouldn't be going to maddrassas in the first place.

Of course most madrassa students are those that don't have schools available. Simply standardizing education and making it accessible will solve half the problem. Having an extra class would solve the other half.

 

[VCheng]

ortions of the Quran isn't enough. If it were, school students wouldn't be going to maddrassas in the first place.

Of course most madrassa students are those that don't have schools available. Simply standardizing education and making it accessible will solve half the problem. Having an extra class would solve the other half.

So you want all the schools to teach all of the Quran, just like madrassas?

 

[Norwegian]

Which is why I cited the example of Javed Ghamidi sahib, he works against sectarianism and promotes unity.

Ghamdi is peanuts against the Great Muslim Philosopher who first conceived the Idea of a Muslim Welfare State after Rashidun Caliphate:

Iqbal envisaged a prosperous, democratic and welfare state

Iqbal envisaged a prosperous, democratic and welfare state - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

 

[TankMan]

Ghamdi is peanuts against the Great Muslim Philosopher who first conceived the Idea of a Muslim Welfare State after Rashidun Caliphate:

Iqbal envisaged a prosperous, democratic and welfare state - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

I agree, now if only you could find a way to resurrect Iqbal

So you want all the schools to teach all of the Quran, just like madrassas?

No, not just like the madrassas. Schools would be free of sectarian dogma, for one. Most madrassas teach hifz, i.e they have students memorize the entire Arabic text by heart. This involves going through the entire text multiple times and spending hours repeating it over and over again.

Schools would simply go over it and its translation once, and discuss some of it in light of modern issues (basically, ''why you shouldn't believe Mullahs, with proof from the Quran'').

 

[VCheng]

Schools would simply go over it and its translation once, and discuss some of it in light of modern issues (basically, ''why you shouldn't believe Mullahs, with proof from the Quran'').

They already do this as part of Islamiyat. Adding the rest of the Quran will not change this much, since the content to be included into Islamiyat in schools was decided by the ulema themselves.

 

[TankMan]

They already do this as part of Islamiyat

No. Very few schools do. Like I said, it isn't standardize

Adding the rest of the Quran will not change this much

It would give people no reason to send kids who go to schools to madaris. That is change enough.

ince the content to be included into Islamiyat in schools was decided by the ulema themselves.

They will not be able to include sectarian dogma or hate-speech into school curriculum. Unlike public schools, madaris can be made exclusive to specific sects.

@Syed.Ali.Haider
The issue with madrassas is not that they teach the Quran. It's the added baggage and lack of any other subject. If students can learn the Quran without having to go a madrassa, with the added bonus of becoming immune to mullah propaganda, what's the problem?

The ideal solution, standardization that requires madrassas to teach the same subjects as public schools do (essentially converting them into schools), will solve both problems.

 

[Jf Thunder]

Come and try it your self this will fail at maximum you would manage to register them and monitor who comes and goes nothing more than that. What actually should be done is first schools developed and free education is given in schools than religious education is increased. When a child reached third grade he or she should be able to recite Quran properly and in third class Arabic language should be introduced. Also Islamiyat course increased and after 5 classes a child should be offered to do Hifz and this Hifz should be done in schools and in 9th and 10th grade Quran should be taught with translation and also Islamiyat. In 11th and 12th one Tafseer and books of Hadees should be taught.

a better solution would be Aerial Strikes, on the Universities of ignorance

 

[Zarvan]

An academic year is about 1,000 hours of education, and there are several subjects to teach. You cannot massively expand one subject without massively compressing the others. Simple math.

Than don't cry on Madrassas

 

[Jf Thunder]

No I am telling to teach both Islam and formal education together I know you have serious problems with Islam but 99 % Pakistanis love Islam and if you will teach both Madrassahs will slowly start reducing

yup we love Islam, but we hate the Mullahs who try to distort Islam to their own will

 

[VCheng]

@Syed.Ali.Haider
The issue with madrassas is not that they teach the Quran. It's the added baggage and lack of any other subject. If students can learn the Quran without having to go a madrassa, with the added bonus of becoming immune to mullah propaganda, what's the problem?

The problem is the assumption that studying the Quran should be a mandatory part of education. Why? It is a private matter and should not be part of teaching in schools at all.

Than don't cry on Madrassas

Yes, it is madrassas that make everyone else cry with the consequences.

 

[Jf Thunder]

That Islamiyat needs to be expanded massively. Islam is much bigger than 150 page book of Islamiyat.

oh please, i had two Islamiat books in O Levels, 250 + 100 pages

 

[TankMan]

The problem is the assumption that studying the Quran should be a mandatory part of education.

The option to opt out will be available.

Why? It is a private matter and should not be part of teaching in schools at all.

You shouldn't complain when people send their kids to madrassas then. We can't deprive people of every form of Quran education.

oh please, i had two Islamiat books in O Levels, 250 + 100 pages

Unfortunately very few children in Pakistan study an O Level curriculum.

 

[VCheng]

The option to opt out will be available.

You shouldn't complain when people send their kids to madrassas then. We can't deprive people of every form of Quran education.


Unfortunately very few children in Pakistan study an O Level curriculum.

People send their kids to madrassas due to lack of proper schools for them. The solution lies in investing more in better education facilities, not in converting all of the existing ones to the same common religious denominator that will crowd out other subjects. Let the people decide what level of religious education they want for their kids without making it part of the school system proper.


Here is another take on the subject of school matter:

School curriculum in Pakistan distorts views on terrorism, claims report

 

[TankMan]

People send their kids to madrassas due to lack of proper schools for them.

I already addressed that:

Of course most madrassa students are those that don't have schools available. Simply standardizing education and making it accessible will solve half the problem. Having an extra [Quran] class would solve the other half.

Let the people decide what level of religious education they want for their kids without making it part of the school system proper.

Non-muslims have the option to opt out, Muslims won't mind it. This is not an extreme level of religious education we're talking about.

 

[VCheng]

Non-muslims have the option to opt out, Muslims won't mind it. This is not an extreme level of religious education we're talking about.

Why don't we trust the parents to decide what level of religious education is extreme for their child? What is your basis for concluding that "Muslims won't mind it"? Why not make it so that people have to opt IN instead of OUT?