Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[Zarvan]

tbh, we lack info and there's no transparency about how POF operates or makes its decisions.

IMO, it just seems that Salman Ali does his thing while GHQ drafts its own plans. I think the PA will eventually sign onto a foreign rifle. They haven't gotten to that point yet because (1) it's expensive and (2) there are other funding priorities.

However, the cost of reworking POF to produce a new rifle and the cost of re-arming the Army are two separate issues. The former is a manageable overhead and the latter is a long-term endeavor that will take several decades.

The infamous 2015-2016 tender was proof that the PA was interested in a foreign design. IMO, they still are, despite POF's ongoing projects. POF isn't moving the needle with any of our top decision-makers and, IMO, the reasons why the PA didn't pick a new rifle yet have nothing to do with the G-3, POF, or Salman Ali. That time just hasn't come, but it will, eventually, and I don't think any POF design will be in the running.

Getting one rifle series from a European country plus joint collaboration with companies like Kale and Kalip of Turkey is the way forward.

 

[PanzerKiel]

tbh, we lack info and there's no transparency about how POF operates or makes its decisions.

IMO, it just seems that Salman Ali does his thing while GHQ drafts its own plans. I think the PA will eventually sign onto a foreign rifle. They haven't gotten to that point yet because (1) it's expensive and (2) there are other funding priorities.

However, the cost of reworking POF to produce a new rifle and the cost of re-arming the Army are two separate issues. The former is a manageable overhead and the latter is a long-term endeavor that will take several decades.

The infamous 2015-2016 tender was proof that the PA was interested in a foreign design. IMO, they still are, despite POF's ongoing projects. POF isn't moving the needle with any of our top decision-makers and, IMO, the reasons why the PA didn't pick a new rifle yet have nothing to do with the G-3, POF, or Salman Ali. That time just hasn't come, but it will, eventually, and I don't think any POF design will be in the running.

i recently had a one on one meeting with Salman on this. It was of course a serious meeting whereby a decision had to be taken.

Salman's designs are good, workable, feasible considering our present tooling available in POF which is already geared towards 7.62. Right now, issue under discussion is the requirement of sufficient space and rails for installation for all kinds of optics which a soldier may be required to install. Lets leave it there, its still under discussion. Moreover, a suggestion changing of calibre from 7.62 to 5.56 for the whole army has also popped up. This is easier said than done since it would require years to change over...equipment, doctrine, scales of ammunition etc....

 

[Ice-Le0]

tbh, we lack info and there's no transparency about how POF operates or makes its decisions.

IMO, it just seems that Salman Ali does his thing while GHQ drafts its own plans. I think the PA will eventually sign onto a foreign rifle. They haven't gotten to that point yet because (1) it's expensive and (2) there are other funding priorities.

However, the cost of reworking POF to produce a new rifle and the cost of re-arming the Army are two separate issues. The former is a manageable overhead and the latter is a long-term endeavor that will take several decades.

The infamous 2015-2016 tender was proof that the PA was interested in a foreign design. IMO, they still are, despite POF's ongoing projects. POF isn't moving the needle with any of our top decision-makers and, IMO, the reasons why the PA didn't pick a new rifle yet have nothing to do with the G-3, POF, or Salman Ali. That time just hasn't come, but it will, eventually, and I don't think any POF design will be in the running.

Personally, I still hold some hope for the BW20 and its variants. At least from what I have seen and read it appears to be a relatively solid and versatile platform with a decent existing production base due to parts and fabrication commonality with the G3. I would agree that it's unlikely to become anything close to a standard service, especially any time soon, but I could at the very least see it in limited military/law enforcement usage or even as a civilian weapon.

 

[farooqbhai007]

i recently had a one on one meeting with Salman on this. It was of course a serious meeting whereby a decision had to be taken.

Salman's designs are good, workable, feasible considering our present tooling available in POF which is already geared towards 7.62. Right now, issue under discussion is the requirement of sufficient space and rails for installation for all kinds of optics which a soldier may be required to install. Lets leave it there, its still under discussion. Moreover, a suggestion changing of calibre from 7.62 to 5.56 for the whole army has also popped up. This is easier said than done since it would require years to change over...equipment, doctrine, scales of ammunition etc....

Let me guess 5.56 issue popped up from their side as Salman Ali has already said on his vids several times before he wants PA to adopt 5.56.

Personally, I still hold some hope for the BW20 and its variants. At least from what I have seen and read it appears to be a relatively solid and versatile platform with a decent existing production base due to parts and fabrication commonality with the G3. I would agree that it's unlikely to become anything close to a standard service, especially any time soon, but I could at the very least see it in limited military/law enforcement usage or even as a civilian weapon.

Afaik Salman Ali said on his YouTube that some Para Mil/LEA unit had ordered some rifles from new series.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Let me guess 5.56 issue popped up from their side as Salman Ali has already said on his vids several times before he wants PA to adopt 5.56.
Afaik Salman Ali said on his YouTube that some Para Mil/LEA unit had ordered some rifles from new series.

Several LEAs including FC are already using POF made LSR, Azb DMR and host of other weapons.

 

[Bilal.]

Right now, issue under discussion is the requirement of sufficient space and rails for installation for all kinds of optics which a soldier may be required to install.

True, the rail is not running through the whole 12 O’ Clock but probably a change that can be made. Plus not sure what’s on 3 and 9 O’Clock due to image quality, is it weaver or MLOK. At 6 is definitely a healthy length of picatinny.

One more thing that they promised and should be incorporated is bolt lock back after last round.

What is interesting is he is referring to some more calibre being developed other than 7.62 NATO/Russian and 5.56.

P.S.: they need to develop some good flip-up sights for ease of use with optics. So they don’t need to completely remove it when optics are on.

 

[farooqbhai007]

Several LEAs including FC are already using POF made LSR, Azb DMR and host of other weapons.

Yes they have indeed been in service for long time now. I was referring to some new rifle from BW- Series in hands of LEA. He told this in a comment a few weeks back.

 

[Mrc]

True, the rail is not running through the whole 12 O’ Clock but probably a change that can be made. Plus not sure what’s on 3 and 9 O’Clock due to image quality, is it weaver or MLOK. At 6 is definitely a healthy length of picatinny.

One more thing that they promised and should be incorporated is bolt lock back after last round.

What is interesting is he is referring to some more calibre being developed other than 7.62 NATO/Russian and 5.56.

P.S.: they need to develop some good flip-up sights for ease of use with optics. So they don’t need to completely remove it when optics are on.

I m not a professional shooter but own a M4.

The recoil of this gun seems quiet good. Shoots very straight

 

[Bilal.]

I m not a professional shooter but own a M4.

The recoil of this gun seems quiet good. Shoots very straight

An that’s with an AK round. 5.56 should be even better.

He does mention that they incorporated some recoils reduction mechanisms in the platform.

 

[sparten]

Moreover, a suggestion changing of calibre from 7.62 to 5.56 for the whole army has also popped up. This is easier said than done since it would require years to change over...equipment, doctrine, scales of ammunition etc

At a time when everyone is moving away from the 5.56 due to its indifferent ability to defeat body armour, this seems to be a monumentally stupid idea.

 

[sparten]

@SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Does either of you know when PMTF added CNC machine centres to its portfolio? Can these machines be used to upgrade POF and produce local and foreign small arms and light weapons? If so, why does POF's Salman Ali keep reminding us that producing a foreign design would require importing machinery?

Also, has PMTF sold these to private or public industries?

Link to the relevant webpage:

Machine Tools – PMTF

pmtfl.com

PMTF makes CNC. So do a couple of private companys, Al-Noor and Hafiz.
But
1. CNC aren't created equal. Local ones may not be up to snuff.
2. Even if they are, certification requirements often will require use of particular brands of machine tool since the makers of those are also certified. So even if Al-Noor or PMTF makes totally adequate milling machines or lathes for purposes, the certification requirements might mandate Trumpf or DMG-Mori.

 

[Bilal.]

PMTF makes CNC. So do a couple of private companys, Al-Noor and Hafiz.
But
1. CNC aren't created equal. Local ones may not be up to snuff.
2. Even if they are, certification requirements often will require use of particular brands of machine tool since the makers of those are also certified. So even if Al-Noor or PMTF makes totally adequate milling machines or lathes for purposes, the certification requirements might mandate Trumpf or DMG-Mori.

Can you please share link to their CNC machines. All I found are manual lathe machines.

Edit: Just checked, PMTF is indeed making both milling and turning CNCs.

 

[RAMPAGE]

PMTF makes CNC. So do a couple of private companys, Al-Noor and Hafiz.
But
1. CNC aren't created equal. Local ones may not be up to snuff.
2. Even if they are, certification requirements often will require use of particular brands of machine tool since the makers of those are also certified. So even if Al-Noor or PMTF makes totally adequate milling machines or lathes for purposes, the certification requirements might mandate Trumpf or DMG-Mori.

PMTF CNCs are certified by TUV Austria. I doubt certification would be an issue with PMTF machines, but I may be wrong.

 

[RAMPAGE]

i recently had a one on one meeting with Salman on this. It was of course a serious meeting whereby a decision had to be taken.

Salman's designs are good, workable, feasible considering our present tooling available in POF which is already geared towards 7.62. Right now, issue under discussion is the requirement of sufficient space and rails for installation for all kinds of optics which a soldier may be required to install. Lets leave it there, its still under discussion. Moreover, a suggestion changing of calibre from 7.62 to 5.56 for the whole army has also popped up. This is easier said than done since it would require years to change over...equipment, doctrine, scales of ammunition etc....

Revolutionary Roller Locks has made a pretty nice hand guard and receiver/optics base for the MP5 and HK43 556. I suppose a similar, but one-piece receiver can be machined for the BW20 family on PMTF CNCs. It can have as much space and rails as an FN Scar or a similar rife.

Revolutionary Roller Lock's solutions:

 

[Zarvan]

Revolutionary Roller Locks has made a pretty nice hand guard and receiver/optics base for the MP5 and HK43 556. I suppose a similar, but one-piece receiver can be machined for the BW20 family on PMTF CNCs. It can have as much space and rails as an FN Scar or a similar rife.

Revolutionary Roller Lock's solutions:




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Guns from GIDS and Cavalier group has more potential and workable design than Mr Salman design