Pakistan's Service Rifle (G-3, Type-56) Replacement Competition 2016.

[Zarvan]

Hazrat you have not brought a shred of proof other than conspiracies that CZ blew up and Beretta failed test??? Which world are you referring to? Is it some planet which is not Earth?

I am talking about Pakistani trials

 

[Path-Finder]

I am talking about Pakistani trials

I am talking about you providing evidence to back up what you say Hazrat!!

 

[Zarvan]

I am talking about you providing evidence to back up what you say Hazrat!!

I am not going to show you the video trials but your beloved Berreta and BREN both failed the one part of trial. Berreta in accuracy and CZ the endurance test.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It could be similar to the one signed with South Africa.

Yeah. MoUs such as this and the one with South Africa seem to imply that there's government approval (Czech/SA) for sales to Pakistan. Sure, it isn't for everything (e.g. I doubt we'd be able to get the ERA VERA), but CZ, Tatra and Aero can sell their respective stuff.

I am not going to show you the video trials but your beloved Berreta and BREN both failed the one part of trial. Berreta in accuracy and CZ the endurance test.

Just asking, did you see the video trials?

 

[That Guy]

If CZ is chosen in x56 category only and 7.62x51 has to be from different manufacturer, I would like to see ARX as IMO, Italians will have more treats in their bags for other forces (PN/PAF) as well. Taking full advantage of the opportunity is not a bad thing as after all it is a win win for both parties, the seller and buyer. Do we have any thing insight beside SCAR-H from Belgium, as icing on the cake to get the deal done like this?

I firmly believe that PA is going to go for the ARX. The Italians have not only upgraded POF facilities, but I believe they've also signed agreements for the manufacturing of Beretta handguns.

From what I can tell, Beretta seems to be the favorite to replace the G3, while the CZ seems to be the favorite to replace the Type 56.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) please correct me, if I'm wrong.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I firmly believe that PA is going to go for the ARX. The Italians have not only upgraded POF facilities, but I believe they've also signed agreements for the manufacturing of Beretta handguns.

From what I can tell, Beretta seems to be the favorite to replace the G3, while the CZ seems to be the favorite to replace the Type 56.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) please correct me, if I'm wrong.

I can only go by the information available in the public domain, but here's what we have right now:

1. At IDEAS 2016, CZ and POF signed a letter-of-understanding (LoU) to “negotiate delivery of complete technology for the production of small arms … [with] gradual launching of production in Pakistan, ranging from light assembly to maximum localization.”

This was confirmed by CZ recently, with the CZ official saying: "“Recently we have [CZ] signed a letter-of-understanding with POF, and we are ready to transfer, the full transfer (sic) of modern technology from CZ to Pakistan, to POF, so we can produce the most modern and most advanced assault rifles in the world at POF.”

2. At IDEX 2017, POF signed a LoU with Beretta "for the sales of Italian pistols, shotguns and apparel in Pakistan." It will also explore "joint Marketing and cooperation will be made in order to enhance the export marketing." POF and Beretta will also examine other opportunities.

It's worth noting that Argentina's Fabricaciones Militares became a licensed manufacturer of the Beretta ARX-200. If you thought Pakistan's lack of defence funding was a problem, then oh boy, the Argentine military generally has it worse - it says something when they can pick up a license to produce ARX-200 and Px4 handguns.

But seriously, seeing Argentina pick up the license, I wonder if Beretta has a smaller off-the-shelf and scale requirement for the ARX-200.

 

[Zarvan]

I firmly believe that PA is going to go for the ARX. The Italians have not only upgraded POF facilities, but I believe they've also signed agreements for the manufacturing of Beretta handguns.

From what I can tell, Beretta seems to be the favorite to replace the G3, while the CZ seems to be the favorite to replace the Type 56.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) please correct me, if I'm wrong.

Beretta is pretty much out of the competition. SCAR is pretty much done deal to replace G3, Officers are being told about SCAR now

I can only go by the information available in the public domain, but here's what we have right now:

1. At IDEAS 2016, CZ and POF signed a letter-of-understanding (LoU) to “negotiate delivery of complete technology for the production of small arms … [with] gradual launching of production in Pakistan, ranging from light assembly to maximum localization.”

This was confirmed by CZ recently, with the CZ official saying: "“Recently we have [CZ] signed a letter-of-understanding with POF, and we are ready to transfer, the full transfer (sic) of modern technology from CZ to Pakistan, to POF, so we can produce the most modern and most advanced assault rifles in the world at POF.”

2. At IDEX 2017, POF signed a LoU with Beretta "for the sales of Italian pistols, shotguns and apparel in Pakistan." It will also explore "joint Marketing and cooperation will be made in order to enhance the export marketing." POF and Beretta will also examine other opportunities.

It's worth noting that Argentina's Fabricaciones Militares became a licensed manufacturer of the Beretta ARX-200. If you thought Pakistan's lack of defence funding was a problem, then oh boy, the Argentine military generally has it worse - it says something when they can pick up a license to produce ARX-200 and Px4 handguns.

But seriously, seeing Argentina pick up the license, I wonder if Beretta has a smaller off-the-shelf and scale requirement for the ARX-200.

At IDEX 2017 FN was given green signal and Beretta HandGun APX and ShortGuns are the ones Pakistan has shown interest in in fact APX is being tested among other handguns.

 

[That Guy]

I can only go by the information available in the public domain, but here's what we have right now:

1. At IDEAS 2016, CZ and POF signed a letter-of-understanding (LoU) to “negotiate delivery of complete technology for the production of small arms … [with] gradual launching of production in Pakistan, ranging from light assembly to maximum localization.”

This was confirmed by CZ recently, with the CZ official saying: "“Recently we have [CZ] signed a letter-of-understanding with POF, and we are ready to transfer, the full transfer (sic) of modern technology from CZ to Pakistan, to POF, so we can produce the most modern and most advanced assault rifles in the world at POF.”

2. At IDEX 2017, POF signed a LoU with Beretta "for the sales of Italian pistols, shotguns and apparel in Pakistan." It will also explore "joint Marketing and cooperation will be made in order to enhance the export marketing." POF and Beretta will also examine other opportunities.

It's worth noting that Argentina's Fabricaciones Militares became a licensed manufacturer of the Beretta ARX-200. If you thought Pakistan's lack of defence funding was a problem, then oh boy, the Argentine military generally has it worse - it says something when they can pick up a license to produce ARX-200 and Px4 handguns.

But seriously, seeing Argentina pick up the license, I wonder if Beretta has a smaller off-the-shelf and scale requirement for the ARX-200.

Thanks for the info.

Beretta is pretty much out of the competition. SCAR is pretty much done deal to replace G3, Officers are being told about SCAR now

Color me skeptical. I won't believe it, until we get some sort of confirmation.

 

[Arsalan]

I am talking about you providing evidence to back up what you say Hazrat!!

Color me skeptical. I won't believe it, until we get some sort of confirmation.

You guys dont get it, do you?
There is no proof, no confirmation and one is unlikely until an actual deal is signed and we are ready to go into production. Till that time everybody is speculating, some using logic, some using some real information and others using facebook (jo naam ha itemaad ka). So forget any confirmation or proof being shared.
People will keep talking about videos and exploding guns but infact they know 5hit. All there info is based on stories told to them by facebook accounts they follow. However they can and will keep repeating it like a parrort just ignoring the point that they cannot base all there claims and present them with certanities just because one person told them all that. Just forget that anything positive is coming from this. It have nothing to do with any actual info. but its all about personal wish and ego.

On other hand, if you go by logic and some bits and peices of info available you will find that till now, this is what have happened.

1. CZ Bern seem to be leading the way in 7.62x39mm.
2. Any official documentation work, MoU, LoU have been signed with CZ alone.
3. CZ did offered brought ine 7.62x51mm gun to the table, absolutely no idea how much important that development is. All we can do is speculate.
4. SCAR is an excellent platform but have a very troubled history with over half a dozen rejections, both on financial account and performance based. All that matters.
5. While SCAR is good it offer relatively similar capability as offered by some other guns and much lower price. THAT HAVE ALWAYS MATTERED.
6. SCAR have been a priority in x51 category but the CZ leads in x39 and have a x51 option as well (and dealing with one supplier may play some role here) and things are quite mute on the whole procurement process (budget approaching). SCAR is also reported be be coming with an x39 in few months ( Again, dealing with one supplier may be attractive here)

I hope this will help.

P.S. If enough people agree with this post, thank and rate this positive, confirmed of this support I may even start quoting all these points as absolutel certain information on other threads.

That is how it have been friends.

 

[Path-Finder]

I am not going to show you the video trials but your beloved Berreta and BREN both failed the one part of trial. Berreta in accuracy and CZ the endurance test.

Hazrat you now have a video of the trials? If you have it then let's see it as they say put your money where your mouth is and show us the failure? Talk is cheap Hazrat and your FN SCAR if it did well in trials then rest assured it will do extremely badly in day to day usage as proven to you already.

 

[Zarvan]

Hazrat you now have a video of the trials? If you have it then let's see it as they say put your money where your mouth is and show us the failure? Talk is cheap Hazrat and your FN SCAR if it did well in trials then rest assured it will do extremely badly in day to day usage as proven to you already.

CZ failed endurance trials and Beretta failed accuracy trials and this has been confirmed not just by @Horus but various other guys to me. So you want to show anger or what ever that is your issue that won't change the reality

 

[Path-Finder]

You guys dont get it, do you?
There is no proof, no confirmation and one is unlikely until an actual deal is signed and we are ready to go into production. Till that time everybody is speculating, some using logic, some using some real information and others using facebook (jo naam ha itemaad ka). So forget any confirmation or proof being shared.
People will keep talking about videos and exploding guns but infact they know 5hit. All there info is based on stories told to them by facebook accounts they follow. However they can and will keep repeating it like a parrort just ignoring the point that they cannot base all there claims and present them with certanities just because one person told them all that. Just forget that anything positive is coming from this. It have nothing to do with any actual info. but its all about personal wish and ego.

On other hand, if you go by logic and some bits and peices of info available you will find that till now, this is what have happened.

1. CZ Bern seem to be leading the way in 7.62x39mm.
2. Any official documentation work, MoU, LoU have been signed with CZ alone.
3. CZ did offered brought ine 7.62x51mm gun to the table, absolutely no idea how much important that development is. All we can do is speculate.
4. SCAR is an excellent platform but have a very troubled history with over half a dozen rejections, both on financial account and performance based. All that matters.
5. While SCAR is good it offer relatively similar capability as offered by some other guns and much lower price. THAT HAVE ALWAYS MATTERED.
6. SCAR have been a priority in x51 category but the CZ leads in x39 and have a x51 option as well (and dealing with one supplier may play some role here) and things are quite mute on the whole procurement process (budget approaching). SCAR is also reported be be coming with an x39 in few months ( Again, dealing with one supplier may be attractive here)

I hope this will help.

P.S. If enough people agree with this post, thank and rate this positive, confirmed of this support I may even start quoting all these points as absolutel certain information on other threads.

That is how it have been friends.

If I may add one thing! Our Hazrat in the past would give an example of buying a car when talking about trials and the SCAR rifle. I once bought a Renault Clio it was a great car when I test drove it! The emphasis is on test drive it was beyond what I expected thus seeing how well it did in the test drive I purchased the car.

Now here is the thing my test drive went beyond what I anticipated of it, the experience was unlike other car makers. BUT then I had to live with it!! You see the day to day churn of having it became quite difficult for me as it began to cost to keep it as it displayed numerous faults. It looked good and it drove well however it possessed a unfortunate factor of being unreliable! Then I got another Clio but that did slightly better however it would be my last Renault.

If SCAR did well in Trials then hurrah. But as evidence presented here from USSOCOM and other nations like the Colombian chap, after the trials it all falls flat on its ar$e. Multiple people have pointed out the unknown support from FN as well!

Just my POV.

CZ failed endurance trials and Beretta failed accuracy trials and this has been confirmed not just by @Horus but various other guys to me. So you want to show anger or what ever that is your issue that won't change the reality

Lets see it Hazrat? show the Video to us!

 

[PAR 5]

This thread is simply getting boring and annoyingly repetitive with the same narrative day in and day out. Suggest you close it and simply start a new one AS, WHEN and IF Pakistan Armed Forces actually buy SCAR or ARX or a Ghulail for that matter.

 

[Gryphon]

This thread is simply getting boring and annoyingly repetitive with the same narrative day in and day out. Suggest you close it and simply start a new one AS, WHEN and IF Pakistan Armed Forces actually buy SCAR or ARX or a Ghulail for that matter.

Nobody is forcing you watch this thread.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Other then the cost issue
If PA Selects Scar did they Agree to give the TOT of it and to produce it in the POF Pakistan???