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Pakistan’s PL-15 Missile Equipped JF-17 Block 3 is a Serious Game Changer - How India Can Respond to

Not AWACS, I am not aware of any operational AWACS that operates at frequencies high enough to provide targeting data to an AAM. Other fighter assets via satellite comms sure, but then defeats the purpose of a missile with 700 km range - hence, doesn’t make sense.
No not at all, That wasn’t my intent.

I meant that AWACS/Ground Long Range Radars/Remote Sensors/Naval radars->Satellites->AAM (only mid course post launching but before terminal).

I believe in such a scenario, The terminal guidance would also be from much distance, since the PL-1X could be a VLRAAM due to its high fuel capacity in turn giving it range not enough for the small radars on AAMs.

I did laugh on a joke tho that came to my mind reading your post, I imagined an AAM with a fighter size nose but missile size body just to keep track of target
 
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Only pic available ..but its kinda oversize

pl-15-image01.jpg
This is PL XX
PL 15 is already inducted
ieYzqic.jpg
 
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Not AWACS, I am not aware of any operational AWACS that operates at frequencies high enough to provide targeting data to an AAM. Other fighter assets via satellite comms sure, but then defeats the purpose of a missile with 700 km range - hence, doesn’t make sense.
@StormBreaker

The Chinese KJ-500 can guide up to 48 AAM's via datalink.
 
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Most systems are not 'battle tested', even if they are, it means nothing, the Patriot was used extensively in the Gulf, it was a pretty reliable system, however it still has failed at times.

I wouldn't trust Patriot to guard anything important, this is why

 
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I wouldn't trust Patriot to guard anything important, this is why


No system is 100% accurate of course. There will be times where it just doesnt work. We should also look at who is operating said system.
 
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Just a question. With all this lockdown going around and Europe in shutdown mode, what is the current status with the Rafael delivery to India from France?
 
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(Indian perspective)

article_5e788965b9b5b6_68620953.jpg




he Indian Air Force is planning massive investments fo the modernisation of its fighter fleet, and alongside ongoing orders for elite Su-30MKI heavyweight fighters and Rafale and MiG-29 medium fighters the country is pursuing the indigenous Tejas light fighter program and planning additional contracts for foreign jets. The MMRCA competition will select one of seven current contenders from Russia and the West to be manufactured in India under licence, with the MiG-35, Rafale and Su-35 considered the three leading frontrunners. Upgrades to the Su-30MKI are also ongoing ensuring that it will remain the country’s most capable fighter - including the possible integration of the next generation Irbis-E radar, AL-41 engines and R-37M hypersonic missiles which would make it far more potent in air to air combat.





article_5e7888511ae3b1_91862135.jpeg

Rafale Medium Fighter (left) and Su-30MKI Heavyweight Fighters




Despite considerable investments in modernisation, the balance of power in the air with neighbouring Pakistan may soon deteriorate as the Pakistani Air Force pursues a far cheaper modernisation program for its own fighter fleet centred around two main programs - the JF-17 and Project AZM. The most advanced variants of the JF-17 the JF-17B and JF-17 Block 2 currently have capabilities comparable to lower end Indian fighters. These jets are overall slightly superior to the Mirage 2000, but face a considerable disadvantage if facing the MiG-29 or Rafale - let alone the Su-30MKI which would retain an overwhelming advantage across the spectrum. These JF-17 variants nevertheless represent a considerable upgrade for the Pakistani Air Force from reliance on near obsolete J-7 and Mirage III fighters, and currently form the elite of the fleet alongside American F-16C Fighting Falcons. The JF-17 is the only Pakistani fighter other than the F-16 equipped with active radar guided air to air missiles - namely the PL-12 with a 100km range.





article_5e78887d6be483_10099549.jpeg

Pakistani Air Force JF-17 Light Fighter




While the JF-17 Block 2 represents is far from a qualitative peer to the majority of the Indian fleet, the upcoming JF-17 Block 3 variant unveiled in December 2019 appears set to be a game changer for Pakistani aerial warfare capabilities. The fighter integrates some limited stealth features, a more powerful engine, a larger AESA radar, the first ever infra red search and track system on a Pakistani fighter, new electronic warfare systems and PL-15 long range air to air missiles. With an estimated range of 200-300km, the PL-15 will outrange all of India’s existing air to air missiles built for use against fighters - from the 80km range MICA used by Rafale and Mirage 2000 jets to the 110km range R-77 used by the MiG-21, MiG-29 and Su-30MKI. With Pakistan potentially fielding over 100 of these new fighters, including both single and twin seat variants, the JF-17 Block 3 could be a serious game changer.





article_5e788947eb0fb0_75923316.jpg

PL-15 Air to Air Missiles




Indian Air Force veteran Vijainder K Thakur stated in an interview with Russian state media outlet Sputnik regarding the threat posed by the new JF-17 variant that India’s focus on acquiring more capable fighters, at the expense of providing them with sufficiently capable missiles and sensors, could leave aircraft technically superior to the JF-17 such as the Su-30MKI at a disadvantage. He stated to this effect: “The India Air Force allowed itself to be outgunned by focusing on platform acquisitions, rather than weapon system and sensor upgrades. With sufficient military foresight, the IAF could have armed its Su-30MKI with longer range air-to-air missiles acquired from Russia rather than continuing to rely on the lesser ranged missile ordered years ago from Ukraine.” These Russian and Ukranian missiles likely referred to the R-37M and R-77 - the newer Russian missiles - rather than the older R-27 which is today produced in both Russia and Ukraine.





article_5e7888a357cba8_40807365.jpg

R-37M Hypersonic Air to Air Missile




India for its part does have options to regain its advantage. Equipping its small Rafale fleet with Meteor missiles would provide a partial return to parity, although as the Rafales are not built in India it would be more difficult to apply upgrades to the designs as frequently as Pakistan could do for the domestically manufactured JF-17. The performances of the PL-15 and Meteor are considered comparable, although China’s far greater investments in research and development for new air to air missiles means a more capable missile is likely to become available for the JF-17 long before it does for the Rafale. India’s two other leading options would be two purchase the MiG-35, which is highly likely whether as part of the MMRCA deal or otherwise, as these AESA radar equipped fighters can deploy R-37M and possibly K-77 missiles which can comfortably outperform both the PL-15 and the Meteor. Another would be to proceed with upgrading the Su-30MKI with the Irbis-E radar and R-37M missiles - technologies from the Su-35 which would provide it with an overwhelming advantage over the JF-17 Block 3.





article_5e7888cf951b21_17680662.jpeg

Su-57 Next Generation Fighter




Other options which are less likely to be pursued in the immediate future would be to acquire the Su-57 next generation fighter, or else to select the Su-35 as the winner of the MMRCA tender, with these heavyweight jets again retaining a sufficient performance advantage to reliably overcome the new JF-17 variant - and almost certainly its stealthy successor the stealthy Project AZM fighter as well. A Su-57 purchase remains highly likely by the mid-late 2020s, either as part of a licence production deal or as an off the shelf purchase. India is also jointly developing a new hypersonic air to air missile for the Su-30MKI with similar capabilities to the R-37 but a slightly longer range - and while intended primarily to neutralise enemy support aircraft a variant capable of threatening fighters could also become available.




JF-17 Block 3 Fighter Prototype
article_5e788965b9b5b6_68620953_large.jpg

article_5e788965b9b5b6_68620953.jpg

Tags
AL-41Chinese Arms ExportsIndian Air ForceIndian-Pakistani ConflictIrbis-EJF-17JF-17 Block 2JF-17 Block 3JF-17BMMRCAMeteorMiG-35PL-15Pakistani Air ForceR-37R-37MR-77R=27RafaleSu-30Su-30MKISu-35Vijainder K Thakur
having read so much garbage you can predict almost to the full what entails in the pile of manure article.
 
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@StormBreaker

The Chinese KJ-500 can guide up to 48 AAM's via datalink.

I don’t see the point, assuming the PL1X has a range of 700 km do you realize the guiding platform AWACS will have to fly at an altitude of 128,000 ft to maintain line of sight to the missile and the target. Any closer (<200 km)and the slow lumbering AWACS will be targeted by the enemy.

Besides I don’t know of any airborne surveillance radar that operates in the X band. If the Chinese have installed a fire control radar in an AWACS I would seriously question their doctrine.
 
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I don’t see the point, assuming the PL1X has a range of 700 km do you realize the guiding platform AWACS will have to fly at an altitude of 128,000 ft to maintain line of sight to the missile and the target. Any closer (<200 km)and the slow lumbering AWACS will be targeted by the enemy.

Besides I don’t know of any airborne surveillance radar that operates in the X band. If the Chinese have installed a fire control radar in an AWACS I would seriously question their doctrine.


I dont know where the 700km figure has come from. It seems highly unlikely and improbable to have a missile with a range of 700km. Atleast, with todays technology. I think we will just see something along the lines of the K-37ME, carried by larger aircraft such as the JH-7 which can then make use of stealthier platforms closer in for targeting parameters via datalink. 700km on an a2a missile would be absurd. The K-37 is almost 14 feet long, imagine what a missile with almost double the range would be.
 
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I don’t see the point, assuming the PL1X has a range of 700 km do you realize the guiding platform AWACS will have to fly at an altitude of 128,000 ft to maintain line of sight to the missile and the target. Any closer (<200 km)and the slow lumbering AWACS will be targeted by the enemy.

Besides I don’t know of any airborne surveillance radar that operates in the X band. If the Chinese have installed a fire control radar in an AWACS I would seriously question their doctrine.
I can't digest 700 km claim. May be its air to ground cruise missile... stationary target...
 
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(Indian perspective)

article_5e788965b9b5b6_68620953.jpg




he Indian Air Force is planning massive investments fo the modernisation of its fighter fleet, and alongside ongoing orders for elite Su-30MKI heavyweight fighters and Rafale and MiG-29 medium fighters the country is pursuing the indigenous Tejas light fighter program and planning additional contracts for foreign jets. The MMRCA competition will select one of seven current contenders from Russia and the West to be manufactured in India under licence, with the MiG-35, Rafale and Su-35 considered the three leading frontrunners. Upgrades to the Su-30MKI are also ongoing ensuring that it will remain the country’s most capable fighter - including the possible integration of the next generation Irbis-E radar, AL-41 engines and R-37M hypersonic missiles which would make it far more potent in air to air combat.





article_5e7888511ae3b1_91862135.jpeg

Rafale Medium Fighter (left) and Su-30MKI Heavyweight Fighters




Despite considerable investments in modernisation, the balance of power in the air with neighbouring Pakistan may soon deteriorate as the Pakistani Air Force pursues a far cheaper modernisation program for its own fighter fleet centred around two main programs - the JF-17 and Project AZM. The most advanced variants of the JF-17 the JF-17B and JF-17 Block 2 currently have capabilities comparable to lower end Indian fighters. These jets are overall slightly superior to the Mirage 2000, but face a considerable disadvantage if facing the MiG-29 or Rafale - let alone the Su-30MKI which would retain an overwhelming advantage across the spectrum. These JF-17 variants nevertheless represent a considerable upgrade for the Pakistani Air Force from reliance on near obsolete J-7 and Mirage III fighters, and currently form the elite of the fleet alongside American F-16C Fighting Falcons. The JF-17 is the only Pakistani fighter other than the F-16 equipped with active radar guided air to air missiles - namely the PL-12 with a 100km range.





article_5e78887d6be483_10099549.jpeg

Pakistani Air Force JF-17 Light Fighter




While the JF-17 Block 2 represents is far from a qualitative peer to the majority of the Indian fleet, the upcoming JF-17 Block 3 variant unveiled in December 2019 appears set to be a game changer for Pakistani aerial warfare capabilities. The fighter integrates some limited stealth features, a more powerful engine, a larger AESA radar, the first ever infra red search and track system on a Pakistani fighter, new electronic warfare systems and PL-15 long range air to air missiles. With an estimated range of 200-300km, the PL-15 will outrange all of India’s existing air to air missiles built for use against fighters - from the 80km range MICA used by Rafale and Mirage 2000 jets to the 110km range R-77 used by the MiG-21, MiG-29 and Su-30MKI. With Pakistan potentially fielding over 100 of these new fighters, including both single and twin seat variants, the JF-17 Block 3 could be a serious game changer.





article_5e788947eb0fb0_75923316.jpg

PL-15 Air to Air Missiles




Indian Air Force veteran Vijainder K Thakur stated in an interview with Russian state media outlet Sputnik regarding the threat posed by the new JF-17 variant that India’s focus on acquiring more capable fighters, at the expense of providing them with sufficiently capable missiles and sensors, could leave aircraft technically superior to the JF-17 such as the Su-30MKI at a disadvantage. He stated to this effect: “The India Air Force allowed itself to be outgunned by focusing on platform acquisitions, rather than weapon system and sensor upgrades. With sufficient military foresight, the IAF could have armed its Su-30MKI with longer range air-to-air missiles acquired from Russia rather than continuing to rely on the lesser ranged missile ordered years ago from Ukraine.” These Russian and Ukranian missiles likely referred to the R-37M and R-77 - the newer Russian missiles - rather than the older R-27 which is today produced in both Russia and Ukraine.





article_5e7888a357cba8_40807365.jpg

R-37M Hypersonic Air to Air Missile




India for its part does have options to regain its advantage. Equipping its small Rafale fleet with Meteor missiles would provide a partial return to parity, although as the Rafales are not built in India it would be more difficult to apply upgrades to the designs as frequently as Pakistan could do for the domestically manufactured JF-17. The performances of the PL-15 and Meteor are considered comparable, although China’s far greater investments in research and development for new air to air missiles means a more capable missile is likely to become available for the JF-17 long before it does for the Rafale. India’s two other leading options would be two purchase the MiG-35, which is highly likely whether as part of the MMRCA deal or otherwise, as these AESA radar equipped fighters can deploy R-37M and possibly K-77 missiles which can comfortably outperform both the PL-15 and the Meteor. Another would be to proceed with upgrading the Su-30MKI with the Irbis-E radar and R-37M missiles - technologies from the Su-35 which would provide it with an overwhelming advantage over the JF-17 Block 3.





article_5e7888cf951b21_17680662.jpeg

Su-57 Next Generation Fighter




Other options which are less likely to be pursued in the immediate future would be to acquire the Su-57 next generation fighter, or else to select the Su-35 as the winner of the MMRCA tender, with these heavyweight jets again retaining a sufficient performance advantage to reliably overcome the new JF-17 variant - and almost certainly its stealthy successor the stealthy Project AZM fighter as well. A Su-57 purchase remains highly likely by the mid-late 2020s, either as part of a licence production deal or as an off the shelf purchase. India is also jointly developing a new hypersonic air to air missile for the Su-30MKI with similar capabilities to the R-37 but a slightly longer range - and while intended primarily to neutralise enemy support aircraft a variant capable of threatening fighters could also become available.




JF-17 Block 3 Fighter Prototype
article_5e788965b9b5b6_68620953_large.jpg

article_5e788965b9b5b6_68620953.jpg

Tags
AL-41Chinese Arms ExportsIndian Air ForceIndian-Pakistani ConflictIrbis-EJF-17JF-17 Block 2JF-17 Block 3JF-17BMMRCAMeteorMiG-35PL-15Pakistani Air ForceR-37R-37MR-77R=27RafaleSu-30Su-30MKISu-35Vijainder K Thakur

Jf 17 is no worries for India...

Half Tejas Mk1a is more then enough to deal with..
Just need to more focus on Astra AA missile with range approx 150-200 km.

We have bigger challenges from China because they have sufficient number of advanced fighter planes..
 
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Jf 17 is no worries for India...

Half Tejas Mk1a is more then enough to deal with..
Just need to more focus on Astra AA missile with range approx 150-200 km.
Teja already pass expiry date ..don't waste money.. still need more modification to see air combat. Pakistan already tested JF17 on Feb 27th , plus its already on AtoG service along Afghan border on night mission. Pakistan even tested newly modified 1969 Mirage on Feb27.
For real kill , your plane has to be 40 to 25 radius of battle field. 150 or 200 BVR has no value in real battle field scenario.
 
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