Pakistan's Nuclear Submarine Development | News and Discussions

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well its on National TV , then it must be very very very credible as stated the Military Minds have already decided what they want to do and one thing we know is when our People decide on doing something , it normally gets done ...


2012, we have heard major news networks in Pakistan announce the development of Pakistan's nuclear submarines "in 5-8 years". The earliest news of Pakistan's nuclear submarine project was in 2006 when General Musharraf announced that Pakistan now has the technology to build nuclear submarines.

The first point to ponder is that Pakistan, unlike certain other countries, prefers to develop weapon systems quietly. If this kind of announcements are coming out, in all probability Pakistan already has a nuclear submarine, or at minimum critical components, well underway. The most critical component is the nuclear power plant, and the news thus points to the development of a miniature power plant.

suggestions are that Pakistan's nuclear submarine is likely to be based on the Qing Class Chinese SSK, which Pakistan is believed to receive 6 units of. Given the giant size of the Qing Class (5,000-6,000 tons), the submarine is ideally suited as the basis for a Pakistani SSN / SSBN. RUMINT also suggests that Pakistan is seeking a smaller sized nuclear sub that sacrifices speed for simplicity and ease of maintenance. The basic idea is that instead of hydraulic propulsion, the Pakistani subs will utilize an all-electric propulsion system that is charged by the nuclear power plant.

Such an arrangement fits in perfectly for the following reasons:

1. Pakistani SSNs/SSBNs do not need to keep up with a carrier group or large-scale task force; They are likely to operate solo, making the loss of possibly 3-5 knots in speed less relevant.

2. The Qing Class (and other SSKs) already have a highly advanced electric propulsion system. The Pakistani nuclear submarine would thus be a replacement of the diesel engine power generation with a nuclear power plant.

3. Electric propulsion has traditionally lagged behind hydraulic propulsion, but recent advances in the former has significantly reduced the gap in performance between the two.

4. Sets up future improvements in technology which are headed towards magnetohydrodynamic propulsion, saving on investment in hydraulic submarine propulsion which would have been a technological dead-end investment.

Taking a closer look at the possible type of nuclear power plant to be utilized, it is likely to be a small pressurized light water reactor. Such a reactor would require some R&D given that Pakistan does not have much expertise in light water reactors, and because the need for miniaturization. However, given Chinese expertise and potential assistance, this should not prove to be a difficult challenge to overcome. Moreover, Pakistan has a highly qualified and competent nuclear establishment that should be able to meet the challenge, insh'Allah.

Another potential help may have been the transfer of technology from France with the Agosta 90B submarine purchase. A number of key technologies were transferred including design and development skills and tools. Building of hulls and experience with Western subsystems, many of which are used in the French nuclear submarines would help the Pakistani SSN / SSBN, if it already has not found its way to the Chinese Qing Class.

 

[fatman17]

pak media news is not credible.

 

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

Yeap, seems credible. And not to mention the inauguration of Naval Strategic Forces Command by the Naval Chief.
But I never expected it to get a nuclear sub in just 4-5 years. Lets see what happens;

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

What is stopping us from achieving the goal

a) Our Shipbuilding has proven it can delivery the F22P frigates
b) Notice the new batch 4 ships will be built in China meaning that the Local Shipyard will be getting contracts to build Submarines, they want to free up resources in Pakistan to focus on Nuclear submarines

This appears very logical

And when we combine the rumors of acquiring 6 submarines from China together with the news of Pakistan showing intention of a Nuclear Submarine , it really all "ADDs up"

We already have TOT in Submarine building from Agosta Submarine and tools we need and knowledge we already gained

Now the only thing that remains is actual initiative

Lets not forget our Scientist and People promised us Nuclear Bomb , they delivered
They promised Al Khalid Tank and they delivered
They promised us JF17 thunder , and freedom in Air we have achieved it

And now , technology to Make Aircraft carriers obsolete "Nuclear Submarines" a true reality

Normally when news reaches TV outlets like ARY etc that means the situation is so COMMON and real that even a novice News announcer knows the ground reality

I think Pakistan constructed the Agosta Submarines in 3 years was it ? It was pretty fast

 

[Imran Khan]

i told you before they are not sitting and internet is not everything

 

[sachin@india]

Mods should take proactively action to delete this kind of threads ...just like 6 qing class subs for PN..

Anyone who is familiar with developmental cycle of Subs would know it.

 

[Contrarian]

Nuclear propelled submarine or nuclear missile loaded submarine?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Its fairly credible TV / and reputable news anchor , I mean and its also backed up by some defense statements by big people on Pakistan's side that Pakistan will be making the nuclear Submarines

If it was not credible , perhaps we can say something but 5 years is just about right for Pakistani Engineers

I mean ARY is a very credible News source as credible as CNN or BBC I am sure they would not state such a bold statement for thrills , its a known fact in all defense circles its just hitting main stream media to solidify whats happening

Some countries like to buy their toys we just happen to construct our own


Please Note that Pakistan completed its Agostas with in 12 months time frame the first one took 64 months but the other 2 , took only 12 months each

Reference:
Pak Navy to build nuclear submarine,11/11/2012 11:24:09 AM

5 Years makes sense

2014 we are getting 36 J10B Jets , in 2 years from now
2015 we are suppose to get 4 F22p frigates from China -3 years from now
2015 we are also suppose to get our JF17 thunders to 300 fighter jets
2014 we are getting GENESIS upgrade to OHP friagte
2016 We are suppose to get our first Nuclear Submarine

Seems very logical progressive approach to National Defense needs

Reference:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...-turkey-battle-sales-pakistani-arms-fair.html

IDEAS2012 was notable, however, for the competition between Chinese and Turkish defense industries. After domestic defense firms, Chinese and Turkish businesses had far and away the largest presence, with each country booking a hall for their companies.

Turkish companies — such as Havelsan, a defense electronics, software and integration company; Yonca Onuk, a manufacturer of advanced composite patrol craft; and Turkish Aerospace Industries — were all hoping to secure further contracts for their equipment from the Pakistani military.

Havelsan and Yonca Onuk have both been instrumental in aspects of the Pakistani naval modernization program over the past decade. Yonca Onuk has supplied its MRTP-15 and MRTP-33 patrol/fast interception craft, and is now promoting larger more capable developments of these vessels.

According to the Havelsan representative in Pakistan, the company has secured an order for its Genesis combat management system for the Pakistan Navy’s Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate, PNS Alamgir — and Havelsan is pushing ahead with hopes of a very broad range of naval modernization proposals.

TAI, having previously supplied an air warfare test and training range, as well as upgrading Pakistan’s F-16A/B Block-15 fleet, is pushing its T-129 attack helicopter to fulfill Pakistan’s requirements for an AH-1F Cobra replacement.

 

[Imran Khan]

Mods should take proactively action to delete this kind of threads ...just like 6 qing class subs for PN..

Anyone who is familiar with developmental cycle of Subs would know it.

whats you have problem dear ? why you no leave the thread simply and go away ?

 

[sachin@india]

whats you have problem dear ? why you no leave the thread simply and go away ?

bring something concrete then talk...

mods please delete the thread... Nukes subs are not jinnies who come out of a chirag when u rub it.

 

[KRAIT]

whats you have problem dear ? why you no leave the thread simply and go away ?

Why you worried ? No work today ? Make a troll thread in Member's club yaar, bore ho rahe hain. BTW maine jo bataya tha woh kaam kiya ki nahin. ?

 

[fatman17]

Experts Wary of Pakistan Nuke Claims


Few Details Available on Naval Strike Capability

May. 26, 2012

By USMAN ANSARI


ISLAMABAD — Days after Pakistan hinted that it possesses a sea-based second nuclear strike capability, Indian Defence Ministry officials remained silent on the matter, and outside observers were skeptical that the Navy had such a capability.

On May 19, the head of the Pakistan Navy, Adm. Asif Sandhila, inaugurated the Headquarters of the Naval Strategic Force Command (NSFC). A press release by the military’s Inter Services Public Relations stated the NSFC “will perform a pivotal role in development and employment of the Naval Strategic Force,” and was “the custodian of the nation’s 2nd strike capability.”

Beyond the announcement, Pakistan’s Navy has said little about the office or about the service’s capabilities.

In February, Sandhila told Defense News that the Pakistan Navy was mindful of India’s plans to complete the sea-based arm of its nuclear triad, and was “taking necessary measures to restore the strategic balance” in the Indian Ocean region.

Christian Le Mière, a research fellow for naval forces and maritime security at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, said Pakistan’s sea-based deterrent is “most likely” the widely speculated submarine-launched variant of the Babur/Hatf-7 (Vengeance-7) cruise missile.

“The Babur is already nuclear-capable and is expected to be used on submarines,” he said. “I have not seen verifiable evidence of any tests for a submarine-launched version, but it is perfectly feasible that a [submarine-launched cruise missile] is now available.”

Analyst Usman Shabbir, with the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, said Pakistan has been working on its sea-based deterrent for some time.

“When the Babur was first revealed in 2005, it was claimed that it is mainly designed to be deployed from submarines. There was at least that speculation,” he said.

The Navy “has pretty good experience in using similar systems; for example, both submarine-launched Harpoon and Exocet [missiles] use a similar system, and [the Navy] has operated both for a long time.”

Shabbir speculated that the Babur/Hatf-7 missiles might be fired from torpedo tubes, similar to UGM-84 Harpoons.

But Le Mière believes there may still be some room for doubt.

“The phrase ‘sea-based second strike’ suggests a surface vessel could also be used if a submarine-launched version is not yet ready,” he said. “But obviously, while a surface vessel is mobile, it is far less survivable and far more detectable than a sub.”

As for Pakistan’s neighbor to the east, Harsh Pant, international relations lecturer at the Department of Defence Studies at King’s College in London, said India is neither alarmed nor disadvantaged by this development.

“India had factored this reality into its force posture much before this acknowledgement,” Pant said. “I do not see this changing the ground reality, insofar [as the] India-Pakistan nuclear posture is concerned. Despite what outsiders might think, nuclear deterrence in South Asia remains robust.

“The real problem remains the role of non-state actors,” he added. “In that context, Pakistan’s sea-based second strike capability is more reassuring, because the non-state actors will not have as easy access to it as the land- or air-based one.”

He said, “Indian policymakers should welcome this development, as it removes the veil of secrecy over this issue.”

New Delhi analyst Nitin Mehta also cast doubt on Pakistan’s nuclear maritime capability.

“It is unlikely that Pakistan has the capability to design and develop a sea-based nuclear missile, since even China, which is known to be helping Pakistan in its nuclear capabilities, does not possesses a credible submarine-launched missile,” he said. “Pakistan could be developing an undersea nuclear ballistic missile, but it cannot do it on its own.”

Other analysts are not certain the Pakistan Navy can afford to undertake the responsibility of the nation’s second-strike capability.

Brian Cloughley, a former Australian defense attaché to Islamabad, said the size of Pakistan’s submarine force is too small to carry out such a task.

“Pakistan’s current submarine fleet is not adequate in numbers [although well-trained] to be able to undertake detection and effective interdiction of the Indian fleet, given its size — which is increasing, even if slowly,” he said.

Pakistan has two refurbished 1970s-era Agosta-70 and three 1990s-era Agosta-90B subs. The latter are equipped with air independent propulsion (AIP) or are in the process of being retrofitted with the AIP module, and incrementally entered service beginning in 1999.

Le Mière believes Pakistan could, at a stretch, maintain a constant deterrent patrol.

“Once all the Agosta-90Bs are fitted with AIP, this should theoretically allow for one submarine deployed for most of the time, with another in refit and another in reserve,” he said. “In theory, this allows for constant patrols, but in reality, problems with boats usually lead to gaps if there is a three-boat fleet.”

Le Mière conceded, though, this would cause other problems.

“This would be the majority of the Pakistani fleet dedicated to nuclear strike, or certainly dedicating a significant portion of its arsenal to nuclear-tipped Baburs,” he said. “Hence, whether this second-strike capability will in fact be deployed in a form of near-constant at-sea deterrence is questionable until Pakistan is able to procure further submarines to fill the conventional role, as well.”

Cloughley said the interdiction of India’s fleet “must remain [the Navy’s] first priority,” and he considers “conversion of the present assets to take Babur not only costly, but a most regrettable diversion of budget allocation.

“I would go so far as to say that, in present circumstances, it would be a grave error if such a program were to go ahead,” he added.

Pakistan has a requirement for 12 to 14 subs to meet Navy expansion plans. This would allow for a constant war patrol of at least one deterrent-tasked submarine, leaving other submarines to carry out more traditional tasks.

However, Cloughley is still certain that Pakistan does not require such a capability.

“[Pakistan] has plenty of nuclear-capable SSMs and strike aircraft, and does not need a Navy-oriented second-strike capability,” he said.

Correspondent Vivek Raghuvanshi in New Delhi contributed to this report.

 

[angeldude13]

nuclear submarine in 5 years ?
lets wait and watch

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Why don't we need a sea based Surprise Nuclear capability ?

I think its a modest increase in Pakistan's Navy's capabilities to be inline with development world wide

I mean by 2015 , we should have 16-17 Frigates and doubters stated before that Pakistan Navy could not operate that many frigates

Before people said we can't make Submarines , we did and we sure made 2 not one .. to proof that we can do it , and we constructed 2 , 1 each 12 months

So what is different ? Now just nuclear engine , and yes we have allocated 4-5 years that is sufficient after all we do have know how how to make Nuclear plants , we are just constructing a smaller version


Local development of Nuclear Submarine would be a sure slap in face of doubters who rejoiced when Germany backed out of Traditional submarines before ..

In end Pakistan will get a better Submarine , and nuclear powered one with Nuclear Arsenal

 

[SamranAli]

it seems true as Mushy rumoured back in 2006 about nuclear sub, now its 6 year gone already may be 5 are enough if work is going on...