PAKISTAN’S MIRAGES: SPECIALISTS ENDURING OUT OF NECESSITY

[MastanKhan]

a true baba: but he does make some solid points which people knowing the in and outs of our Pakistani mindset(be it PAF or railways) can tell.
But until they are backed up by technical knowledge, they start to sound like rants.

Hi,

That is why---there is a team that is needed to project your agenda---. One takes care of one important aspect---the other charges on with the other.

 

[MastanKhan]

Look friend, what is being noted by Mastan is valid. The mere fact that you give too much credibility to any one wearing a uniform having better gray cells is a shame on itself. If that is the case you can see the mess your country is in overall in terms of priorities - education, health, R&D, infrastructure etc. If these were correct, scientific panels and technical authorities would be the guides overall; armed forces are just a user of services not the makers.
For jH-7, he has pointed out the valid point; Rose aircrafts right now are solely to deliver Raad; they lack terrain following, range, payload. In comparison, you need a moderate force of specialised jH-7 and with the advent of Jh-7b with AESA and ability to carry a fairly heafty payload. Mastan took words out of my mouth when there was no concern of running A5s, Jh-7s provided a golden opportunity with B version. In the past when it was evaluated threats were different and neither were raads around or massive threat of offshore blockades.
Flankers are not the remedy given the poor supply chain and quality russians bring to the table.
The mere fact that PAF is running 50 year old jets that belong in graveyards shows the lack of foresight or insight overall not a matter of pride.

@denel
I used to ask my young colleagues here---switch the position---.

Just imagine---that the Paf has the SU30's---Mirage 2k's Jaguarss and Mig29's and the enemy has old F16's and some JF17's----.

I asked them to now tell me---how much are you going to laugh at the enemy when he says his JF17's are superior---.

That is a basic car sales 101 training---put yourself in customers shoes and observe how he looks at you---.

 

[Shabi1]

JH-7 was a decent option just as the Mirage F-1 was for PAF but have to move forward now. I did some searching even in China it is more of a support aircraft for anti ship and electronic warfare roles. No longer viewed as a multirole aircraft that could stand its ground. Flanker variants have taken over several roles the JH-7 was employed for. For naval strike PN P-3Cs are very potent missile trucks. Plus Pakistan now has and is introducingvery potent land and sea based anti ship missiles. PNs most aggressive offensive punch against Indian navy will be its attack submarines.

Officially it has been stated by ACM that Mirages will be around till project Azm becomes available so the Azm will replace the Mirage. So all of our replacement arguing is useless against the official statement.

Personally of the opinion PAF should save up and wait for a low observable platform capable of deep strike role but if PAF desperately needs a urgent new strike aircraft than SU-35K makes more sense specially with the rumors that new deliveries are highly customized and Russians agreed to let integration of Chinese components for Chinese munition integration. (needs confirmation)

No option but to wait and see.

Pakistan s economy is being geared towards recovery and conflict/war is something that will have to be avoided at least the next 5yrs or it will bring the whole region down. War mongering is not an option. We have room to wait and work on defensive needs till then. JH-7 is solely a strike aircraft. Multirole can bought on guise of modernization. But again next five years expectation is only JF-17s and capacity building for local industry.

 

[CriticalThought]

@denel
I used to ask my young colleagues here---switch the position---.

Just imagine---that the Paf has the SU30's---Mirage @k's Jaguarss and Mig29's and the enemy has old F16's and some JF17's----.

I asked them to now tell me---how much are you going to laugh at the enemy when he says his JF17's are superior---.

That is a basic car sales 1012 training---put yourself in customers shoes and observe how he looks at you---.

Of course, only a car salesman would laugh. Without looking at the actual performance, without considering that Thunder has now held its own against Chinese J-11, Arab F-15s, EFTs, and all types of F-16s, obviously an idiotic enemy will only laugh. He who laughs last...

 

[denel]

Of course, only a car salesman would laugh. Without looking at the actual performance, without considering that Thunder has now held its own against Chinese J-11, Arab F-15s, EFTs, and all types of F-16s, obviously an idiotic enemy will only laugh. He who laughs last...

That is not nice comment back.
We donot have true evaluation on how it has performed against these aircraft from independent sources; last note against J-11, it struggled. It is a compromise aircraft and you cannot expect a Corolla to hold against a Mustang if your analogy is correct of comparison.
Whether it was jh-7 or j-11, a new platform is required. Once more the narrow mindset of designers - would it not have been prudent to have the jf-17 carriage higher tad bit to match mirage so that raad could have been housed - or vice versa. Irrespective, PAF is at the same position France had been back 3 decades back where Mirage IV was used in a strategic role.
The role of a deep strike aircraft needs to be filled whether it is j11 or jh-7b or something else.

 

[denel]

JH-7 was a decent option just as the Mirage F-1 was for PAF but have to move forward now. I did some searching even in China it is more of a support aircraft for anti ship and electronic warfare roles. No longer viewed as a multirole aircraft that could stand its ground. Flanker variants have taken over several roles the JH-7 was employed for. For naval strike PN P-3Cs are very potent missile trucks. Plus Pakistan now has and is introducingvery potent land and sea based anti ship missiles. PNs most aggressive offensive punch against Indian navy will be its attack submarines.

Officially it has been stated by ACM that Mirages will be around till project Azm becomes available so the Azm will replace the Mirage. So all of our replacement arguing is useless against the official statement.

Personally of the opinion PAF should save up and wait for a low observable platform capable of deep strike role but if PAF desperately needs a urgent new strike aircraft than SU-35K makes more sense specially with the rumors that new deliveries are highly customized and Russians agreed to let integration of Chinese components for Chinese munition integration. (needs confirmation)

No option but to wait and see.

Pakistan s economy is being geared towards recovery and conflict/war is something that will have to be avoided at least the next 5yrs or it will bring the whole region down. War mongering is not an option. We have room to wait and work on defensive needs till then. JH-7 is solely a strike aircraft. Multirole can bought on guise of modernization. But again next five years expectation is only JF-17s and capacity building for local industry.

Lets see but Azm or 5th gen steath is something i am vocal about in that it is a major hype. In reality there are ways to overcome its advantages as i have noted above.

 

[MastanKhan]

JH-7 was a decent option just as the Mirage F-1 was for PAF but have to move forward now. I did some searching even in China it is more of a support aircraft for anti ship and electronic warfare roles. No longer viewed as a multirole aircraft that could stand its ground. Flanker variants have taken over several roles the JH-7 was employed for. For naval strike PN P-3Cs are very potent missile trucks. Plus Pakistan now has and is introducingvery potent land and sea based anti ship missiles. PNs most aggressive offensive punch against Indian navy will be its attack submarines.

Hi,

P3C's are sitting ducks---.

You are giving an example of an aircraft P3C that has to fly at 30000 ft prop aircraft flying at 350 knots to a Mach 2 aircraft designed for low flight ---come on guy---please don't lose it---.

A multi role aircraft is not the need for a heavy naval strike aircraft---.

China has 20 different projects for aircraft---to show off and to show the public---they are forced to project their new aircraft.

The JH7A is still their go to aircraft---. The J11's etc are just being projected into a position that they are not ready for yet---.

Land base missiles are last resort---.

Do you people never learn battle tactics---. Basic fundamental---fight a war farthest away from your soil---.

Fixed static targets are an easy target for the enemy---. It is the aircraft strike that the enemy fears the most---.

The strike aircraft equipped with AShM will keep the enemy another 300-500 miles away from your shores---.

 

[JPMM]

Hi,

P3C's are sitting ducks---.

You are giving an example of an aircraft P3C that has to fly at 30000 ft prop aircraft flying at 350 knots to a Mach 2 aircraft designed for low flight ---come on guy---please don't lose it---.

A multi role aircraft is not the need for a heavy naval strike aircraft---.

China has 20 different projects for aircraft---to show off and to show the public---they are forced to project their new aircraft.

The JH7A is still their go to aircraft---. The J11's etc are just being projected into a position that they are not ready for yet---.

Land base missiles are last resort---.

Do you people never learn battle tactics---. Basic fundamental---fight a war farthest away from your soil---.

Fixed static targets are an easy target for the enemy---. It is the aircraft strike that the enemy fears the most---.

The strike aircraft equipped with AShM will keep the enemy another 300-500 miles away from your shores---.

Sorry Mr. MK, P3 Orion will work just fine, you just have to employ it along TASMO (Tactical Air Support Maritime Operations) NATO regulations. Its just part of a big team of Aircraft with several jobs, together they will solve all the needs the Navy has.
You are looking to the PAF as it will work by itself, just like the Army in Kargil. Thats roung.

There is a Navy Task Group (mabe 3-4 FFGs+1-2 Subs+1 Supply Ship), abouve it n the sky, its a TASMO Group, operating from Mainland/Islands/Aircraft Carriers/Ships Organic Aircraft.
It is a mix of:
-MPA aircraft performing ASW & long range reconaissance;
-Fighters performing CAP;
-Fighters

performing ​

Antiship role;
-ELINT aircraft for surveillance;
-SAR Helicopters;
-AEW

aircraft for control;
-Air Tankers for augmenting the fleet permanence;​

You have all that in Pakistan, just have to now to use it.
I have been in Azores Islands for years, I was Army, the Portuguese Navy had included a Landing Force in the Navy Task Groups abord FFGs and I have seen it works!
Here in NATO we have learned a lot from Falklands experience in 1982 from both sides.

Did you Know that Pakistan P3 were upgraded here in Portugal by OGMA?
Imagine what can happen to a Navy Task Group if a P3 loaded with 8 Harpoon gets within 100km range at low altitude, with a Submarine near for final guidance and final torpedo trust! What ship will shute dawn 8 Harpoons, What?? Indian Carrier Group??

LOO FLYING (Try to detect and intercept it)

Take a look of a Portuguese P3 performing on a US Navy Vessel


Thanks​

 

[alee92nawaz]

In April 2018, the AFP News Agency published an article detailing its visit to the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC).[1] The complete AFP article is available on Dawn News, but it provides an insight into the MRF’s activities in keeping the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) Dassault Mirage III and 5 fighters serviceable, especially with much of the fleet averaging 50 years in terms of airframe age.[2]

Interestingly, AFP was able to extract the reason why the PAF persists with operating the Mirage III/5, i.e. its continuing value as an effective strike aircraft, which the PAF Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani described as a “very agile aircraft capable of penetrating deep into the enemy’s territory without being detected by radar, which makes its sole mission — to drop bombs on the enemy’s position — quite easy.”[3]

Since its introduction to the PAF fleet in the late 1960s, the Mirage III/5 has transitioned from being the PAF’s mainstay high-tech fighter in the 1970s to a complementary asset to the newer F-16 in the 1980s. Today, the Mirage III/5 may not command as much attention as the F-16 and JF-17 as an air-to-air asset, but it is significantly more than just a valuable strike fighter – it is the PAF’s prime strike asset.

This prominence stems from two factors.

First is the straightforward reality that the PAF has not yet been able to secure a suitable successor. The cause primarily stems from a lack of funding (i.e. cash on-hand or financing mechanisms such as a supplier line-of-credit), but a limited pool of willing suppliers with aircraft that can substantively improve upon the Mirage III/5 to warrant the costly shift to a new platform.

Second, the Mirage III/5 is the PAF’s sole delivery platform for key stand-off weapons (SOW), namely the H-2 and H-4 glide-bombs (which are derived from the Denel Dynamics Raptor I and Raptor II – ranges of 60 km and 120 km, respectively) and Ra’ad I and Ra’ad II air-launched cruise missiles (ALCM), which have ranges of 350 km and 550 km, respectively. The Mirage 5PA3 can also carry the MBDA AM39 Exocet anti-ship missile (AShM). Prior to the C-802-equipped JF-17, the Mirage 5PA3 was the PAF’s only AShW asset – it still operates from the Masroor Air Base through the No. 32 Tactical Wing.

They need to be replaced by something better and heavy hitting than thunders۔ maybe more " ghatak larako weman eff solah "

 

[alee92nawaz]

Yes, it should; height is good so taking on should be fine. Only issue with Su-34 is the Russian maintenance; parts supply chain never reliable.

Also pakistan can't just go and buy any russian jet

 

[MastanKhan]

Sorry Mr. MK, P3 Orion will work just fine, you just have to employ it along TASMO (Tactical Air Support Maritime Operations) NATO regulations. Its just part of a big team of Aircraft with several jobs, together they will solve all the needs the Navy has.
You are looking to the PAF as it will work by itself, just like the Army in Kargil. Thats roung.

There is a Navy Task Group (mabe 3-4 FFGs+1-2 Subs+1 Supply Ship), abouve it n the sky, its a TASMO Group, operating from Mainland/Islands/Aircraft Carriers/Ships Organic Aircraft.
It is a mix of:
-MPA aircraft performing ASW & long range reconaissance;
-Fighters performing CAP;
-Fighters

performing ​

Antiship role;
-ELINT aircraft for surveillance;
-SAR Helicopters;
-AEW

aircraft for control;
-Air Tankers for augmenting the fleet permanence;​

You have all that in Pakistan, just have to now to use it.
I have been in Azores Islands for years, I was Army, the Portuguese Navy had included a Landing Force in the Navy Task Groups abord FFGs and I have seen it works!
Here in NATO we have learned a lot from Falklands experience in 1982 from both sides.

Did you Know that Pakistan P3 were upgraded here in Portugal by OGMA?
Imagine what can happen to a Navy Task Group if a P3 loaded with 8 Harpoon gets within 100km range at low altitude, with a Submarine near for final guidance and final torpedo trust! What ship will shute dawn 8 Harpoons, What?? Indian Carrier Group??

LOO FLYING (Try to detect and intercept it)

Take a look of a Portuguese P3 performing on a US Navy Vessel


Thanks​

Hi,

Our primary discussion was from flying over the water to land strike mission on the coastline of our main enemy---. Primary target being mumbai---and flying from Pasni---.

Aircraft flying from Pasni flying 400-500 miles parallel to the enemy coastline---then at a certain point making a left turn and from a distance of 200 + miles---letting go of the LR air to surface Hatf V111 or the CM400AKG---.

Please share with us how would the P3 acheive that.

 

[khanasifm]

All mirages will be replaced by jf 25 and 27 will most probably last sqn and may be replaced by new type down the road if block 3 or 4 does not meet the standard but jf already surpassed mirage in range and external load, integration of arm already completed and not sure about rest of goodies which is claimed by Chinese on last launch already completed as well i.e. raad

Left over is h-2 and 4 but not sure if paf will like South African decommission or integrate in jf as most of other goodies now provide same capability like Pak Jdams etc

 

[CriticalThought]

That is not nice comment back.
We donot have true evaluation on how it has performed against these aircraft from independent sources; last note against J-11, it struggled. It is a compromise aircraft and you cannot expect a Corolla to hold against a Mustang if your analogy is correct of comparison.
Whether it was jh-7 or j-11, a new platform is required. Once more the narrow mindset of designers - would it not have been prudent to have the jf-17 carriage higher tad bit to match mirage so that raad could have been housed - or vice versa. Irrespective, PAF is at the same position France had been back 3 decades back where Mirage IV was used in a strategic role.
The role of a deep strike aircraft needs to be filled whether it is j11 or jh-7b or something else.

Yes, of course it wasn't a nice comment.

Let's follow the chain of logic here. An aircraft has participated in exercises against the top aircraft of the world. We have had comments on this very forum of the sort:

1. Once the Thunder bites, it doesn't let go easily.
2. The combination of AEWACS+Thunder is extremely hard to detect.
3. The Thunder held its own in the recent exercises in Saudi.

In this background, you hold on to one single incident of J-11 beating two Thunders, and you call it 'the Thunder struggled'. At best thus is called tunnel vision. At worst, it reflects jealousy and hatred.

Let's look at it from another perspective. If there is some aspect of Pakistan Armed Forces that can be called laughable, it is the Navy. Well, we can clearly see billions of dollars being poured into it. If our current status of air defence is as laughable as MastanKhan and yourself make it out to be, rest assured billions would be poured into the air force as well. No one compromises on security.

Yes, people who are professionals, people who live their entire lives as uniformed officers, there opinions and decisions are far more meritorious than trolls on the internet.

 

[denel]

Yes, of course it wasn't a nice comment.

Let's follow the chain of logic here. An aircraft has participated in exercises against the top aircraft of the world. We have had comments on this very forum of the sort:

1. Once the Thunder bites, it doesn't let go easily.
2. The combination of AEWACS+Thunder is extremely hard to detect.
3. The Thunder held its own in the recent exercises in Saudi.

In this background, you hold on to one single incident of J-11 beating two Thunders, and you call it 'the Thunder struggled'. At best thus is called tunnel vision. At worst, it reflects jealousy and hatred.

Let's look at it from another perspective. If there is some aspect of Pakistan Armed Forces that can be called laughable, it is the Navy. Well, we can clearly see billions of dollars being poured into it. If our current status of air defence is as laughable as MastanKhan and yourself make it out to be, rest assured billions would be poured into the air force as well. No one compromises on security.

Yes, people who are professionals, people who live their entire lives as uniformed officers, there opinions and decisions are far more meritorious than trolls on the internet.

Sorry friend, I am not a troll. I served with distinction in our forces here and lead multiple complex ECM/EW/radio comms projects with various top defence firms with 2 patents in the field of crytography. I am stating wearing a uniform gives you no right to be above others in terms of evaluating or developing technologies; you are just a user. That is the difference which you are not getting. These are the same people who failed to capitalise on Cheetah when it was in front of them but choose to go with ROSE programs. What else can I say, I led the team which built the hoppers that are on your Mirages.



What facts are there that Thunder will not "let go"? It has no hms/high offbore capability; I am confident, Mig-21 bison upgrades from IAF will more than likely take it down.

We need facts not wild conjecture. To this point, we have not even seen Thunders take on F-7PG either.

 

[denel]

Also pakistan can't just go and buy any russian jet

Onc russian have you on the hook, you are tied to them for parts; reliability is bad overall. Look at IAF's flankers how many remain combat ready?