PAKISTAN’S MIRAGES: SPECIALISTS ENDURING OUT OF NECESSITY

[HRK]

It did not even have an ESCORT either---.

@1:19

detail documentary

At 1255 GMT on Sunday 7 June 1981, eight Israeli F-16 fighter-bombers take off along with two F-15 interceptors from Etzion air force base in Egypt's Sinai Desert (occupied at the time by Israel).

A number of other F-15s head elsewhere in Iraq as back-up.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5020778.stm

 

[CHI RULES]

Sir,

I have been telling you guys to use your intelligence---but you kids don't---.

The israeli F16 that destroyed the Osirak Reactor had no missiles for self protection---.

It had no bullets for the canon---it had every accessory taken out that was not meant for flight---. It did not even have an ESCORT either---.

The only thing it had was the bombs and the large fuel tanks---and not even a FLY SWAT to kill a fly---.

It went in alone---no F16's or F15's to protect it---the JEW BOY flew in alone to destroy the Iraqi reactor---fearful he might have been---but a coward he was not---.

He knew he was on a one way ticket with a very little chance of coming back alive---.

You pakistani kids have NO LEARNING ability---I keep telling you guys and after sheer ignorance---you kids keep repeating the same things again and again---" the aircraft " has no protection---.

Yes---bombers---strike air craft go in without self protection weapons---if you did not know why even though I have been writing for 12 years on this board---because they are not allowed to defend themselves---their only target and goal is to reach the target and drop the bombs and if possible come back---.

If they had self protection gear---that is what they would be doing---trying to protect themselves and forgetting the primary goal---.

It amazes me that when educated adults like you do not have the ability to grasp at a concept---listen and learn or have the ability to search and read---I feel pity for the illiterate and the young---.

Hopeless---totally hopeless---.




Hi,

Now you must understand that those figures were for fighter aircraft---and not for bombers who do not have to jettison their tanks to launch their standoff weapons from 250 miles distance---.

With the invent of " standoff weapons " the term strike radius has to be re-defined "---because the aircraft does not use the same techniques as it did in the older bmobing type runs---.

Second thing is---the JH7A is able to carry 9000KG of ordinance---so two 1000---1100 KG missiles---and rest extra fuel tanks---no missiles---no machine gun / canon / no canon shells---nothing extra---.

A strike mission to Mumbai would be the same type as was on the Osirak reactor---. Just a bare bones aircraft with fuel and bombs---.

Mar 19, 2018#1

And as for the low flight---if you had not read the first post---here it is---.

The JH7 is an as true a copy of the F111 ( the ultimate low flying bomber ) minus the swing wings---.

This aircraft is desinged for low flight from gitgo and so are the engines designed for the same task as well---.

Hi,

Bombers loiter time---!!!!! Loiter time is mainly related to the fighter aircraft---bombers normally don't circle around waiting to go in---.

Because once detected---they are an easy prey---.




Hi,

Let me share it with you as well---. When fighting a larger foe---your primary goal has to be able to target the farthest of enemies cities from you---if you cannot---you are doomed.

I had thought that educated pakistanis would have learnt that by now---.

The prime example in front of us is the usa---.

Why does the US wage wars on any and every nation that it can---because those nations cannot reach its shores and mainland cities---so it does not bother the US to go and kill anyone and everyone at its discretion in AFG---Iraq---Libya---Syria---Vietnam---south america---or 2nd WW germany and Japan.

Ferry range is empty weight plus the 3 fuel tanks---.

Sir sorry but Indian defenses are way better then from Iraq or Syria had. The Arab armies are mere skeleton of what they were in the beginning of Islam.
The KSA and it's allies are facing stiff resistance in Yemen despite having latest tech.

The Syrian site was still under construction had no Air defenses,
In case of Iraq , in their missions, the Israelis discovered a blind area on Iraqi radar, on the border with Saudi Arabia. While the Iraqis were aware of the blind area, they did not remedy the problem because they did not expect a war with Saudi Arabia.
a flight of Israeli Air Force F-16A fighter aircraft, with an escort of F-15As, bombed and heavily damaged the Osirak reactor.

PA is not facing such dumb enemies, Indian defenses are far better they have low to high altitude radar and SAM coverage.
The low flying tactics are now far old and outdated. Please do check your statements neither you nor I have served in PAF at any position, so stop giving judgement please if u can.

The JH 7/7A are easily available yet PAF not considering them as they are not fit for job. Even the pros shall confirm that a J10C/J16 shall be far better and suited for Pak then JH7A. We do not have Jets to provide top cover. The next era is of stealth and countermeasures against enemy not just flying low or attack from longer ranges. For longer ranges we already have CMs/BMs. We require deep strike jets to make pin point strikes.

 

[MastanKhan]

MastanKhan said: ↑
It did not even have an ESCORT either---.

@1:19

detail documentary

Hi,

So 90% of the information that i mentioned is correct---and you are harping about the 10%---!!!!!!!

Sir sorry but Indian defenses are way better then from Iraq or Syria had. The Arab armies are mere skeleton of what they were in the beginning of Islam.
The KSA and it's allies are facing stiff resistance in Yemen despite having latest tech.

The Syrian site was still under construction had no Air defenses,
In case of Iraq , in their missions, the Israelis discovered a blind area on Iraqi radar, on the border with Saudi Arabia. While the Iraqis were aware of the blind area, they did not remedy the problem because they did not expect a war with Saudi Arabia.
a flight of Israeli Air Force F-16A fighter aircraft, with an escort of F-15As, bombed and heavily damaged the Osirak reactor.

PA is not facing such dumb enemies, Indian defenses are far better they have low to high altitude radar and SAM coverage.
The low flying tactics are now far old and outdated. Please do check your statements neither you nor I have served in PAF at any position, so stop giving judgement please if u can.

The JH 7/7A are easily available yet PAF not considering them as they are not fit for job. Even the pros shall confirm that a J10C/J16 shall be far better and suited for Pak then JH7A. We do not have Jets to provide top cover. The next era is of stealth and countermeasures against enemy not just flying low or attack from longer ranges. For longer ranges we already have CMs/BMs. We require deep strike jets to make pin point strikes.

Hi,

If that is the case---then why not make peace and let bygones be bygones.

 

[CHI RULES]

MastanKhan said: ↑
It did not even have an ESCORT either---.



Hi,

So 90% of the information that i mentioned is correct---and you are harping about the 10%---!!!!!!!



Hi,

If that is the case---then why not make peace and let bygones be bygones.

U are boss here

 

[GriffinsRule]

Id say the 10% you were wrong about is crucial to success no? Unless, as I had earlier said, you might be envisioning sending PAF pilots on a 1-way mission in a JH-7 with a low probability of success, then yes "Pakistan" should buy these rust buckets from China.

 

[HRK]

MastanKhan said: ↑
It did not even have an ESCORT either---.



Hi,

So 90% of the information that i mentioned is correct---and you are harping about the 10%---!!!!!!!

Janab I read only that 10% part which I quoted so wont comment about the rest of 90%

 

[MastanKhan]

Id say the 10% you were wrong about is crucial to success no? Unless, as I had earlier said, you might be envisioning sending PAF pilots on a 1-way mission in a JH-7 with a low probability of success, then yes "Pakistan" should buy these rust buckets from China.

Janab I read only that 10% part which I quoted so wont comment about the rest of 90%

Hi,

I had read a very authentic paper on this trip----it had stated the last miles 100-150 plus miles were all done alone---.


Did the video say F15's---or just F16's

" On 7 June 1981, a flight of Israeli Air Force F-16A fighter aircraft, with an escort of F-15As, bombed and heavily damaged the Osirakreactor.[10 "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera


This one now talks of F16's only or did I miss the F15's

"For the operation in Iraq, the air force used F-16 fighter jets, which had to traverse a distance of 1,000 km—with some flying over Saudi Arabia—to reach the reactor, which was set to go live within a year"

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5188006,00.html

With the Israelis---there is so much information and more dis-information as well---.

You kids can try and prove me wrong---none of the superstars have been able to do that so far for the last 13 years now---. New comers are welcome---.

I maybe mistaken---but I am still within the parameters of reason.

 

[GriffinsRule]

I maybe mistaken---but I am still within the parameters of reason.

Do you really believe that? Even if what you state about no F-15s being present is correct (which it is not), you are comparing ill-equipped and semi-professional Arab air forces of the day to present day Indian Air Force which is not only technically ahead of the PAF it is also just as competent and professional despite what you might read from the more avid supporters of the home team.

But the gist of your argument in support of JH-7 is flawed and the example you give trying to justify your incorrect position just further erodes whatever your parameters of reason are.

Lets do a comparison of the two situations.
Mission:
IAF vs IQAF; Surprised attack on an installation from the West when IQAF is busy fighting the IRIAF on the East, using a known gap in radar coverage.
PAF vs IAF; No surprises once hostilities start and InAF will have all eyes on PAF and any intruding aircraft, and given the threat PAF poses, India has made sure there are no gaps in coverage to be exploited and have multi-layered defenses in place.

Equipment:
IAF vs IQAF ... latest generation aircraft of the time F-16s and F-15s vs older generation Mig-21s and Mig-23s as potential interceptors.
PAF vs IAF ... two generations old JH-7s without top-cover vs latest generation Rafale, Mirage 2000s, Mig-29s and of course hundreds of Su-30s.

Pilots:
IAF vs IQAF; Highly trained and professional pilots with the benefit of better intelligence and mission planning vs pilots and training that left much to be desired
PAF vs IAF; pilots and training is pretty much on par

Please tell me how you cherry picked this as an example for your justification of JH-7 procurement?

 

[MastanKhan]

Do you really believe that? Even if what you state about no F-15s being present is correct (which it is not), you are comparing ill-equipped and semi-professional Arab air forces of the day to present day Indian Air Force which is not only technically ahead of the PAF it is also just as competent and professional despite what you might read from the more avid supporters of the home team.

But the gist of your argument in support of JH-7 is flawed and the example you give trying to justify your incorrect position just further erodes whatever your parameters of reason are.

Lets do a comparison of the two situations.
Mission:
IAF vs IQAF; Surprised attack on an installation from the West when IQAF is busy fighting the IRIAF on the East, using a known gap in radar coverage.
PAF vs IAF; No surprises once hostilities start and InAF will have all eyes on PAF and any intruding aircraft, and given the threat PAF poses, India has made sure there are no gaps in coverage to be exploited and have multi-layered defenses in place.

Equipment:
IAF vs IQAF ... latest generation aircraft of the time F-16s and F-15s vs older generation Mig-21s and Mig-23s as potential interceptors.
PAF vs IAF ... two generations old JH-7s without top-cover vs latest generation Rafale, Mirage 2000s, Mig-29s and of course hundreds of Su-30s.

Pilots:
IAF vs IQAF; Highly trained and professional pilots with the benefit of better intelligence and mission planning vs pilots and training that left much to be desired
PAF vs IAF; pilots and training is pretty much on par

Please tell me how you cherry picked this as an example for your justification of JH-7 procurement?

Hi,

Stop wasting my time---.

You don't even have the ability to understand what I wrote---.

What I stated was that one web site says one thing---and the other source says the other thing---one website says F16's and no mention of the F15's---the other website say F15's as well---.

Janab I read only that 10% part which I quoted so wont comment about the rest of 90%

Hi,

Why won't you comment---why pick and chose---?

Id say the 10% you were wrong about is crucial to success no? Unless, as I had earlier said, you might be envisioning sending PAF pilots on a 1-way mission in a JH-7 with a low probability of success, then yes "Pakistan" should buy these rust buckets from China.

Hi,

60% of Paf aircrafts are rust buckets---put together from dead aircraft---.

 

[Armchair]

Thanks MK, I'm really learning a lot from you. He seems to fly at relatively low level, then pops up for the strike. This is a classic attack profile. I imagine JH-7s would fly a similar pattern too.

Whether the Israeli strike had aircover or not, they were unchallenged. Plus they had to cross over other countries airspace before striking. And they didn't have the ability to use standoff munition. PN would had all those luxuries.

The point really is moot whether F-15s accompanied them or not, as they didn't face enemy fighters anyways.

Between a "rust bucket" is an old aircraft that is still serving. It is never used to mean new aircraft built for an airforce. For instance, if a country buys brand new F-7s, they are not "rust buckets". You can call them "outdated" if you like, but never "rust buckets". An example of a rust bucket would be the Mirage 3/5 in PAF service...

By the way, JH-7As are capable of firing PL-12s. "JH" stands for fighter bomber. You could easily have a pair of JH-7s escorting the strike outfitted JH-7s, each with half a dozen BVRs and a pair of HOBS WVRAAMs.

You could also have JF-17s a couple of minutes away, ready to defend a returning strike package.

Till now IAF has not had to prepare for strikes against its Western shores on the Indian Ocean. They don't have "multi-layered" defenses prepared in this sector. A simple purchase of a squadron odd JH-7s would mean IAF has to move or invest in assets to do this tedius and expensive task.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

The best Low Cost available fighter to replace 5 decade old Mirage is
J-10C which has

Greater payload
- Greater speed
- Higher service ceiling
- Higher thrust to weight ratio
- Higher G-limit
- More advanced weaponery
- More advanced avionics package

72 of these would increase the capabilities of PAF greatly

 

[GumNaam]

The best Low Cost available fighter to replace 5 decade old Mirage is
J-10C which has

Greater payload
- Greater speed
- Higher service ceiling
- Higher thrust to weight ratio
- Higher G-limit
- More advanced weaponery
- More advanced avionics package
View attachment 474279 View attachment 474280 View attachment 474281


72 of these would increase the capabilities of PAF greatly

I've yet to receive a good answer for why haven't we opted for the J10Cs except for being the that the funds are being used to JF17 production. Frankly I'm still not convinced...we can still get the J10Cs in limited numbers.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

I've yet to receive a good answer for why haven't we opted for the J10Cs except for being the that the funds are being used to JF17 production. Frankly I'm still not convinced...we can still get the J10Cs in limited numbers.

The only answer on this case can be given by decision makers of PAF themselves

 

[Raider 21]

Sir,

I have been telling you guys to use your intelligence---but you kids don't---.

The israeli F16 that destroyed the Osirak Reactor had no missiles for self protection---.

It had no bullets for the canon---it had every accessory taken out that was not meant for flight---. It did not even have an ESCORT either---.

The only thing it had was the bombs and the large fuel tanks---and not even a FLY SWAT to kill a fly---.

It went in alone---no F16's or F15's to protect it---the JEW BOY flew in alone to destroy the Iraqi reactor---fearful he might have been---but a coward he was not---.

He knew he was on a one way ticket with a very little chance of coming back alive---.

You pakistani kids have NO LEARNING ability---I keep telling you guys and after sheer ignorance---you kids keep repeating the same things again and again---" the aircraft " has no protection---.

Yes---bombers---strike air craft go in without self protection weapons---if you did not know why even though I have been writing for 12 years on this board---because they are not allowed to defend themselves---their only target and goal is to reach the target and drop the bombs and if possible come back---.

If they had self protection gear---that is what they would be doing---trying to protect themselves and forgetting the primary goal---.

It amazes me that when educated adults like you do not have the ability to grasp at a concept---listen and learn or have the ability to search and read---I feel pity for the illiterate and the young---.

Hopeless---totally hopeless---.




Hi,

Now you must understand that those figures were for fighter aircraft---and not for bombers who do not have to jettison their tanks to launch their standoff weapons from 250 miles distance---.

With the invent of " standoff weapons " the term strike radius has to be re-defined "---because the aircraft does not use the same techniques as it did in the older bmobing type runs---.

Second thing is---the JH7A is able to carry 9000KG of ordinance---so two 1000---1100 KG missiles---and rest extra fuel tanks---no missiles---no machine gun / canon / no canon shells---nothing extra---.

A strike mission to Mumbai would be the same type as was on the Osirak reactor---. Just a bare bones aircraft with fuel and bombs---.

Mar 19, 2018#1

And as for the low flight---if you had not read the first post---here it is---.

The JH7 is an as true a copy of the F111 ( the ultimate low flying bomber ) minus the swing wings---.

This aircraft is desinged for low flight from gitgo and so are the engines designed for the same task as well---.

Hi,

Bombers loiter time---!!!!! Loiter time is mainly related to the fighter aircraft---bombers normally don't circle around waiting to go in---.

Because once detected---they are an easy prey---.




Hi,

Let me share it with you as well---. When fighting a larger foe---your primary goal has to be able to target the farthest of enemies cities from you---if you cannot---you are doomed.

I had thought that educated pakistanis would have learnt that by now---.

The prime example in front of us is the usa---.

Why does the US wage wars on any and every nation that it can---because those nations cannot reach its shores and mainland cities---so it does not bother the US to go and kill anyone and everyone at its discretion in AFG---Iraq---Libya---Syria---Vietnam---south america---or 2nd WW germany and Japan.

Ferry range is empty weight plus the 3 fuel tanks---.

Pakistani kids like me are learning from elders like you. Give them time and they'll reach your level of wisdom before physically reaching your age hopefully. Patience wears thin on the less learned ones....no matter what the age.

Incorrect about the F-16s my good sir, they were armed with Sidewinder missiles. They did have F-15s for aerial cover but to a certain extent, after crossing into Iraqi airspace I believe then they were on their mostly on their own as the Eagles were orbiting in and out on the border between Saudi and Iraq. Nonetheless, the mission took a lot of guts to execute.

The last guy missed his target.

 

[Armchair]

J-10Cs are not available to PAF. J-10Bs are. Be that as it may, J-10s are great air superiority platforms and I would love to see them in PAF colors. But they aren't suitable for low level strike.