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PAKISTAN’S MIRAGES: SPECIALISTS ENDURING OUT OF NECESSITY

Pay load, range, endurance, maneuverability, flight characteristics at low, high, medium altitudes, speed on those altitudes, AOA of the bird etc.
bhai you see JF-17 quite low a humble advise plz made a comparative chart of all the parameter you have listed for JF-17 and Mirage III/V and point where JF-17 lack behind
 
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If PAF upgrade JFT to medium class bird in block-3 then it will be good replacement for mirages, if JFT remains light class bird in block-3 then its not good to replace mirages.

Well, here is a tidbit. Per Madam messiach, if you want to see where we are going with Block 3, follow the evolution of J-10 ;)
 
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bhai you see JF-17 quite low a humble advise plz made a comparative chart of all the parameter you have listed for JF-17 and Mirage III/V and point where JF-17 lack behind

I don't see or talk like fanboys who mostly don't have clue how things work in military production and purchases, there is a mind set of every branch of military and they do things like that.

Initially PAF had plans to replace Mirages with F-16s, there were no plans for replacing Mirages with JFT because its not built to replace all types of birds. If JFT replaces Mirages then funds will be core problem because PAF want a medium class bird to replace Mirages and for them F-16 fits best that is why Mig-35 is a possibility as F-16s are not available and economy not good for EFT or Su-35.

Well, here is a tidbit. Per Madam messiach, if you want to see where we are going with Block 3, follow the evolution of J-10 ;)

To make JFT a medium class bird big changes will be needed and those start with engine and reduction in weight with extreme use of composite materials.
 
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I don't see or talk like fanboys who mostly don't have clue how things work in military production and purchases, there is a mind set of every branch of military and they do things like that.

Initially PAF had plans to replace Mirages with F-16s, there were no plans for replacing Mirages with JFT because its not built to replace all types of birds. If JFT replaces Mirages then funds will be core problem because PAF want a medium class bird to replace Mirages and for them F-16 fits best that is why Mig-35 is a possibility as F-16s are not available and economy not good for EFT or Su-35.



To make JFT a medium class bird big changes will be needed and those start with engine and reduction in weight with extreme use of composite materials.

OK. Provide a valid reference that shows Mirage is a medium weight fighter and shows its max payload etc. This is what @HRK was hinting at when he asked you to make a comparison table.
 
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I don't see or talk like fanboys
a Jet which is having a T/W ratio ~0.40, with less or ~60Kn engine thrust and with lesser Combat Radius is a MEDIUM WEIGHT FIGHTER and better than a homegrown solution of 4th gen standard.

below post is for reference
Our mirages are medium class birds of its time
 
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OK. Provide a valid reference that shows Mirage is a medium weight fighter and shows its max payload etc. This is what @HRK was hinting at when he asked you to make a comparison table.

It served as medium weight fighter for PAF if don't believe me then ask PAF pilots who flew it, M-3/5 are used as medium category fighter since inducted, they are not light weight fighter jets of their time period.

a Jet which is having a T/W ratio ~0.40, with less or ~60Kn engine thrust and with lesser Combat Radius is a MEDIUM WEIGHT FIGHTER and better than a homegrown solution of 4th gen standard.

below post is for reference

Kindly read my post again then talk. PAF have used Mirages as medium category birds due to their capacity and that was one important reason that PAF went for ROSE upgrade.

why PAF will use a light weight fighter to hit deep into enemy territory?? Only Mirages were capable enough to do the job in PAF as F-16s were sanctioned.

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Mirage III
ORIGINS AND CONTEXT

France’s Air Force has taken delivery of 95 Mirage III C, 59 Mirage III B, B1, B2 and BE (the D version for the export market), 70 Mirage R and RD, 183 Mirage III E, and 50 Mirage 5 F, putting the total at 457 planes. The last of those planes were withdrawn from operational units in 1994. Some, however, were still used at CEV, a flight test center, after that.
The Mirage III/5/50 family points to France’s high-ranking position among the world’s industrial nations. A total 1 401 Mirage III/5/50, in 90 different versions, have been built since 1958. They have served in 21 countries around the world and clocked a combined 3 million flying hours.

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Mirage III 001 in flight, without its shock cones
MD 550/ MIRAGE I
The first Mirage

In 1953, the Air Force general staff and the authorities, concerned at the rising weight – and cost- of aircraft, began drawing up specifications for a light interceptor. In reply, the Dassault Corporation submitted its draft project for a Mystère-Delta to the authorities, a single seat delta-plane with twin Turboméca Gabizo jet engines with after-burners and an SEPR rocket for substantial extra-power at altitude.

One French Air Force program involved a lightweight (5-ton to 6-ton) interceptor it could use on small unprepared airfields. In response to that, GAMD developed a plane using its own funds.

The MD 550 was designed in the Saint Cloud plant in early 1953. It was a delta-wing single-seater powered by twin Viper engines that GAMD produced under license

The contract for the design, production and development of two MD 550 twin-engine rocket-boosted prototypes was made official on March 22.

The raised pilot’s seat, paired with retracted air intakes and a slender nose built to house a standard Dassault radar – afforded a clear, unobstructed view.

At 08 :50 on the morning of June 25, 1955, Roland Glavany took off from Melun-Villaroche in the MD 550. During its 20-minute flight, the aircraft climbed to 3,000 feet. A second flight was made that evening et 18 :25. For its first flights, the aircraft had neither after-burners nor rockets. Even with this engine configuration, it reached Mach 0,95 in a dive on its 4th sortie, on July 24. After a brief 6-month period of fine-tuning, it reached Mach 1.3 flying horizontally.



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Mystère Delta MD 550 in flight
The first series of flight tests gave rise to refinements in the aerodynamic configuration. It was clear that the delta fin would have to be changed to a sweptback fin. The side-by-side twin engine configuration also posed some development problems; flanges were added to the rear fuselage, thereby changing the curvature.

Alteration work was completed at the beginning of May 1956. With its new sweptback fin (called the F fin) and its modified servo actuator for the elevons, the aircraft was ready to fly again. The MD 30 R engines were fitted with after-burner jet pipes, bringing the unit thrust to 1,000 kg. Finally the aircraft was equipped with an independent dual liquid SEPR 66 booster rocket providing 1,500 kg of thrust over 80 seconds. In order to adapt the aircraft to high Mach speeds and to the Viper reheat engines, the air intakes were redesigned with a smaller cross-section. These alterations made the aircraft heavier, bringing its total empty weight to 3,610 kg. The modified aircraft flew again on May 5, 1956, using for the first time, its after-burners. The MD 550-01 was renamed Mirage I and the MD 550-02 Mirage II.

For all its flight qualities, the performance of the Mirage 1 was limited by its non-adjustable air intakes and the lack of engine power. It appeared ill-suited to its mission profile. The Air Force general staff, for its part, was beginning to realize the limits of its light interceptor program:

  • 61623; directing interception by remote display from a network of ground radar stations was over-ambitious – the material equipment did not yet exist
  • 61623; NATO’s new massive retaliation strategy questioned the very concept of interception missions.
  • 61623; the arrival on the scene of supersonic bombers required a new kind of interceptor, more powerful and better equipped.
Test flights in Mirage I 01 continued as a back-up to the Mirage IV bomber project until May 1957, when the aircraft was conveyed to Bretigny for storage. The Mirage 1 program enabled the delta-wing to be evaluated. Efforts were now directed towards a more complex but more advanced aircraft. The Mirage was on the road to Mach 2.

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MD 550 Mystère Delta
THE MIRAGE III 001 BALZAC
Designed and built within the framework of the light interceptor program defined by the French Air Force after the Korea war (1950-1953), the Mirage III was a bomber fighter aircraft with a delta wing and a fuselage designed according to the area rule which gave it a distinctive waisted profile. Derived from the first Mirage formula with a Delta wing, the Mirage III is designed at the end 1955.

Mirage III 001 took off for the first time at Melun-Villaroche at 16:00 on November 17, 1956. Roland Glavany was at the controls.

The aircraft was then fitted with variable-section air inlets with moving conical hubs, called “mice”, and servo controls designed by Dassault engineers. The Air Force staff selected the Mirage III 001 as the future plane for its battle fleet. It hence ordered 10 pre-production aircraft in April 1957, (and a further 95 serially-produced Mirage III C in 1959).

Adjustment development went quickly. Thanks to its new fuselage shape and its new jet engine, Mirage III 001’s tests showed a great deal of promise.

On June 11, 1957, for its 62nd flight, the aircraft was presented at the 22nd Paris Air Show. Impressed by its results, the government decided to place an order. The contract was signed by GAMD on June 25.

On September 19, on its 78th sortie, Mirage III 01 –still with the traditional Pitot-tube air intakes – reached Mach 1.8 in level flight using its ancillary rocket and then, some two weeks later on October 2 (flight 84), Mach 1.89. The aircraft had reached its upper limit: its air intakes prevented any further increase in speed. Alerted to this problem, the design office found the answer: equip the air intakes with a moveable half-cone centerbody – a shock one – known in French as mouse (souris), varying as a function of the Mach speed.

On April 13, 1957, the Aircraft Section of the Service Technique Aéronautique asked GAMD to submit a definition dossier for the pre-production Mirage III A. Mirage III 01 was a little too small to accommodate all of the equipment required for the final version of the Mirage III A fighter.

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Mirage III
THE MIRAGE III A
Designed and built within the framework of the light interceptor program defined by the French Air Force after the Korea war (1950-1953), the Mirage III was a bomber fighter aircraft with a delta wing and a fuselage designed according to the area rule which gave it a distinctive waisted profile. Derived from the first Mirage formula with a Delta wing, the Mirage III is designed at the end 1955.

On May 9, 1957, the Secretariat of State for the Air Force ordered 10 pre-production Mirage III A. As the Air Force did not have the resources to finance a different aircraft type for each mission profile, the Mirage was to be manufactured as a single-role aircraft for all industrial purposes, but multi-role for military purposes, with a structure that could be adjusted depending on its mission.

On May 12, 1958, at Melun-Villaroche, Mirage III A 01 Honoré made its maiden flight, piloted by Roland Glavany. The State made then an order for 100 Mirage III. Mach 2 flight –quite an exploit for the end of the 1950s – was achieved for the first time in western Europe by Roland Glavany in Mirage III A 01.

The manufacture of the Mirage III was divided up between GAMD and several partners or subcontractors. The assembly line was organized in such a way that every aircraft would be completed just in time, according to its specialized role. In simple terms, it could be said that each aircraft had the same airframe and the same engine but could be delivered in any four different versions.

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Roland Glavany in front of a Mirage III A 01
THE MIRAGE III B, C, D, E, R
The Mirage III B

Ordered on February 25, 1958, the Mirage III B was the dual-control two-seater version of the Mirage III A. The prototype first flew at Melun-Villaroche on October 20, 1959, piloted by René Bigand. Compared to the basic Mirage III, its fuselage was elongated to house the second crew member in what had been the radio equipment bay. The equipment was relocated in the nose cone, which therefore no longer contained radar.

The Mirage III C

The Mirage III C was the interceptor version. CSF supervised the coordination of the weapons system. The first production-standard aircraft flew at Mérignac on October 9, 1960, with Jean Coureau at the controls.

July 7, 1961, saw the first 1/2 Cigognes fighter squadron’s Mirage III C land in Dijon-Longvic airfield. The Mirage III entered operational service with the French Air Force on December 19 that same year, and with it, French fighter pilots entered the days of bi-sonic flight. From December 1962 onwards, four fighter squadrons flying Mirage III C aircraft were in a constant state of alert. One Mirage is ready in 5 minutes, and a second will assist it after 30 minutes.

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Mirage III C
The Mirage III E and D

The Mirage III E, ordered on April 6, 1960, was designed for low-altitude air strikes. The fuselage was lengthened by 30 cm to accommodate the relevant electronic systems (navigation center, Doppler radar), and was also equipped with a more powerful jet engine, the Atar 9C. The aircraft made its maiden flight at Istres on April 5, 1961, piloted by Jean Coureau. The French version was later fitted with AN 52 tactical nuclear warhead. The Mirage III D was the export version of the Mirage III E.

The Mirage III R

The Mirage III R,, ordered on April 6, 1960, specialized in tactical reconnaissance at low and medium altitudes by day or by night. It first flew at Istres on October 31, 1961, piloted by Jean Coureau.

Over the years, further versions were introduced, initially into the French Air Force : three two-seaters : the Mirage III B1 ancillary aircraft, the Mirage III B2 I-flight refueling trainer and the more powerful and better equipped Mirage III B E, the single-seat Mirage III RD reconnaissance aircraft, with the same navigation system as the Mirage III E.

When, on July 7, 1961, the first Mirage III C from ½ Cigognes Fighter Squadron touched down at Dijon-Longvic, it was Europe’s first operational Mach 2 aircraft. The Air Force received, in all, 95 Mirage III Cs, 59 Mirage IIIB, B1, B2 and Bes, 70 Mirage IIIR and RDs, 183 Mirage III Es and finally 50 Mirage Fs, a total of 457 aircraft.

A total 1 401 Mirage III/5/50, in 90 different versions, have been built since 1958. They have served in 21 countries around the world in more than 80 versions.

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Mirage III E 401
MIRAGE III NG
In April 1981, after several months of design studies, Dassault launched the production of the prototype of an aircraft designed to replace the Mirage III, Mirage 5 and Mirage 50 : the Mirage III NG (New Generation), equipped with the Snecma Atar 9K50.

Working from the airframe of Mirage 50 01, the Corporation added an extra airfoil surface, the canard (duck) – to the fore, over the air intakes. Now renamed the Mirage 50 K, the aircraft flew on May 27, 1981 at Istres, with Patrick Experton at the controls.

Its purpose was to confirm the preliminary studies leading ultimately to the Mirage III NG. The flight tests confirmed the aerodynamic qualities; electronic controls could be fitted on the airframe of the Mirage III to turn it into a Mirage III NG. The new aircraft benefited from the wealth of studies carried out for the enhanced versions of the Mirage III, as well as from electronic controls that had already been tested out on the Mirage 2000 and the Mirage 4000. The Mirage III NG first flew on December 21, 1982, piloted by Patrick Experton.

This version was never exported.



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Mirage III NG 01
THE MIRAGE III EX
This version was developed for Brazil and Venezuela. It is sub-categorized into two-models, differing mainly in the size of their canard ancillary airfoil and in their engines :

• the Brazilian Mirage III EX, with a canard relative surface area of 3.8% and a Snecma Atar 9C turbo-jet

• the Venezuelan Mirage III EX with a canard of 2.6%, a Snecma Atar 9K 50 turbo-jet, in-flight refuelling and an upgraded navigation and attack system.

The first Mirage III EX flew on April 8, 1988, piloted by Jean Pus.

MD 550/ MIRAGE I DATASHEET
Dimensions
Span 7.32 m
Length 12.80 m
Weight
Unladen weight 3 330 kg
Performances
Max. SpeedTop Mach level flight 1.25
Max. heightPractical ceiling 14 600 m / 47 900 ft
Engine
Type Dassault MD 30 R 44.1 kN / Rocket SEPR 6614.7 kN
THE MIRAGE III 001 BALZAC DATASHEET
Dimensions
Span 7.58 m
Length 12.80 m
Weight
Unladen weight 4 840 kg
Performances
Max. SpeedTop Mach level flight 1.8
Max. heightPractical ceiling 16 500 m / 54 100 ft
Engine
Type Snecma Atar 101 G 49.0 kgp / fusée SEPR 14.7 kN
THE MIRAGE III A DATASHEET
Dimensions
SpanMirage III A 8.22
LengthMirage III A 14.20
Weight
Unladen weightMirage III A 5 340 kg
Performances
Max. SpeedTop Mach level flight (Mirage III A) 2
Max. height Practical ceiling (Mirage III A) 16 500 m / 54 100 ft


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Mirage 5
ORIGINS AND PROTOTYPES

In the mid-1960s, a new Mirage III derivative was introduced which enjoyed enormous export success : the Mirage 5.

On July 9, 1965, the management of the Corporation’s General Technical Department decided on the definition of a Mirage III E with a simplified layout. This low altitude tactical support and patrol aircraft was named the Mirage 5.

In place of the radar, the nose cone was to be fitted with the electronic navigation and attack equipment, thereby providing space for extra fuel. More attachment points were provided for external loads, while the booster rocket was removed.

The result was a less expensive aircraft, with 32% more fuel capacity than the Mirage III C and capable of carrying up to 14 bombs, not to mention a wealth of combinatory possibilities with numerous load configurations. The Israeli Air Force was very interested in the aircraft and requested 50.

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Mirage 5's first flight
PRODUCTION AND OPERATIONAL EXPERIENCE
The Mirage 5 first flew at Melun-Villaroche on May 19, 1967, piloted by Hervé Leprince-Ringuet.

The Israeli order for 50 Mirage 5 Js was signed in April 7, 1966. However, as a result of a French arms embargo in January of 1969, they could not be delivered, entering into service in the French Air Force instead.

In April 1976, the Mirage 5Fs of 3/13 Colmar Fighter Squadron won the Vulcan Trophy at the inter-allied Air Tactical Weapons contest.

A total 517 units have been produced for 11 different countries. The Mirage 5 is Dassault’s most widely exported combat aircraft.

ANECDOTES AND TESTIMONIES
France’s Air Force has taken delivery of 95 Mirage III C, 59 Mirage III B, B1, B2 and BE (the D version for the export market), 70 Mirage R and RD, 183 Mirage III E, and 50 Mirage 5 F, putting the total at 457 planes. The last of those planes were withdrawn from operational units in 1994. Some, however, were still used at CEV, a flight test center, after that.

The Mirage III/5/50 family points to France’s high-ranking position among the world’s industrial nations. A total 1 401 Mirage III/5/50, in 90 different versions, have been built since 1958. They have served in 21 countries around the world and clocked a combined 3 million flying hours.

DATASHEET
Dimensions
Span 8.22 m
Length 15.56 m
Weight
Unladen weight 6 660 kg
Performances
Max. SpeedTop Mach level flight > 2
Max. heightService ceiling 18 000 m / 59 000 ft
Engine
Type Snecma Atar 9C 58.8 kN
TO DISCOVER
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SUPER MYSTÈRE

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ALPHA JET

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ATLANTIC

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ATLANTIQUE 2

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AVE

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BALZAC

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ETENDARD

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FALCON GUARDIAN

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MD 311-312-315 FLAMANT

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JAGUAR

MD 410 SPIRALE
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MD 415 COMMUNAUTÉ

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MD 450 OURAGAN

MD 452 MYSTÈRE II
MD 620 JERICHO
MILAN
MIRAGE 4000
MIRAGE 50
MIRAGE F1
MIRAGE G
MIRAGE III
MIRAGE III F2 F3
MIRAGE III T
MIRAGE III V
MIRAGE IV
MYSTÈRE IV
SUPER-ÉTENDARD
SUPER MYSTÈRE
ALPHA JET
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It served as medium weight fighter for PAF if don't believe me then ask PAF pilots who flew it, M-3/5 are used as medium category fighter since inducted, they are not light weight fighter jets of their time period.

Kindly read my post again then talk. PAF have used Mirages as medium category birds due to their capacity and that was one important reason that PAF went for ROSE upgrade.

why PAF will use a light weight fighter to hit deep into enemy territory?? Only Mirages were capable enough to do the job in PAF as F-16s were sanctioned.
bhai again first thing first JF-17 carry almost same amount of payload (~4000KG), have same endurance of 3+ hours, have greater range of 1,400 KM in in air to ground role have precision bombing capability, with turn rates supposedly in the same range as F-16 with T/W ratio of +1 is supposedly not better than Mirage-III or V then the whole JF-17 project should be shelved, but is this the case .... I don't think so.

second thing what does this term Light weight specify ... I need to know the understanding which are establishing from this term does this indicate any short coming in Avionics, EW, precision strike ...??
 
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You can not put all work load on JFT also it was never made to replace Mirages.



Kindly you stop beating drum, because JH-7 variants have been comprehensively rejected by PAF and PN as outdated platforms, also PAF want multirole aircraft, twin engine bird will be safer to fly over EEZ then single engine bird.
Please grow up and learn to narrate properly. I dont need to beat any drums but reality is Pak is bankrupt... where are you going to get anything. Please stop reading anything and everything on the internet.
ROSE Program was just simply a stop gap nothing else; even that they flipping squandered a superb opportunity to instead partner with Atlas and do a complete Cheetah migration; we would not be having this silly exchange.
 
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Please grow up and learn to narrate properly. I dont need to beat any drums but reality is Pak is bankrupt... where are you going to get anything. Please stop reading anything and everything on the internet.
ROSE Program was just simply a stop gap nothing else; even that they flipping squandered a superb opportunity to instead partner with Atlas and do a complete Cheetah migration; we would not be having this silly exchange.
Yes best option for dedicated anti ship is JH-7B which is more cheaper that any thing out there @denel :tup:
 
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The FC-20 (i.e., J-10A) was sought for deep-strike during Musharraf's time.

If anything, the PAF will would ask for the J-10C...assuming there's something left with which we can pay China.
 
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Hi even if he he suggest so LKJ86 China is not ready to export j20 to any country
For export j31 or may be after a decade or so once they jump over to something better then
J20
Your input my friend
Thank you
i know J-20 is not for export for any country and J-31 will be ready in 2023 as most of Chinese members says, and there are recent rumors that J-31 will inducted in PLAN if you go F-31 in PAF section or Chinese FC-1 section and don't forget project AZM we are not doing alone there are lots rumors like China and Turkey or both which i assume that project AZM we can see project AZM lot earlier than we expected @Readerdefence
 
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i know J-20 is not for export for any country and J-31 will be ready in 2023 as most of Chinese members says, and there are recent rumors that J-31 will inducted in PLAN if you go F-31 in PAF section or Chinese FC-1 section and don't forget project AZM we are not doing alone there are lots rumors like China and Turkey or both which i assume that project AZM we can see project AZM lot earlier than we expected @Readerdefence
Hi I’m agreed with your assessment of AZM not doing it alone as long as we are not a partner of any kind of stealth project with Turkey or China we will not be getting or assembling that project within our territory as you can take the example of f35 and that was the sole reason by USA
To introduce f35 project for the nations whom Americans want to export or indulge them in stealth project as they are not ready to reveal their f22 technology even to the IAF or to their near and dear country in Europe that is RAF
About j31 although the progress is slow in pace in China but we all should keep in mind that according to the specifications of j31 that’s the best available stealth for their ACC and they still
Have certain number of years down the line to get it mature for their PLNAF according to,their
ACC’s induction date so their is a healthy sign of PAF getting it before the project AZM will get matured and we can start building our own fleet of stealth fighters
Thank you
 
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Please grow up and learn to narrate properly. I dont need to beat any drums but reality is Pak is bankrupt... where are you going to get anything. Please stop reading anything and everything on the internet.
ROSE Program was just simply a stop gap nothing else; even that they flipping squandered a superb opportunity to instead partner with Atlas and do a complete Cheetah migration; we would not be having this silly exchange.

Who was talking about SA Cheetahs here??
Due to current situation PAF is stuck with JFT to replace Mirages but their priority is to get another platform which is medium class bird with 4+ gen capabilities, JFT currently can not pull 9Gs and will not have OLS too.
 
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