PAKISTAN’S MIRAGES: SPECIALISTS ENDURING OUT OF NECESSITY

[CHI RULES]

The Mirages-iii and V were meant to be for ground attack role, there A2A capabilities were limited and have become more vulnerable with adversary superior multi role fighters. They still are in picture for long distance strikes but one is justified to question their capabilities to penetrate enemy defenses. The low flight tactics of old era have more or less become less effective considering much better low to high level radars introduction. Further the Mirages III/V are considered to be less maneuverable. Even they are able to make few strikes in enemy territory the loss ratio may be relatively high due to limited defensive capabilities of mirages with only having WVR missiles for A2A engagements.

 

[Signalian]

One mirage at PESHAWAR Hayatabad was sold to a
Metal dealer who supplies to paf

The dealer installed it to the township and its installed there but there is a logo of the dealer as well at the base see pic as follows

It was sold as scrap metal may be because that airframe has no life left



View attachment 492070

rare examples are always there

 

[denel]

If the Mirages have gone passed their lifespan, then PAF should consider Qatar's Mirage 2000's which are a generation ahead and have about 15 years life in them. Unless 2nd hand F-16's are available.

no. for this role, we have beaten to death. jh-7b is the ideal candidate for the specific purpose and it has the payload.

 

[GriffinsRule]

The role itself is obsolete, be it a Mirage or a JH-7B, unless you are willing to lose 50% of your force to AAA and multi-layered SAMs alone on the Indian side.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Are you serious? Strike role is obsolete?

The role itself is obsolete, be it a Mirage or a JH-7B, unless you are willing to lose 50% of your force to AAA and multi-layered SAMs alone on the Indian side.

 

[MastanKhan]

The Mirages-iii and V were meant to be for ground attack role, there A2A capabilities were limited and have become more vulnerable with adversary superior multi role fighters. They still are in picture for long distance strikes but one is justified to question their capabilities to penetrate enemy defenses. The low flight tactics of old era have more or less become less effective considering much better low to high level radars introduction. Further the Mirages III/V are considered to be less maneuverable. Even they are able to make few strikes in enemy territory the loss ratio may be relatively high due to limited defensive capabilities of mirages with only having WVR missiles for A2A engagements.

Hi,

The Mirage 3 was designed as air superiority fighter.

 

[CHI RULES]

Hi,

The Mirage 3 was designed as air superiority fighter.

Mastan Sb is/was it really an air superiority fighter?

Are you serious? Strike role is obsolete?

The pure ground strike fighter role at least in Indo/Pak scenario for us is obsolete. We need a fighter which has advanced multi role capabilities which can penetrate enemy ground defenses, and is able to counter A2A situations on it's own, yes losses shall be there but much lesser and results more effective. At least many pilots may save their lives unlike Mirage-III, where in many cases the crashes have resulted in loss of many pilots.
If on no chances PAF requires to keep the alive then ejection/safety systems should be improved. Then at least at limited scale the Mirages in better shape should get upgrades in case of radars, ECM/ESM capabilities just like India doing with their Jaguar

 

[denel]

Mastan Sb is/was it really an air superiority fighter?


The pure ground strike fighter role at least in Indo/Pak scenario for us is obsolete. We need a fighter which has advanced multi role capabilities which can penetrate enemy ground defenses, and is able to counter A2A situations on it's own, yes losses shall be there but much lesser and results more effective. At least many pilots may save their lives unlike Mirage-III, where in many cases the crashes have resulted in loss of many pilots.
If on no chances PAF requires to keep the alive then ejection/safety systems should be improved. Then at least at limited scale the Mirages in better shape should get upgrades in case of radars, ECM/ESM capabilities just like India doing with their Jaguar

Amigo Che!. This was the primary air superiority fighter in the late 60s/70/80s!. One of the best in its class. Please read up. We grew up here with Mirages III and F1s; later Cheetahs.

As my dear MastanK has also said and we agreed, Jh-7b is the perfect deep strike fighter/strategic bomber that is needed to supplant the role which Mirages are doing

 

[Hassan Guy]

As my dear MastanK has also said and we agreed, Jh-7b is the perfect deep strike fighter/strategic bomber that is needed to supplant the role which Mirages are doing

The UK is retiring the Tornado in a few years and so will Saudi, but who knows how much life is in them

 

[denel]

The UK is retiring the Tornado in a few years and so will Saudi, but who knows how much life is in them

too much nonsense as ATAK helos are showing. with jh-7b; new ones are coming out; it uses spey engines and will be a good fit.

 

[MastanKhan]

Amigo Che!. This was the primary air superiority fighter in the late 60s/70/80s!. One of the best in its class. Please read up. We grew up here with Mirages III and F1s; later Cheetahs.

As my dear MastanK has also said and we agreed, Jh-7b is the perfect deep strike fighter/strategic bomber that is needed to supplant the role which Mirages are doing

Hi,

People don't understand the difference in utility of a fighter aircraft to that of a bomber / strike aircraft---.

Are you serious? Strike role is obsolete?

Hi,

The 50% that are gone would also take down the enemy defences---But the 50% that is left would devastate the enemy---.

You ought to have something---that survives the initial 7 days of fighting---.

After the 7 days---if you have heavies left---that would be the difference between wining and losing---.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_III

 

[CHI RULES]

Amigo Che!. This was the primary air superiority fighter in the late 60s/70/80s!. One of the best in its class. Please read up. We grew up here with Mirages III and F1s; later Cheetahs.

As my dear MastanK has also said and we agreed, Jh-7b is the perfect deep strike fighter/strategic bomber that is needed to supplant the role which Mirages are doing

With due respect I beg to differ, the past has long gone but now the Mirage looks outdated may prove to be more of liability then asset.
On other hand JH7b no doubt should be a great deep strike jet more suitable for naval roles good for China or big powers, but in case of pure Indo/Pak arena the distance to be covered by opposing jets is minimal. On other hand the Indian air defenses are superior supported by capable low to high altitude radars. If PAF requires to conduct a pinpoint deep strike in India in case of both Naval or Land targets with few jets which can not only do deep strike but have to face A2A certain combat, on other hand having handicap of limited jets, then PAF shall like to have at least 4.5 th gen jet like SU35 or Chinese J series flanker, other wise limited number of 5 Gen Jets like like J31 when they are ready.
If you differ from my view please provide a brief but clear reply consisting superior characteristics of Mirages.
( Further fact is Pakistan Mirage-IIIs and F7s have faced more fatal crashes with loss of many pilots in past, meanwhile crash record of Mirage Vs, F7PGs is much better and F16 is exceptional.)

 

[denel]

With due respect I beg to differ, the past has long gone but now the Mirage looks outdated may prove to be more of liability then asset.
On other hand JH7b no doubt should be a great deep strike jet more suitable for naval roles good for China or big powers, but in case of pure Indo/Pak arena the distance to be covered by opposing jets is minimal. On other hand the Indian air defenses are superior supported by capable low to high altitude radars. If PAF requires to conduct a pinpoint deep strike in India in case of both Naval or Land targets with few jets which can not only do deep strike but have to face A2A certain combat, on other hand having handicap of limited jets, then PAF shall like to have at least 4.5 th gen jet like SU35 or Chinese J series flanker, other wise limited number of 5 Gen Jets like like J31 when they are ready.
If you differ from my view please provide a brief but clear reply consisting superior characteristics of Mirages.
( Further fact is Pakistan Mirage-IIIs and F7s have faced more fatal crashes with loss of many pilots in past, meanwhile crash record of Mirage Vs, F7PGs is much better and F16 is exceptional.)

Well i think you did not read my earlier posts and position; Mirages needed to be retired right away. Their time has long past with PAF never capitalising on a Cheetah conversion; had that been done it would have been a different ball game.
Deep strike aircraft jh-7b is a good alternative amongst many but Su's are a maintenance nightmare if you are willing to put up with those when there is none existent funds.

 

[Thorough Pro]

My question was to @GriffinsRule who stated that Strike role itself is obsolete.

Hi,

People don't understand the difference in utility of a fighter aircraft to that of a bomber / strike aircraft---.



Hi,

The 50% that are gone would also take down the enemy defences---But the 50% that is left would devastate the enemy---.

You ought to have something---that survives the initial 7 days of fighting---.

After the 7 days---if you have heavies left---that would be the difference between wining and losing---.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_III

 

[GriffinsRule]

My question was to @GriffinsRule who stated that Strike role itself is obsolete.

I probably should have gone into more detail as to what I meant. The strike as it is expected to be performed by the Mirage V squadrons in the Indo-Pak context is obsolete due to using obsolete equipment and tactics suited more for 1980s. At best these assets will be useful on the border areas to slow their ground formations or trying to attack pre-determined fixed targets at night, hoping to avoid an areal confrontation while using the FLIR (only 2 squadrons able to perform that role). Again, their lack of carrying any LGBs will severely limit their utility anyways.

In the modern air warfare, the need to be able to precision or guided weapons from standoff ranges will be the need of the day, not the suicide run at low levels hoping to come back in one piece. There won't be any element of surprise as PAF was able to exploit in 1965 and expecting the Mirages to evade both their AWACS coverage and the latest AD radars and missiles/guns is not going to be the winning strategy. I don't want PAF to have attrition its pilots flying ageing 3rd generation aircraft on missions that in the absence of good situational awareness, and any credible means of self-defence (passive and active) have no real hopes of success. We have to keep in mind how heavily India has invested in their radar network and the success of their locally produced radars and soon the SAMs for every season.

If we were to ask anyone here or in the PAF if they would prefer to go on a strike mission in an F-16 or JF-17 vs a Mirage III/V, I think the answer would be the former.