Pakistan’s Military Has Quietly Reached Out to India for Talks

[pzfz]

the locals have now started to tire of the constant danger and are publicly blaming the militants for their misery.

leaving the rest of your spiel, the highlighted statement is has no basis in reality. Neither do the supposed compulsions the nyt article trotted out. Somehow he reached out before the govt even took place, and before the reasons given (fatf etc) ever took place? Just a story written to expand on innocuous statements the army thru ispr usually trot out. Bajwa has and will probably continue to call out for dialogue because that's what he does.

 

[SrNair]

Pakistan’s Military Has Quietly Reached Out to India for Talks
Image

Naval officers at an Independence Day ceremony last month in Karachi, Pakistan.CreditCreditAkhtar Soomro/Reuters


By Maria Abi-Habib

• Sept. 4, 2018

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Concerned about Pakistan’s international isolation and faltering economy, the country’s powerful military has quietly reached out to its archrival India about resuming peace talks, but the response was tepid, according to Western diplomats and a senior Pakistani official.

The outreach, initiated by the army’s top commander, Gen. Qamar Javed Bajwa, began months before Pakistan’s national elections. Pakistan offered to resume on-and-off talks with India over their border dispute in the Kashmir region, which stalled in 2015 as violence flared up there.

A key objective for Pakistan in reaching out to India is to open barriers to trade between the countries, which would give Pakistan more access to regional markets. Any eventual peace talks over Kashmir are likely to involve an increase in bilateral trade as a confidence-building measure.

billions of dollars in loans from China earlier this year to pay its bills.

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General Bajwa linked Pakistan’s economy to the region’s security in a hallmark speech last October, and the idea that the two are inseparable has since become known as the Bajwa doctrine. The army chief is also seen as more moderate than his predecessors were on India, which has been Pakistan’s bitter rival since the bloody partition that came with independence in 1947.

The Pakistani general and his Indian counterpart, Gen. Bipin Rawat, served together in a United Nations peacekeeping mission in Congo about a decade ago and get along well, diplomats say. Earlier this year, General Bajwa said the only way to solve the two countries’ conflict was through dialogue, a rare statement from the military.

Diplomats say General Bajwa has tried to reach out to General Rawat to initiate talks. But the effort has been stymied by what one diplomat called a “system mismatch.”


The army is Pakistan’s most powerful institution, but India’s military is much weaker and could not agree to a peace deal without the civilian government’s approval. Diplomats in New Delhi say Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s government is preoccupied with elections expected early next year and does not want talks before then, fearing that if talks collapse — as they have many times before — it could cost them at the polls.

in his victory speech, addressing India. “We need to move ahead.”

With Mr. Khan in office, talks may have a better chance because he is seen as the army’s man, diplomats in both Islamabad and New Delhi say. India sees Mr. Khan’s outreach as sanctioned by the military and believes he will clearly present General Bajwa’s demands and red lines.

That the military would initiate such a major foreign policy decision unilaterally, and before the elections, suggests it was confident that its preferred candidate, Mr. Khan, would win. Mr. Khan was sworn in as prime minister last month, in the wake of accusations that the army had intervened to back his candidacy.

Diplomats in Islamabad say Pakistan’s outreach may also be driven in part by the country’s Chinese allies. Beijing has prodded Pakistan to stabilize its border with India, hoping for greater stability as it pursues its regional economic ambitions. China is investing some $62 billion in Pakistan, mostly in large infrastructure projects through what is being called the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, part of China’s global Belt and Road initiative.

attacked a bus carrying Chinese workers, wounding five.

Pakistan may also be realizing that it can no longer withstand its growing international isolation and its worsening ties with the United States, which was once its closest Western ally. The United States cut more than $1 billion of aid to Pakistan in January for not doing enough to curb terror groups, which it accuses the army of supporting.

Tensions with Washington were further aggravated this week when the American military said it would withhold $300 million in aid to Pakistan, just days before the Trump administration’s first meeting with Mr. Khan’s new government. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo is scheduled to meet Mr. Khan on Wednesday in Islamabad, and Pakistani lawmakers enraged over the aid cut have been calling for Mr. Khan to scrap the meeting.

In the past, military and government officials in Pakistan have said they could withstand American aid cuts, pointing to their growing ties with China. But Pakistan was stunned this year when China went along with putting Islamabad on a terror-financing watch list, which will make it harder and more expensive for Pakistan to raise badly needed funding on international debt markets.


Salman Masood contributed reporting from Islamabad, and Hari Kumar from New Delhi.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/04/world/asia/pakistan-india-talks.html

Really ?
Indian military is strong in their responsibility.
And diplomacy is not their responsibility.infact they are nothing in formulating in our diplomacy.

 

[SQ8]

leaving the rest of your spiel, the highlighted statement is has no basis in reality. Neither do the supposed compulsions the nyt article trotted out. Somehow he reached out before the govt even took place, and before the reasons given (fatf etc) ever took place? Just a story written to expand on innocuous statements the army thru ispr usually trot out. Bajwa has and will probably continue to call out for dialogue because that's what he does.

Lets agree to disagree.

Really ?
Indian military is strong in their responsibility.
And diplomacy is not their responsibility.infact they are nothing in formulating in our diplomacy.

What assumptions did you make thinking the military reached out directly?

 

[SrNair]

Lets agree to disagree.


What assumptions did you make thinking the military reached out directly?

Well topic of NY times says that and so far no officials from Pakistan denied it. And our Constitution already alloted the responsibilities to each of our institution .

 

[Indrajit]

There is some logic to this since facts on ground seem to bear it out. There is a lot more silence on the border following the reiteration of the cease fire, it is highly unlikely that the Indian army and government would have agreed to the cease fire without some assurances being given. The story though has too many factual inaccuracies in it.Gen Bajwa and Gen Rawat did not serve together, when the latter arrived in Congo, the former had already left. Them getting along well makes no sense in this context.

 

[Indrajit]

Lets agree to disagree.


What assumptions did you make thinking the military reached out directly?

Gen. Bajwa reaching out is not unlikely, that he supposedly tried to do so with the Indian army directly is odd since Gen. Bajwa knows the limitations of the IA and when he could have got in touch using the same method with NSA Doval which actually is what happened I assume. The rest of the story about the Indian government being cautious at this point rings true. That Gen. Bajwa is calling the shots was apparent when at the swearing in of the new PM, he was talking about opening up some routes for pilgrims when that should have been the preserve of the government. The story is likely true in its core though specifics might be a little off.

Point to note that Siddhu required the explicit permission of the GoI through the EAM to visit Pakistan (as a member of state assembly and a state minister). The other friend of Imran Khan is even more interesting since Vikram Mehta is the son of a former foreign secretary who visited Pakistan in the late 70’s with the then EAM Atal Behari Vajpayee. While he probably didn’t require GoI permission, his background makes him interesting.

 

[SQ8]

Well topic of NY times says that and so far no officials from Pakistan denied it. And our Constitution already alloted the responsibilities to each of our institution .

Then why are there DGMO hotlines?

Gen. Bajwa reaching out is not unlikely, that he supposedly tried to do so with the Indian army directly is odd since Gen. Bajwa knows the limitations of the IA and when he could have got in touch using the same method with NSA Doval which actually is what happened I assume. The rest of the story about the Indian government being cautious at this point rings true. That Gen. Bajwa is calling the shots was apparent when at the swearing in of the new PM, he was talking about opening up some routes for pilgrims when that should have been the preserve of the government. The story is likely true in its core though specifics might be a little off.

Point to note that Siddhu required the explicit permission of the GoI through the EAM to visit Pakistan (as a member of state assembly and a state minister). The other friend of Imran Khan is even more interesting since Vikram Mehta is the son of a former foreign secretary who visited Pakistan in the late 70’s with the then EAM Atal Behari Vajpayee. While he probably didn’t require GoI permission, his background makes him interesting.

That is just repetitive fiction from India that COAS calls the shots and I’ll ignore that. He has weight in opinion.
All PA COAS have for obvious reasons, JFK and then Johnson found the weight of the pentagon on them overbearing as well. The greater issue is how much weight does IK have pushing back.

To put in perspective, the previous government would talk to the Army for their opinions(expressed strongly), say they would consider it and then use back channels to do the opposite.
That was causing a lot of friction between the institutions including foriegn office.

So far on the surface this government is taking a consensus approach, and IF the consensus is find a way to settle things with India- is it a bad thing?

 

[Indrajit]

Then why are there DGMO hotlines?


That is just repetitive fiction from India that COAS calls the shots and I’ll ignore that. He has weight in opinion.
All PA COAS have for obvious reasons, JFK and then Johnson found the weight of the pentagon on them overbearing as well. The greater issue is how much weight does IK have pushing back.

To put in perspective, the previous government would talk to the Army for their opinions(expressed strongly), say they would consider it and then use back channels to do the opposite.
That was causing a lot of friction between the institutions including foriegn office.

So far on the surface this government is taking a consensus approach, and IF the consensus is find a way to settle things with India- is it a bad thing?

I’ll ignore the alternate fiction on who calls the shots ( the information minister told Indian tv “we will do what the army wants” before adding “or vice versa”). As for it being a good thing regardless of who is responsible, can’t argue with that.

The rest of my post suggesting steps already taken by Gen. Bajwa rings true, even a senior state department official said that there was a commitment on reducing violence at the border from Pakistan in June and you can figure who was calling the shots there.

 

[SQ8]

I’ll ignore the alternate fiction on who calls the shots ( the information minister told Indian tv “we will do what the army wants” before adding “or vice versa”). As for it being a good thing regardless of who is responsible, can’t argue with that.

The rest of my post suggesting steps already taken by Gen. Bajwa rings true, even a senior state department official said that there was a commitment on reducing violence at the border from Pakistan in June and you can figure who was calling the shots there.

The army is deployed at the border, Gen Bajwa is head of the Army.. now sure who else is supposed to try and reduce violence there?
You seem to be suggesting it is the PM’s job to go and ask a subedar not to respond to an Indian posts firing.

 

[Indrajit]

The army is deployed at the border, Gen Bajwa is head of the Army.. now sure who else is supposed to try and reduce violence there?
You seem to be suggesting it is the PM’s job to go and ask a subedar not to respond to an Indian posts firing.

He had to negotiate it with the Indian army, that would have taken some commitments and the decision to agree to the cease fire would have taken place at very high levels of the Indian government. As for whether your PM gave orders to a subedar, not very likely since there were zero chances of that subedar listening. Also if it was the Indian posts firing for the heck of it, why would they stop just because your CoAS told his boys to. You know as well as me that the situation is more complex than that.

 

[SQ8]

He had to negotiate it with the Indian army, that would have taken some commitments and the decision to agree to the cease fire would have taken place at very high levels of the Indian government. As for whether your PM gave orders to a subedar, not very likely since there were zero chances of that subedar listening. Also if it was the Indian posts firing for the heck of it, why would they stop just because your CoAS told his boys to. You know as well as me that the situation is more complex than that.

You just negated your earlier post, because the Army is the institution responsible for border management, any direction from the civil government has to go to the army leadership.
Which would mean the COAS has to be called in, consulted and given a directive so that he may call the shots to his troops.

As for ceasefire violations, the PA does stop firing or avoids retaliation especially if the Indian post is located next to a civilian area.

 

[SrNair]

Then why are there DGMO hotlines?


That is just repetitive fiction from India that COAS calls the shots and I’ll ignore that. He has weight in opinion.
All PA COAS have for obvious reasons, JFK and then Johnson found the weight of the pentagon on them overbearing as well. The greater issue is how much weight does IK have pushing back.

To put in perspective, the previous government would talk to the Army for their opinions(expressed strongly), say they would consider it and then use back channels to do the opposite.
That was causing a lot of friction between the institutions including foriegn office.

So far on the surface this government is taking a consensus approach, and IF the consensus is find a way to settle things with India- is it a bad thing?

DGMO hotlines is only for tactical necessity.
We are proud about our Army.
But in our nation their purpose is only protecting nation.
Policy making is not their business,nor we allow them to do that

 

[SQ8]

DGMO hotlines is only for tactical necessity.
We are proud about our Army.
But in our nation their purpose is only protecting nation.
Policy making is not their business,nor we allow them to do that

Sounds more like you are avoiding the question to get on the usual sanctimonious tirade. DGMO’s arent just tactical, they are there to diffuse escalations and focus on border discipline. Both militaries maintain contacts that then translate to connections within the foriegn office through the channels.

DGMO’s convery their discussions to higher ups who then use the channels to send information, suggestions or requests to the foriegn office. They then consider the information for any actions or defer it.
These are state mechanisms and BOTH India and Pakistan follow them regardless of the tripe we hear from India.

 

[Hindustani78]

Alright, so how does opening trade with India gives us access to REGIONAL INTERNATIONAL market??
What a load of crap this, remind me of certain Sir-je-Kals!

Sanctions are working in real which has restricted the immigration as well as helped the allied nations to understand how to protect sensitive technology from being stolen by the enemy nations.

Sensitive technology in all the sectors have to be produced which in real shows the educational base of any nation but by carrying copycat production lines will never be solution in long term. What you will do in Space ? HAN

In the past, military and government officials in Pakistan have said they could withstand American aid cuts, pointing to their growing ties with China. But Pakistan was stunned this year when China went along with putting Islamabad on a terror-financing watch list, which will make it harder and more expensive for Pakistan to raise badly needed funding on international debt markets.

Here lies the rub

We should not forget about the technical hold used by the Chinese.

Then why are there DGMO hotlines?

For better co ordination to swap the dead bodies of civilians and militants (Regular Soldiers).

One question arises quite often by the Indian Armed Forces as the Chinese deny to take the dead bodies of its militants and Militias (soldiers) from the Bengal province and in the recent flush out which has been carried out by the Indian Armed Forces against the Maoists in the red corridor, the maoists militant toll has been in hundreds. I think the Pakistan DGMO should even talk with the Indian DGMO on the 2003 Ceasefire pact and work to even swap the dead bodies of Maoists militants which are being lying in Indian morgues for months and years and according to Indian Intelligence Agencies , these Maoists dead bodies are of soldiers not only of China but even of Myanmar, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.

Iraqi Central Government forensic team have been visited to Delhi and have even identified the dead bodies Iraqi Baathist soldiers who were operating along with Iranians, Syrians and Russians in Kashmir valley and something around 3 to 4 units of the IS Soldiers ( Russians,Iranians, Chinese, Syrians,Houthis and Al Qaida ) were killed by the Indian Security Forces and if to check even those IS Soldiers dead bodies are in thousands inside Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.