Pakistan's Identity Crisis: Can it explain itself without India?

[magra]

Nope we know what would have happened. Hindus are not tolerating 200 million Muslims and you think they would have tolerated 600 million Muslims in subcontinent? No way.

The animosity between Hindus and Muslims primarily stems from the partition. Without it, there would not have been this divide. Remember that Hindus and Muslims fought side by side in our 1st war of independence in 1857.

 

[El Sidd]

The animosity between Hindus and Muslims primarily stems from the partition. Without it, there would not have been this divide. Remember that Hindus and Muslims fought side by side in our 1st war of independence in 1857.

For the Mughal empire not for RSS republic.

 

[magra]

For the Mughal empire not for RSS republic.

Mughal emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar was just a figurehead in 1857. Many of the rulers who fought against British were Maratha confederates - Lakshmibai, Nanasaheb Peshwa etc.
If Mughal rulers had any strength left, then Abdali would not have needed to come to fight Marathas in 1761.

 

[Paitoo]

No country needs to define itself in terms of any other country. Unless it is some sort of a rump state whose people are severely disadvantaged due to the accident of their nationality. A country is what its living people are. That is why alliances change, new conflicts arise and old conflicts get settled. Europe has done well to put its warring past behind.

The subcontinent's history is over 3000 years old and the last 70 years are a blip in the bigger picture. We have no idea what borders will look like in the next 300 years, let alone next 3000. Time to move on.

 

[El Sidd]

Mughal emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar was just a figurehead in 1857. Many of the rulers who fought against British were Maratha confederates - Lakshmibai, Nanasaheb Peshwa etc.
If Mughal rulers had any strength left, then Abdali would not have needed to come to fight Marathas in 1761.

Transition of power happened between Moguls and British.

 

[magra]

Transition of power happened between Moguls and British.

Thats not entirely true. British did get Bengal after defeating Mughals there. But so did they defeat a lot of other powers to gain the rest of the subcontinent.
See this map of 1770

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

The animosity between Hindus and Muslims primarily stems from the partition.

Nope that's not the case.

When Marathas were expanding their empire in Indian subcontinent,shah wali ullah wrote a letter to Afghan ruler ahmad shah abdali to invade India and decisively defeat Marathas. Then happened pani pat 3 and marathas were limited to their native lands.so you can imagine that Muslims of Hind never tolerated any Hindu raj on them. So this lead to partition.of course Muslims are still in India and their situation is not hidden from the world.

Basically we converted from Hinduism to Islam so our ancestors knew the nature of Hindus very well.so they decided to make a separate Homeland for the Muslims.

 

[Wood]

From the perspective of international observers, there could have been doubts about Pakistani identity right after the partition of India. Then perhaps once again for a few years after the events of 1971 war.

In the current century, I don't think there is any such doubts left. Over the years, Pakistan has clearly forged its own identity just by existing (as all other countries have). Countries and individuals have multi faceted identities. Pakistan's most glaringly obvious current identity as I see it - a poor Muslim majority country in the North western edge of South Asian subcontinent.

 

[El Sidd]

Thats not entirely true. British did get Bengal after defeating Mughals there. But so did they defeat a lot of other powers to gain the rest of the subcontinent.
See this map of 1770

View attachment 782101

a speck in history is not entire history.

 

[magra]

When Marathas were expanding their empire in Indian subcontinent,shah wali ullah wrote a letter to Afghan ruler ahmad shah abdali to invade India and decisively defeat Marathas. Then happened pani pat 3 and marathas were limited to their native lands.

It wasnt a religious war but a territorial one. Marathas had Muslim generals fighting under them as well (Shamsher Bahadur, Ibrahim Gardi). The setback to Marathas was temporary. They regained most of the territory in the next 10-20 years, as Abdali had quickly returned to manage his kingdom in Afghanistan.

so you can imagine that Muslims of Hind never tolerated any Hindu raj on them. So this lead to partition.

How do you explain Hindu and Muslim rulers aligning against British in 1857 ?

a speck in history is not entire history.

Here is another one prepared by British in 1785. You can see the extent of Maratha rule some 24 years after the Panipat defeat.
Mughals were so insignificant at this point that British had clubbed them under 'Other Native States'

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

How do you explain Hindu and Muslim rulers aligning against British in 1857 ?

In the same sense as moosad and ISI cooperated to defeat USSR in Afghanistan.
1857 was a reactionary, temporary and unorganized conflict with Britishers.nothing more.

The reality is that Religion is the most influential thing in this world.people can do literally every thing to save interests of their religion.Ham ne tu Sirf aik country banaea hai

 

[El Sidd]

Here is another one prepared by British in 1785. You can see the extent of Maratha rule some 24 years after the Panipat defeat.
Mughals were so insignificant at this point that British had clubbed them under 'Other Native States'

Ofcourse British would propagate Mughals were insignificant.

Did Marathas publish any map during their short lived federation?

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

From the perspective of international observers, there could have been doubts about Pakistani identity right after the partition of India

F#ck those international observers.Until something suits our interests its fine no matter what the world think

Then perhaps once again for a few years after the events of 1971 war.

Our two nation theory said: Muslims cannot live with majority Hindus.If bangalis who accepted our theory in 47 ,joined india then we can reconsider our theory if not, our theory is still valid.

a poor Muslim majority country in the North western edge of South Asian subcontinent

...with a supa pawa of cow urine drinkers as a neighbor.

Always write your lines completely

 

[magra]

Ofcourse British would propagate Mughals were insignificant.

Did Marathas publish any map during their short lived federation?

What is the incentive for British to belittle Mughals and exaggerate Maratha power?

Since Marathas were ultimately defeated and British won, British maps are preserved for posterity. There may be some historical archives of Maratha maps (in their native language), but they are not readily available on internet.

 

[halupridol]

Yet another,,, "Pakistan ka matlab kya thread".
Since this kind of identity crisis thread is a constant feature on this forum,,,might as well make a sticky one, so the same arguments don't get repeated.
Megathread- The question of identity Pakistan