Pakistan’s Evolving Nuclear Weapons Infrastructure

[Hellfire]

@hellfire

Please read this very, very carefully. He has captured the heart and soul of the viewpoint that we need to discard outmoded ideas and attitudes and look at what is really happening.

Doval is not the answer; Nirmala Sitharaman's winking and smirking at narration of head-hunting is not the answer; thrusting 56 inches of thorax into every policy matter is not the answer.

I realise that you and I differ on several vital aspects, but I beg you to read WITH AN OPEN MIND one of the best snapshots of the current situation that you (and I) are likely to get within PDF. The scary part is that outside PDF, there are numerous such intelligent and clear-visioned accounts to be read.

More later.

Sir.


It remains a long debate for some other time. PDF may not be appropriate for the same.

I do understand what @Oscar has written, hence my lament that there needs to be a rethink beginning here (as exemplified by the superb support of individuals carrying nuclear devices ). But, when the situation is of compulsions, then there is not much except to brace for what remains the consequence.

I may not agree with the present dispensations methods, but I do agree with the shaping up of a concrete action on ground as opposed to nothing happening at the table other than one insincere one 'bloody' effort after another.

 

[VCheng]

This begs the question, from a nobody, why not work things out yourself which are a win-win for those of you who live there? And a tough question for my Indian friends, why corner and threaten Pak just to be a hegemon of a poor region being left more and more behind? Even if India some how "wins", there should be no doubt that you will be more and more dependent on the Uncle. (Like the old story of a monkey dividing things up "equally").

The bet here is by India to win the war economically in the next couple of decades.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Good points. These are steps to harbinger of things to come and none of it any good. Local politics and incompetence are surely the reason neither side can get all they want without risking blowing everything up. And, you can't discount the "help" from outsiders who want a say in the region by ensuring there is escalation of "ineffective" solution so they can stay relevant.

I am delighted to welcome another member into the Oscar Fan Club (just one little point: I am the permanent president and would appreciate that being kept in mind at all times - none of this election nonsense, please, we have had a surfeit in the real world, particularly in North Carolina, Florida and Georgia).

When we can get him to forget his grief and his indignation, we get pay-dirt.

This begs the question, from a nobody, why not work things out yourself which are a win-win for those of you who live there? And a tough question for my Indian friends, why corner and threaten Pak just to be a hegemon of a poor region being left more and more behind? Even if India some how "wins", there should be no doubt that you will be more and more dependent on the Uncle. (Like the old story of a monkey dividing things up "equally").

That, dear Sir, is not a tough question, it's an obvious one. A quick aside: I always thought it was a cat arbiting between two monkeys; your wisecrack seems to point to a monkey with two cats.

You don't need to read the rest. Just assume that there is a section of Indian society that is not entirely rational, in fact, is opposed to rationality, and that propensity finds expression in the kinds of things that seem to puzzle you.

The answer to your question goes back into Indian society, from those issues into Indian politics, reflective of Indian social movement and turbulence. In very brief, what you see - what we all see, but some of us acknowledge seeing, while some others deny that there is anything visible - is the backlash of the Indian dominant elite against the trials and tribulations they have had to face for centuries. The latest and most unforgivable insult, accompanied by real injury, was the rule by European foreigners, not because they were particularly more wounding than what had come immediately before, an oppression by an agglomerated mass of people from another religion that did not respond to the co-opting that Indian society and social elites had refined to a fine art, but because they were the latest.

The backlash is in generic terms a rejection of anything that deviates from a template defined by the ideologues of this movement; in specific terms, it means that religions rooted outside the holy motherland are 'foreign' and do not belong; their votaries are, at best, tolerated as having been originally of native stock but coerced into deviation by brute force (in some sub-variants, occasionally seduction of these converts is reluctantly admitted). It means that those who remain within the boundaries of the country must conform to the template. The template, just to make things clear, has nothing to do with the reality that prevailed for the last century or two, but has an artificial structure, including everything that the 'other' hates, and excluding everything that the 'other' likes.

This template was refined and honed quite recently, over about a century in the immediate past. The pent-up anger and resentment was, however, nursed through the centuries by a relatively small clique. When they applied the tools and techniques of imported intellectual analysis and achieved their definition of the template, to which they gave the name of Hindutva, they then set about winning back lost ground in the leadership of Indian society. To do this, they had to get involved in the wholly artificial and disgracefully distorted methods of a foreign political system imposed on Indian society - their view! So they split into a social wing that sticks to nursing the sacred flame, the concept, and a political wing that is assigned to go out into the dirt and dust of Indian politics and win power.

This political wing won power recently by emphasising economic development and growth as its strong points, without once allowing it to be suspected that, in fact, they had no mental or intellectual equipment with which to achieve these glorious victories. Much of their stock in trade in governance is an emphasis on common sense (as they see it, and as they present it to the electorate) and a denigration of the intellectual apparatus that was imposed on India by its hated European rulers. You will find remark after tweet after quip after speech to that effect, running down those that ran matters before, and promoting their own 'expertise'.

That is the key to the irrationality that you see.

 

[SQ8]

I am delighted to welcome another member into the Oscar Fan Club (just one little point: I am the permanent president and would appreciate that being kept in mind at all times - none of this election nonsense, please, we have had a surfeit in the real world, particularly in North Carolina, Florida and Georgia).

When we can get him to forget his grief and his indignation, we get pay-dirt.



That, dear Sir, is not a tough question, it's an obvious one. A quick aside: I always thought it was a cat arbiting between two monkeys; your wisecrack seems to point to a monkey with two cats.

You don't need to read the rest. Just assume that there is a section of Indian society that is not entirely rational, in fact, is opposed to rationality, and that propensity finds expression in the kinds of things that seem to puzzle you.

The answer to your question goes back into Indian society, from those issues into Indian politics, reflective of Indian social movement and turbulence. In very brief, what you see - what we all see, but some of us acknowledge seeing, while some others deny that there is anything visible - is the backlash of the Indian dominant elite against the trials and tribulations they have had to face for centuries. The latest and most unforgivable insult, accompanied by real injury, was the rule by European foreigners, not because they were particularly more wounding than what had come immediately before, an oppression by an agglomerated mass of people from another religion that did not respond to the co-opting that Indian society and social elites had refined to a fine art, but because they were the latest.

The backlash is in generic terms a rejection of anything that deviates from a template defined by the ideologues of this movement; in specific terms, it means that religions rooted outside the holy motherland are 'foreign' and do not belong; their votaries are, at best, tolerated as having been originally of native stock but coerced into deviation by brute force (in some sub-variants, occasionally seduction of these converts is reluctantly admitted). It means that those who remain within the boundaries of the country must conform to the template. The template, just to make things clear, has nothing to do with the reality that prevailed for the last century or two, but has an artificial structure, including everything that the 'other' hates, and excluding everything that the 'other' likes.

This template was refined and honed quite recently, over about a century in the immediate past. The pent-up anger and resentment was, however, nursed through the centuries by a relatively small clique. When they applied the tools and techniques of imported intellectual analysis and achieved their definition of the template, to which they gave the name of Hindutva, they then set about winning back lost ground in the leadership of Indian society. To do this, they had to get involved in the wholly artificial and disgracefully distorted methods of a foreign political system imposed on Indian society - their view! So they split into a social wing that sticks to nursing the sacred flame, the concept, and a political wing that is assigned to go out into the dirt and dust of Indian politics and win power.

This political wing won power recently by emphasising economic development and growth as its strong points, without once allowing it to be suspected that, in fact, they had no mental or intellectual equipment with which to achieve these glorious victories. Much of their stock in trade in governance is an emphasis on common sense (as they see it, and as they present it to the electorate) and a denigration of the intellectual apparatus that was imposed on India by its hated European rulers. You will find remark after tweet after quip after speech to that effect, running down those that ran matters before, and promoting their own 'expertise'.

That is the key to the irrationality that you see.

Grief and indignation are a part of life.

So are maintaining certain personas for change management.
But to borrow as I will from Cioran ..
I am displeased with everything, if they made me a god I would immediately resign.

But I keep harping on the as-of-yet intangible and fantastical idea of having to face the horde out of the great wall some 50 years from now when climate change will really be spreading misery and food resources wars will truly erupt; that those who speak the same language would be truly missed.
A little out of context of both thread and quote
It is no nation we inhabit, but language. Make no mistake; our native tongue is our true fatherland

 

[Joe Shearer]

Grief and indignation are a part of life.

So are maintaining certain personas for change management.
But to borrow as I will from Cioran ..
I am displeased with everything, if they made me a god I would immediately resign.

But I keep harping on the as-of-yet intangible and fantastical idea of having to face the horde out of the great wall some 50 years from now when climate change will really be spreading misery and food resources wars will truly erupt; that those who speak the same language would be truly missed.
A little out of context of both thread and quote
It is no nation we inhabit, but language. Make no mistake; our native tongue is our true fatherland

The added emphasis is for my personal edification. It is not a signal to others, as it is the whole thread that is worth reading.

@Nilgiri
@hellfire
@jbgt90 I hope you are better now, and I hope you read this thread
@Mage I need you to start following Oscar; read this one for starters
@Didact
@padamchen

 

[SQ8]

The added emphasis is for my personal edification. It is not a signal to others, as it is the whole thread that is worth reading.

@Nilgiri
@hellfire
@jbgt90 I hope you are better now, and I hope you read this thread
@Mage I need you to start following Oscar; read this one for starters
@Didact
@padamchen

Now I must return to the adopted persona..

So go burn thou heritic baby killer of bhakt shame!!
I pray nuclear fire consumes you!

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Pakistan’s tactical NASR nuclear-capable mobile rocket launcher now appears to be deployed.

By Hans M. Kristensen

In our latest Nuclear Notebook on Pakistani nuclear forces, Robert Norris and I estimate that Pakistan has produced an estimated stockpile of 130-140 nuclear warheads for delivery by short- and medium-range ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, and fighter-bombers.

Pakistan now identifies with what is described as a full-spectrum nuclear deterrent posture, which is though to include strategic missiles and fighter-bombers for so-called retaliatory strikes in response to nuclear attacks, and short-range missiles for sub-strategic use in response to conventional attacks.

Although there have been many rumors over the years, the location of the nuclear-capable launchers has largely evaded the public eye for much of Pakistan’s 19-year old declared nuclear weapons history. Most public analysis has focused on the nuclear industry (see here for a useful recent study). But over the past several years, commercial satellite pictures have gradually brought into light several facilities that might form part of Pakistan’s evolving nuclear weapons launcher posture.

This includes 10 facilities, including 5 missile garrisons (soon possibly 6) as well 2 (possibly 4) air bases with fighter-bombers.


Pakistan’s nuclear weapons related infrastructure includes at least 10 major industrial facilities and about 10 bases for nuclear-capable forces. Click map to view full size.
The nuclear warheads that would arm the launchers are thought to be stored at other secure facilities that have not yet been identified. In a crisis, these warheads would first have to be brought to the bases and mated with the launchers before they could be used.

Security at these and other Pakistani defense facilities is a growing concern and many have been upgraded with additional security perimeters during the past 10 years in response to terrorist attacks.

There are still many unknowns and uncertainties about the possible nuclear role of these facilities. All of the launchers are thought to be dual-capable, which means they can deliver both conventional and nuclear warheads. So even if a base has a nuclear role, most of the launchers might be assigned to the conventional mission. Further analysis in the future might disqualify some and identify others. But for now, this profile of potential road-mobile launcher garrisons and air bases are intended as a preliminary guide and accompany the recent FAS Nuclear Notebook on Pakistani nuclear forces.

Nuclear-Capable Road-Mobile Missile Launcher Bases

The total number and location of Pakistan’s nuclear-capable missile bases is not known. But analysis of commercial satellite photos has identified features that suggest that at least five bases might serve a role in Pakistan’s emerging nuclear posture. This includes army garrisons at Akro (Petaro), Gujranwala, Khuzdar, Pano Aqil, and Sargodha. A sixth base at Bahawalpur (29.2829, 71.7955) may be under construction. There is also a seventh base near Dera Ghazi Khan (29.9117, 70.4922), but the infrastructure is very different and not yet convincing.

An obvious difficulty in identifying nuclear missile bases is that the infrastructure is not yet publicly known, that commercial satellite photos do not have sufficient resolution to positively identify nuclear-capable launchers with certainty (especially smaller shorter-range types), that all launchers are dual-capable (not all bases with a certain launcher may have a nuclear role; and not all nuclear-capable launchers at a particular base may be assigned nuclear warheads), and that Pakistan (like other nuclear-armed states) most likely is engaged in considerable efforts to conceal and confuse identification of nuclear launchers.

With these caveats, here is a description with images of what we consider to be the five primary nuclear-capable bases and the primary TEL (Transporter Erector Launcher) production facility in Pakistan:

Akro Garrison: This base is located (25.5483, 68.3343) approximately 18 km (11 miles) north of Hyderabad between Akro and Petaro in the southern part of the Sindh Province approximately 145 kms (90 miles) from the Indian border. The garrison covers an area of 6.9 square kms (2.7 square miles) and has been expanded significantly since 2004 (the base was first pointed out to me by Martin Bulla, a German amateur satellite imagery enthusiast). The Akro Garrison includes a unique underground facility located under what appears to be a missile TEL garage complex. The underground facility consists of two star-shaped sections located along a central corridor that connects to two buildings with covered access ramps. The six TEL garages appear to be designed for 12 launchers.


The Akro Garrison has a TEL area with unique underground facility. Click image to view full size.
It is not possible to identify the suspected launchers in the TEL complex from the available photos. But analysis of a vehicle training area in the northeast corner of the garrison shows what appears to be five-axel TELs for the Babur cruise missile weapon system.

In a hypothetical crisis the launchers presumably would load their complement of missiles at the base and disperse outside to predetermined launch locations in the region. The range of the Babur is uncertain; NASIC reports it as 350 km (217 miles) while the Pakistan government claims a range of more than 500 kms (373 miles), sometimes as much as 700 kms (435 miles). The Akro unit would be able to defend all of the southeastern part of Pakistan, including Karachi.

Gujranwala Garrison: This sprawling base complex covers an area of approximately 30 square kms (11.5 square miles) and is located (32.2410, 74.0730) in the northeastern part of the Punjab Province approximately 60 kms (37 miles) from the Indian border. Since 2010, the base has added what appears to be a TEL launcher area in the western part of the complex. There is also what appears to be a technical area for servicing the launchers. The TEL area became operational in 2014 or 2015. The TEL area appears to be made up of two identical sections (each consisting of launcher garages, a weapons loading hall, and a weapons storage igloo), each similar in design to the TEL area at Pano Aqil. The security perimeter appears to have room for a third TEL section. (This and other facilities have also been spotted by https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven.)


The Gujranwala Garrison appears to be a base for the NASR tactical nuclear-capable launcher. Click image to view full size.
Several trucks have been seen on the satellite pictures that strongly resemble the NASR short-range missile launcher. It is impossible to identify the launchers with certainty due to the relatively poor quality of the pictures (the launchers could potentially also be multiple rocket launchers), but the resemblance is strong with a drivers cabin, a power and hydraulics unit, and a twin box launcher seen on NASR test launch photos published by the Pakistan military. The range of the NASR is equal to the base’s distance from the Indian border.

Khuzdar Garrison: Of the missile garrisons located so far, the Khuzdar Garrison some 220 kms (136 miles) west of Sukkur in south-east Balochistan Province is the one located (27.7222, 66.6241) the farthest from the Indian border (295 kms or 183 miles). The base is split in two sections: a northern section and a southern section (where the TELs are based).

Possible launchers have not been seen and identified in Khuzdar photos, but the TEL garages are longer than at all the other bases except the Sargodha Garrison. This could potentially be a base for Shaheen-2 medium-range missile launchers.


The Khuzdar Garrison might deploy Shaheen-2 launchers. Click image to view full size.
The TEL area includes what appears to be an underground facility similar to the one identified at the Akro Garrison. It consists of two buildings on covered access ramps that probably provide TEL access to an underground weapons storage and handling facility.

Khuzdar appears to also have a second underground facility approximately 600 meters (1,800 feet) east of the TEL area. This facility has roughly the same overall dimensions as the suspected underground facility between the access ramps inside the TEL area, but the second facility has no TEL facilities on top of it and does not appear to have clear access points. One potential possibility is that this facility may be intended for a second TEL area in the future.

Pano Aqil Garrison: The Pano Aqil Garrison is split up in several sections that cover a combined area of nearly 20 square kms (7.7 square miles). This includes the main garrison area, a TEL area (27.8328, 69.1575), a munitions depot, an airfield, and a shooting range. The base is located approximately 80 kms (50 miles) from the Indian border in the northern part of the Sindh Province.

The TEL area is located 1.8 kms (1.2 miles) northeast of the main garrison and includes five TEL garages (a sixth is under construction) and a service building. At the north end of the facility are located a weapons storage igloo and a weapons handling hall. The layout of the TEL area is similar to the Gujranwala Garrison (which appears to have twice the capacity). The five TEL garages can potentially hold 25 TELs although some of the spaces are probably used by support vehicles.


The Pano Aqil Garrison has a remote TEL area. Click to view full size.
Identification of TEL type is difficult due to the relatively poor quality of the satellite pictures, but it could potentially be NASR, Shaheen-1 or Ghaznavi short-range missile launchers.

Sargodha Garrison: The large munitions storage depot at Sargodha has long been rumored to include TEL garages. The facilities date back to the mid-1990s when Pakistan was first reported to have acquired M-11 missiles from China (DF-11 or CSS-7), which was used to produce what is now known as Pakistan’s Ghaznavi and Shaheen-1 short-range ballistic missiles. But the garages (31.9722, 72.6838) at Sargodha are nearly twice the size that would be needed by short-range Ghaznavi and Shaheen-1 launchers and seem better sized for medium-range Ghauri or Shaheen-2 launchers. There appear to be 10 TEL garages plus two garages with different dimensions that might be used for maintenance.

Yet the Sargodha complex has less of the type of infrastructure seen at other potential TEL bases. Much of the infrastructure seen might be used by personnel that maintain the large weapons depot itself. Whatever the large garages are used for, they are currently being upgraded and additional infrastructure is being added.


The Sargodha Garrison has large garages and underground facilities. Click to view full size.
The Sargodha complex also includes several underground facilities, including a section with two large buildings that could potentially be missile handling halls. Additional tunnels are under construction.

National Development Complex: Several of the TEL types seen or suspected at the different missile garrisons are assembled at the National Development Complex (sometimes called National Defense Complex), or NDC. It consists of a string of facilities scattered across the Kala-Chitta Mountain Range west of Islamabad. But the heart of the complex is the TEL assembly section north of Fateh Jang (33.6292, 72.7106). NDC reportedly emerged in the mid-1990s to produce Gazhnavi and Shaheen-1 short-range ballistic missiles based on technology supplied by China.

Since then NDC has expanded considerably to include facilities west and east of the central TEL assembly area. The central area has expanded considerably since 2003, with the addition of a TEL truck assembly facility as well as three large high-bay TEL assembly halls for mounting missile compartments onto TEL trucks. For the past ten years, these facilities have been busy producing Shaheen-2 medium-range ballistic missile launchers and Babur ground-launched cruise missile launchers.


The National Development Complex assembles Shaheen and Babur missile launchers. Click image to view full size.
Satellite pictures give an example of the flow of production of different TEL types at NDC and also provide valuable reference points for comparing dimensions of TELs seen at individual missile garrisons. Several pictures from 2016, for example, show both 6-axel Shaheen-2 TELs and 5-axel Babur TELs, and possibly also 4-axel Shaheen-1 TELs, in the process of assembly or maintenance. The 8-axel Shaheen-3 TEL has not yet been seen as this weapon system is still very early in production and not yet operationally deployed.

Air Bases

Pakistan has a large number of air bases but only a small number is thought to be involved in the nuclear mission. This includes bases with Mirage and F-16 fighter-bombers. United States officials have stated that F-16s were sold to Pakistan on the conditions that they could not be uses to deliver nuclear weapons, but other sources have indicated that some of the planes were converted nonetheless. French-produced Mirage aircraft are widely assumed to be equipped to deliver the Ra’ad air-launched cruise missile.

Masroor Air Base: This base is located (24.8855, 66.9280) west of the city of Karachi and has long been suspected of serving a role in Pakistan’s airborne nuclear deterrent. The base is home to the 32nd Fighter Wing with Mirage fighter-bombers and is located only 5 kms (3 miles) from a potential nuclear weapons storage site (24.9429, 66.9083).

Over the past decade, unique facilities have been construction at Masroor Air Base that might potentially form part of Pakistan’s nuclear posture. This includes a large underground facility that is located inside a high-security area. The purpose of the facility has not been confirmed and could potentially also involve command and control. Yet the facility is clearly unique compared with other Air Bases and might potentially serve as an underground nuclear weapons storage and handling facility. (Update: the underground facility is possibly a command center.)


Masroor Air Base includes unique underground facilities. Click image to view full size.
Another unique facility at Masroor Air Base is a hardened aircraft shelter connected by an underground tunnel to what appears to be a weapons storage facility. The purpose of this facility (first spotted by https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven) is unknown but could potentially be designed to enable concealed nuclear weapons loading of Mirage fighter-bombers.

It should be emphasized that despite the interesting features of some of the facilities at Masroor Air Base, there is no official publicly available information that explicitly identifies them as nuclear.

Mushaf Air Base: One of Pakistan’s oldest suspected nuclear-capable air bases is Mushaf Air Base located (32.0431, 72.6710) near Sargodha in the Punjab Province. The base is the home of the 38th Wing with F-16 squadrons that have long been suspected of forming part of Pakistan’s air-borne nuclear deterrent.

One pair of hardened aircraft shelters at the base are located inside an area with additional security perimeter but there is little visible evidence of nuclear facilities at the base. The munitions storage area shows no unique structures that suggest a nuclear weapons storage role.


Mushaf Air Base has long been rumored to have a nuclear role. Click image to view full size.
Instead, nuclear bombs for the F-16s at Mushaf Air Base might be stored at the nearby Sargodha weapons storage facility less than 10 kms (6 miles) to the south.

Others Air Bases: There are a couple of other Mirage and F-16 Air Bases that could potentially also serve a role as part of Pakistan’s airborne nuclear strike mission. This includes the Mirage-equipped base at Rafiqui (30.7580, 72.2822), which has been upgrade over the past three years. The F-16 base at Shahbaz (28.2825, 68.4506) has been upgraded considerably to accommodate the new F-16s (Block 52).

These and other bases could potentially serve a dispersal bases for Mirage and F-16 nuclear-capable bombers. But there is little visible physical evidence to suggest they serve a nuclear role. Likewise, Kamra (Minhas) Air Base (33.8697, 72.4004) has often been suspected to have a nuclear role but appears to serve as conversion facility for aircraft.

Conclusions and Implications

Commercial satellite pictures provide new information about Pakistan’s emerging nuclear weapons posture that includes missile garrisons for short-range nuclear-capable missiles, unique underground facilities potentially intended for nuclear weapons storage, and air bases with possible nuclear-related facilities.

The tactical nuclear-capable launchers do not present a strategic threat to India due to their short range, but their introduction into the Pakistani armed forces raises important questions about early dispersal of nuclear warheads and launch authority in a crisis as well as potential earlier use of nuclear weapons in a conflict with India.

We estimate that Pakistan currently has a stockpile of 130-140 nuclear warheads and is building more. But we also take note of statements by some Pakistan officials that the country might not intend to continue to increase it arsenal indefinitely but may soon reach the goal for the size of its full-spectrum deterrent. Whether and when that will happen remains to be seen. For now the Pakistani arsenal is in a dynamic phase.

This publication was made possible by a grant from the New Land Foundation and Ploughshares Fund. The statements made and views expressed are solely the responsibility of the author.

https://fas.org/blogs/security/2016/11/pakistan-nuclear-infrastructure/

On top of all the above, Pakistan has ALSO had the capability to produce Thermonuclear weapons since AT LEAST early 2011:

http://isis-online.org/isis-reports...g-nuclear-weapons-time-for-pakistan-to-rever/

 

[CriticalThought]

Since you have mentioned Ghazwa-e-Hind, I now correlate with your post the other day. And this above quoted extract from your post.

While you have a right to your view, you need to understand the repercussions here. Such statements, while may be attributed to you, are not in isolation, and is something that further undermines your own security, not enhance it. And it has been factored in by a multitude of nations for contingency based actions.

Such inputs serve to undermine the intent in whatsoever attempts at peace you (Pakistan) may profess.

Further, such statements undermine your claims to securing your nuclear devices, which, I happen to know is a fact (as also emphasized duly by @Oscar ) because the prevalence of this thought process exactly plays out in the narrative that has been built - of Pakistani devices being a risk of falling into hands of a radical. That Pakistan has tried to pass off Mumbai attack as an act of 'non-state' actor and subsequently delayed the trials or outright undermined the due processes of law, has not exactly helped it's case.

@Arsalan I hope you have gone through the thread.

There comes a point where narratives and confidence building measures become irrelevant. We are mentally prepared for that with appropriate flexibility in the doctrine.

Doctrine is just a document until someone precipitates its execution. Instead of tagging @Arsalan you should be writing to Modi & Co.

 

[M. Sarmad]

At the very end, there will be Ghazwa-e-Hind. The only thing is, nobody knows when it is fated to happen, and it is irrational to seek its precipitation.

Neither the Holy Qur'an nor Sahihain makes any mention of "Ghazwa-e-Hind"
This Hadith was fabricated by the Umayyads to justify their conquest of India

 

[Joe Shearer]

There comes a point where narratives and confidence building measures become irrelevant. We are mentally prepared for that with appropriate flexibility in the doctrine.

Doctrine is just a document until someone precipitates its execution. Instead of tagging @Arsalan you should be writing to Modi & Co.

You don't seem to know when you're getting off lightly. Just think this through: suppose it had been possible for him to 'tag' Modi!!!

"Ghazwa-e-Hind" is mentioned neither in the Holy Qur'an, nor on the Sahihain
This Hadith was fabricated by the Umayyads to justify their conquest of India

Ah, but think of the hours and hours of good clean fun it has given people down the ages.

 

[Mage]

Peace is like glass. It may be all around you, yet be invisible. But if you change your angle of viewing a little, it will reflect light more beautifully than any other object. Only when the glass is shattered then you understand that something important was there that no longer exists. Nothing argues for its existence more eloquently.

That's why people fail to appreciate peace.....they keep pushing it till they break the glass and then wonder what did they do to end up in this chaos.

Thanks @Joe Shearer..this is the best thread in PDF that I have come across in terms of quality.

 

[CriticalThought]

Neither the Holy Qur'an nor Sahihain makes any mention of "Ghazwa-e-Hind"
This Hadith was fabricated by the Umayyads to justify their conquest of India

I advise a secular revisionist like yourself to stay away from heresy. You are no authority on religion to even comment in the matter. The topic is dealt by authentic scholars are what I stated us the widely accepted position.

You don't seem to know when you're getting off lightly. Just think this through: suppose it had been possible for him to 'tag' Modi!!!

Oh please let's tag Mr 56 inch.

 

[PDFChamp]

That, dear Sir, is not a tough question, it's an obvious one. A quick aside: I always thought it was a cat arbiting between two monkeys; your wisecrack seems to point to a monkey with two cats.

Let's go with your analogy of the two monkeys. And, thanks for a very through explanation. What you wrote makes sense but what can be done about it? What can Pakistan to do to stop being the enemy in their minds? Are these forces self-propelling at this point and it won't matter what Pak does short of jumping into the ocean? Or, will it be once India becomes more successful people won't so easily give into by a "victim" narrative? Why is Uncle Don seen as a benefactor?

Can an honest digital platform, both in Pak and India, that people can go to expose this enough to avert the game? Or, people need an honest opposition to deliver for the people? Please shed some light on how this lunacy can be averted on both sides of the border both in near term and intermediate term.

 

[Nilgiri]

The added emphasis is for my personal edification. It is not a signal to others, as it is the whole thread that is worth reading.

@Nilgiri
@hellfire
@jbgt90 I hope you are better now, and I hope you read this thread
@Mage I need you to start following Oscar; read this one for starters
@Didact
@padamchen

Thanks for the tag.... this thread is ....interesting.

So are maintaining certain personas for change management.

Now I must return to the adopted persona..

I know that feel...

Peace is like glass. It may be all around you, yet be invisible. But if you change your angle of viewing a little, it will reflect light more beautifully than any other object. Only when the glass is shattered then you understand that something important was there that no longer exists. Nothing argues for its existence more eloquently.

That's why people fail to appreciate peace.....they keep pushing it till they break the glass and then wonder what did they do to end up in this chaos.

Thanks @Joe Shearer..this is the best thread in PDF that I have come across in terms of quality.

What are you doing here mr high-school attack helicopter?

 

[M. Sarmad]

I advise a secular revisionist like yourself to stay away from heresy. You are no authority on religion to even comment in the matter. The topic is dealt by authentic scholars are what I stated us the widely accepted position.

I do not need your advice, thank you

The scholars you blindly follow are also not an "authority" on anything
The only authority is The Book of Allah

What I have stated is an undeniable fact.
Neither the Holy Qur'an nor Sahihain makes any mention of "Ghazwa-e-Hind"

And JFYI, your ideological brothers i.e TTP quote the same dhaeef Ahadith on Ghazwa e Hind to justify their attacks on Pakistan claiming that it is (the first) part of Ghazwa-e-Hind