Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

[Arsalan]

Agreed but PAF hasent still been able to come out of "Falcon Spell" with 5.1 Bn $ Deal (correct me if i am wrong) we could have gone for Grippen NG with ToT we could have got 50~60 grippens (high end estimate) we could have just let falcons go through their life and switched to Grippens

it true that the US are not a good supplier to depend upon but the thing is that we have experience and infrastructure to handle the F16. getting a new system in limited wont have been a wise option as its cost get high when we consider the training and ground facility expenditures ao that is one reason that we sticked with the F16. i do agree with you that it would have been better to stitch away from the US market but perhaps we do not have enough money at the present time to take this step. any how we will have to do this one dsay or the other and i hope we have the options open for us on that day!

regards!

 

[Quwa]

Why do people keep saying this?
F-16C/D block 52 is just as high-tech as Gripen but that didn't stop PAF inducting a squadron. Same with the F-16AM/BM (F-16A/B with MLU) and the Erieye system.

I think the issue wasn't inducting simply the Gripen, but rather acquiring it with significant technology-transfer for license-production. We may have the talent pool to absorb such stuff, but definitely not the funds. For example another 4.5 generation fighter - the FC-20/J-10B - will not be acquired with transfer of production technology. We'll have to settle with JF-17 and ZDK03...poor people's Gripen and Erieye

 

[qsaark]

I think the issue wasn't inducting simply the Gripen, but rather acquiring it with significant technology-transfer for license-production. We may have the talent pool to absorb such stuff, but definitely not the funds. For example another 4.5 generation fighter - the FC-20/J-10B - will not be acquired with transfer of production technology. We'll have to settle with JF-17 and ZDK03...poor people's Gripen and Erieye

My understanding is, it was (the Gripen induction) more than a funding issue. The Gripen's RM12 is a development of American GE 404 power plant and Americans were not keen on providing us with technical know-how of that engine. The fear was that the power plant technology may fall into the hands of Chinese via us.

 

[SBD-3]

it true that the US are not a good supplier to depend upon but the thing is that we have experience and infrastructure to handle the F16. getting a new system in limited wont have been a wise option as its cost get high when we consider the training and ground facility expenditures ao that is one reason that we sticked with the F16. i do agree with you that it would have been better to stitch away from the US market but perhaps we do not have enough money at the present time to take this step. any how we will have to do this one dsay or the other and i hope we have the options open for us on that day!

regards!

Agreed again that we needed to build infrastructure and maintainence facilities but as you rightly said it is inevitable PAF should embrace the change now just consider if we have to do this after 10 to 15 years going forward.It still is to be done but one thing that this project would have done is that it would have given PAF with significant know how and would help in further upgarding of thunder as well (which at present derives perameters out of falcon)
the 36 Falcon deal was 3 billion (5.1 Billion in Total)
28 grippens costed 1.5 billion

here the post i got about it

PAF was given 2.5 billion dollar last year for foreign aquasition 28 of these Gripesn caosted 1.5 billion dollar last i read about they sold these jets i can't rember which country there are very few, well you do the math how much thet jets would cost this price tag was with Lgistical cost included, the ge F-404-400 engine is licenced built by Volvo in swede about 60 percent, and it is commercially available to any one they wan't to sell, Swedes have a more rigid policy of selling something that gives the Americans confidence on there well thought through decision. but an authorization is still required 60 percent of the engines is made in the US But i think PAF is considering
the french SNECMA M53-P20 which is teh Mirage 2005 engine. its is doable the Sweds have built a beautifulll and a very flexibal Platform.

the Avionics have been modified too BAE is now providing input as a partner instead of american firms

Any of you That are haveing a stroke on PAF purchases Read this extract taken from a crediable Source

Power plant Details

Built by Volvo Aero, under license from General Electric, and designated RM12, is an improved version of the F404-400 turbofan, used on the F-18, and has a dry thrust of 12,150 lbst and 17,800 with afterburner. With this power, the Grippen can achieve supersonic speed at any altitude, in spite of having fixed geometry air intakes. This engine can be acelerated from idle to full reheat in only three seconds. Sixty percent of the powerplant is made on the USA and the remainder on Sweden. Since the export of this engine is subjected to american authorization, Saab has studied versions of the Grippen powered by alternative engines: the Snecma M88-3 used on the Rafale and the Eurojet Ej200 used on the Eurofighter 2000. Volvo says that the fitting of these powerplants would only need small changes on the geometry of the air intakes, but certainly it would need time to make a proper development.

now compare what would have we got when we would have got grippens
to me the fear of US sanctions is redicilous. I mean we are still getting falcons right! so we are still exposed to US threat or not?

the link is below
http://www.****************/forums/archive/index.php/t-1751.html

 

[MastanKhan]

My understanding is, it was (the Gripen induction) more than a funding issue. The Gripen's RM12 is a development of American GE 404 power plant and Americans were not keen on providing us with technical know-how of that engine. The fear was that the power plant technology may fall into the hands of Chinese via us.

Hi,

The air marshall in his interview clearly stated that pak didnot have the ability to absorb the technology of the grippen. The interview is floating around somewhere on this board.

 

[SBD-3]

Hi,

The air marshall in his interview clearly stated that pak didnot have the ability to absorb the technology of the grippen. The interview is floating around somewhere on this board.

But still it was a ToT! not selling mere ACs as in case of falcons
.C'mon this is no excuse that we could not digest the technology.ok lets suppose we go with falcons going 10 years from now will we have the ability to digest any fifth gen plane then? if we have to start ab initio then why not today?

 

[Manticore]

Hi,

The air marshall in his interview clearly stated that pak didnot have the ability to absorb the technology of the grippen. The interview is floating around somewhere on this board.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/22396-interviews.html#post311899


grppen was planned to cover all the f7/mirages/a5... assembly would have been more costeffective as compared to a mere 40 j10b production line if tot wasnt so hitech.

 

[Arsalan]

Agreed again that we needed to build infrastructure and maintainence facilities but as you rightly said it is inevitable PAF should embrace the change now just consider if we have to do this after 10 to 15 years going forward.It still is to be done but one thing that this project would have done is that it would have given PAF with significant know how and would help in further upgarding of thunder as well (which at present derives perameters out of falcon)
the 36 Falcon deal was 3 billion (5.1 Billion in Total)
28 grippens costed 1.5 billion

here the post i got about it




now compare what would have we got when we would have got grippens
to me the fear of US sanctions is redicilous. I mean we are still getting falcons right! so we are still exposed to US threat or not?

the link is below
http://www.****************/forums/archive/index.php/t-1751.html

i fear we are not only exposed to us sanction rather we have been hit by them, i seriously doubt that we will get the Block 52!!
now all we can do is to wait for getting the JF and FC20 mature enough so that we phase out the F16s and after that we should keep an eye on whom we are purchasing our systems. i hope we dont go for US at that time!!

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

i think we are over with gripen now, we cannot induct so many new platform at the same time as it will require a lot of ground facility upgradation and staff training so for time being we better be happy with FC20 and JF programmes. in the mean time keep an eye on indian MRCA project and then move forward in 5 to 8 years time when the JF and FC are mature and then we can induct a new platform keeping in view our requirments after the MRCA flying in neighbour!

regards!

 

[SBD-3]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/22396-interviews.html#post311899


grppen was planned to cover all the f7/mirages/a5... assembly would have been more costeffective as compared to a mere 40 j10b production line if tot wasnt so hitech.

Exactly! Taking this point further is we are producing AWACS with China which we dont have any prior experience and manufacturing and maintainence setup how would we not be able to produce grippen?

 

[Arsalan]

Exactly! Taking this point further is we are producing AWACS with China which we dont have any prior experience and manufacturing and maintainence setup how would we not be able to produce grippen?

its not about our talents its about our capacity. i dont think that we will be able to handle JF17, FC20, AWACS (two different platforms, one swedish and the other the chines one) and a new fighter jet such as gripen all at the same time,what do you think!
also keep in mind that we will be developing JF17 at home, upgrading it and all that stuff! perhaps that is also one of the many reasons that Pakistan have not yet opted for ToT of FC20! we are talented enough by sadly we do not have resources to start so many projects all at a time, the FC 20 project is also intended for 2014 and hopefully by that time we will have some command on JF as it will be mature!

regards!

 

[SBD-3]

its not about our talents its about our capacity. i dont think that we will be able to handle JF17, FC20, AWACS (two different platforms, one swedish and the other the chines one) and a new fighter jet such as gripen all at the same time,what do you think!
also keep in mind that we will be developing JF17 at home, upgrading it and all that stuff! perhaps that is also one of the many reasons that Pakistan have not yet opted for ToT of FC20! we are talented enough by sadly we do not have resources to start so many projects all at a time, the FC 20 project is also intended for 2014 and hopefully by that time we will have some command on JF as it will be mature!

regards!

Grippen is also a sweedish AC manufactured lso by SAAB ideally competable with saab erieye and i dont think we would needed FC-20 when we had grippen on our side
regarding resources the grippen deal was worth 3 Bln USDs they would ve helped us in building infrastructure and it would ve saved us 2.1 Bln that we paid in addition to to US for falcons.Any ways ur right whe one thing is over let it be over and appologies if during the whole conversation (posts) my language became or seemed harsh to any one

 

[MastanKhan]

But still it was a ToT! not selling mere ACs as in case of falcons
.C'mon this is no excuse that we could not digest the technology.ok lets suppose we go with falcons going 10 years from now will we have the ability to digest any fifth gen plane then? if we have to start ab initio then why not today?

Hi,

It takes a lots of courage and cojones on the part of an air chief to admit our short comings----as a matter of fact it takes a lots of courage on part of anyone to admit their limitations.

As the technology is moving ahead in leaps and bounds---so is the distance in absorbing high tech is shortening as well, except for certain items.

We are still a very poor third world nation with very limited resource, technology, research and qualified individuals. Just because we have learnt to talk big----doesnot mean that our bite is big as well.

 

[SBD-3]

thank you mastan ok lets get back to topic any updates on Y-8 development and deployment and how many examples will pakistan produce and out of 4 how many will be chinese built and how many will be pakistani built??????????

 

[Munir]