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Pakistani Soldiers Wounded in New Kashmir Confrontation With India

Things are getting heated even when the so called government doesn't want it..


I guess we seeing the beginning of enough-is-enough by IA.
 
Yeah , right after you said how it was perfectly logical to blame Pakistan for provoking border incidents . Hypocritical , much , again ? A biased man accusing others of being biased , ironic , huh ? :azn: As for the judgement , you already passed it in your earlier posts whilst accusing others of ' believing things blindly ' .
People can read the dialogue and decide for themselves what is going on.

Imran Khan isn't doing well in the province , he's given the mandate to govern . Election promises are different thing , now its time to deliver instead of blaming the past all along for all the problems he's facing now and doing nothing to improve the situation . There's a reason why Pakistani public doesn't really like democracy and that reason is the past record of politicians . The army interferes when it sees that things are getting out of control and someone well needs to do something .
Keep kicking out the useless politicians until somebody useful is elected. Putting less stock in bigotry and more in a person's competence would go a long way.

Pakistan military will always be blamed for NATO failures in Afghanistan -
It is indeed difficult to blame NATO for military failures occurring in Pakistan. The drones help but further aggressive operations would require more cooperation with the Pakistani military which can't happen since NATO and the Pakmil seek different strategic objectives: NATO a functioning democratizing state and Pakistan "strategic depth" - that is, a satellite to throw its militants into and dominate from Islamabad, as in the "good old days" of the 1990s.

...I know my military well , I know its history , I know its mistakes and blunders but then again I know the reasons to justify its place on top , as well .
Then why aren't you seeking to prosecute those soldiers responsible for committing war crimes in E. Pakistan in 1971? Why are you happy with the Pakmil as it is - an army with a country rather than a country with an army? Or is it justified because the military isn't supposed to be accountable for its crimes, or can only be accountable if evidence is uncovered, evidence which can't be uncovered because the military doesn't allow an investigation by anyone other than the military?

Everyone else is biased , but you aren't somehow , right ?
Sure I'm biased: I like to see myself as an honest researcher yet as a Zionist and pro-democrat I frame everything through these two lenses. That doesn't mean telling convenient lies as so many Pakistanis do but it does leave the door wide open to misinterpretation. I suppose it's up to readers to decide whether my views have value or not.
 
People can read the dialogue and decide for themselves what is going on.

Keep kicking out the useless politicians until somebody useful is elected. Putting less stock in bigotry and more in a person's competence would go a long way.

It is indeed difficult to blame NATO for military failures occurring in Pakistan. The drones help but further aggressive operations would require more cooperation with the Pakistani military which can't happen since NATO and the Pakmil seek different strategic objectives: NATO a functioning democratizing state and Pakistan "strategic depth" - that is, a satellite to throw its militants into and dominate from Islamabad, as in the "good old days" of the 1990s.

Then why aren't you seeking to prosecute those soldiers responsible for committing war crimes in E. Pakistan in 1971? Why are you happy with the Pakmil as it is - an army with a country rather than a country with an army? Or is it justified because the military isn't supposed to be accountable for its crimes, or can only be accountable if evidence is uncovered, evidence which can't be uncovered because the military doesn't allow an investigation by anyone other than the military?

Sure I'm biased: I like to see myself as an honest researcher yet as a Zionist and pro-democrat I frame everything through these two lenses. That doesn't mean telling convenient lies as so many Pakistanis do but it does leave the door wide open to misinterpretation. I suppose it's up to readers to decide whether my views have value or not.

People will read the first line of your first comment here and understand what is going on :D Easier said than done , since the politicians do not appear to take lessons from their own past rules and do not mend their ways . By the time , they are ready to be kicked out in election , the country's almost on its knees . Pakistan just wants one thing from NATO - to seal the Durand line to some extent so it can operate in the tribal areas with an assurance that its efforts will not in futility . Why did the need to interfere in Afghanistan again , even arise ? Because last time , your nation left us all in the mess and went back to Washington to celebrate its victory against Communists and the dissolution of U.S.S.R. . With the anti-Pakistan forces again looking to create problems , we had to do something to prevent a hostile neighborhood . This , is the continuity of the conflict which started in the 80's . Moral Equivalent of American founding fathers , wouldn't you say , are the same people fighting the coalition in Afghanistan . The myth of strategic depth is very old and without any single statement , a friendly Govt in Kabul is all want . Actually , we tried our best to stabilize the situation in that country , even in good ol days of 90's , by getting the American founding fathers equivalent to sign Peshawar Accords , the last attempt before regional players pulled in and Islamabad had to take care of its interests .

I am , first of all , not seeking to discuss something irrelevant to this thread . Because , again , the politicians aren't capable enough to take care of the country , I and the majority of the Pakistanis are happy with the ' military leash ' . The accountability can come , within the army , as it always has until the political leaders mature .

Then , why is a biased man calling others biased and accusing ' people of blindly believing their Govt version ' ? :azn: Maybe , the person was seeing the whole thing through the ' nationalistic ' lens . I wasn't wrong when I pointed , you were hypocritical in your approach towards things . But , then again , the Pakistanis are being generalized as liars . Would I see you denying ever passing this verdict too , in your next post ?
 
Firstly it was .5 km and not 5 km.

Secondly the last time i checked not every Pakistani troop had a NVG and firefights are unpredictable so anything can happpen.We have had soldiers lying for 12 hours in jungles after having 3 bullets in their stomach and still surviving.

I don't believe Pakistani soldiers would cross the LoC just to stir up a fire-fight for the sake of it or even RISK being captured and interrogated.

Cross firings from fortified positions within bounds - sure that happens all the time no big deal. But to actually accuse us of crossing the LoC and ambushing indian soldiers -- engaging them - then just leaving casually......

I DONT BUY IT.



WHERE IS THE VERIFICATION THAT D.M. ANTONY IS REFERRING TO? Go public!
 
I don't believe Pakistani soldiers would cross the LoC just to stir up a fire-fight for the sake of it or even RISK being captured and interrogated.

Cross firings from fortified positions within bounds - sure that happens all the time no big deal. But to actually accuse us of crossing the LoC and ambushing indian soldiers -- engaging them - then just leaving casually......

I DONT BUY IT.



WHERE IS THE VERIFICATION THAT D.M. ANTONY IS REFERRING TO? Go public!

Waisee AZ Bhai, doesn't it beggar belief that we're able to have the faculty of mind to cross over undetected & do what we did & yet we were sloppy enough to not consider 'Oi eik tou reh giyaa haii' & 'Bodies ka kiya karein' ? :unsure:

Even my younger friend, a Cadet at Kakul, was like - Beraa gharaaak.....even we have the brains to know not to do this & yet somehow our seniors by a few years & many...many engagements & professional exercises are thought to be absolute dimwits by the enemy ! :disagree:
 
Actually that is exactly what i am saying....why would they

a.) leave a witness

b.) risk turning back and have him run back to the rifle and radio he dropped to report "evil Pakistani faujis" taking out 5 of the counterparts in his "unit" and then shoot back at them as they "retreated"

does it make sense to you? You guys claim our troops have some super-human ability to cross that deep across into iOK un-detected -- so you seem to imply they were hell bent on killing indian just for the sake of it. Why let that one live?

great logic! But I'm not buying it at all. This is fabricated, and I will wait till indian provide one shred of evidence because your D.M. Antony going to Door-knab Goatwami on Times Now and saying "we have verified proof" etc. is just not cutting it.

Many Kashmiris are angry about indian occupation of Kashmir. It easily could've been a one-off incident or some form of retaliation. I remember in the papers a week back or so I saw this.


Indian troops cross LoC, kidnap 4 Kashmiris

we did not do it...there is no proof we did it... give us proof :P

Really......either you can believe the govt. report..or not believe it... Indians are not even going to bother to convince you folks as some of you either believe 26/11 is an inside job or the murdering scum like TTP are freedom fighters..so yeah lets just leave it ....

Waisee AZ Bhai, doesn't it beggar belief that we're able to have the faculty of mind to cross over undetected & do what we did & yet we were sloppy enough to not consider 'Oi eik tou reh giyaa haii' & 'Bodies ka kiya karein' ? :unsure:

Even my younger friend, a Cadet at Kakul, was like - Beraa gharaaak.....even we have the brains to know not to do this & yet somehow our seniors by a few years & many...many engagements & professional exercises are thought to be absolute dimwits by the enemy ! :disagree:

Your army was unable to locate the 6th guy as he retreated and hid himself....


Am just waiting until someone says that this is an inside job as well ... those 5 soldiers are dead..they did not shoot themselves...not sure how you people can doubt claims...
 
we did not do it...there is no proof we did it... give us proof :P

Really......either you can believe the govt. report..or not believe it... Indians are not even going to bother to convince you folks as some of you either believe 26/11 is an inside job or the murdering scum like TTP are freedom fighters..so yeah lets just leave it ....

Abaiii tu agar Boba hai tou mein bhi teraa baaap Jango hooon ! :smokin:

Bhai dossier wasn't worth the paper it was written on & this is something coming from a bunch of Lawyers I talked to - eik certain Bar Association ka Audit kiyaa thaa mein neii ! :)
 
we did not do it...there is no proof we did it... give us proof :P

Really......either you can believe the govt. report..or not believe it... Indians are not even going to bother to convince you folks as some of you either believe 26/11 is an inside job or the murdering scum like TTP are freedom fighters..so yeah lets just leave it ....



Your army was unable to locate the 6th guy as he retreated and hid himself....

tell it your media-folks, everyday commentators and ministers...write to them

when you are ready to provide proofs rather than accuse Pakistan (especially its security apparatus) every time a stampede or fire cracker goes off in india -- then we will listen
 
@Armstrong , @Abu Zolfiqar and Pakistan is going to accept the evidence for the militants it supports ? no they aren't.... The entire world agreed to Indians claims of 26/11 , but not Pakistan...nu uh . Just accept the fact....you are NEVER going to accept any amount of evidence provided... so lets leave it ... its a never ending discussion

as i said...those 5 soldiers are gone...there is nothing to doubt...either your army did it..or the militants the army supports did it...... same thing for me
 
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I don't believe Pakistani soldiers would cross the LoC just to stir up a fire-fight for the sake of it or even RISK being captured and interrogated.

Cross firings from fortified positions within bounds - sure that happens all the time no big deal. But to actually accuse us of crossing the LoC and ambushing indian soldiers -- engaging them - then just leaving casually......

I DONT BUY IT.



WHERE IS THE VERIFICATION THAT D.M. ANTONY IS REFERRING TO? Go public!

What do you believe tell me?

Did you believe the PA was sitting in kargil or you came to know about it a few years later?


Moreoever you and others have no idea what goes on in the LOC...i belong to one such village near LOC.

Crossing LOC by both sides is regular.

Anyways like i said in another thread..the guys from Islamabad and karachi etc have more knowedlge than me about the LOC than me who has lived there.
 
@Armstrong , @Abu Zolfiqar and Pakistan is going to accept the evidence for the militants it supports ? no they aren't.... The entire world agreed to Indians claims of 26/11 , but not Pakistan...nu uh . Just accept the fact....you are NEVER going to accept any amount of evidence provided... so lets leave it ... its a never ending discussion

as i said...those 5 soldiers are gone...there is nothing to doubt...either your army did it..or the militants the army supports did it...... same thing for me

The entire world has moved on from 26/11 drama as there are much more pressing issues. The gunmen are all dead including Kasab so it is a case closed as far as we and the world are concerned



What do you believe tell me?

Did you believe the PA was sitting in kargil or you came to know about it a few years later?


Moreoever you and others have no idea what goes on in the LOC...i belong to one such village near LOC.

Crossing LOC by both sides is regular.

Anyways like i said in another thread..the guys from Islamabad and karachi etc have more knowedlge than me about the LOC than me who has lived there.

I've been near to the LoC. Thrice since 2004. In fact I have distant relatives in Azad J&K from maternal side of the family. So yes, I know much more than you do - someone who doesn't even know anything about military or the conflict zone itself.

And bringing up Kargil - a war fought by mujahideen and irregular forces that only later formally became a formal part of the army is pretty dumb as far as I'm concerned. A war isn't even being fought now. If it were, we'd be reading about far more than just 5 casualties.
 
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Solomon in our neighborhood you need a strong empowered army otherwise we would get eaten.

We are bordering Iran, Afghanistan and India who are hostile in some form or another.

We have no option but to empower the army for our own safety.

You know how the Indians are like, they will neither live or let live.

Are you sure the last line of your post is justifiable? Our post-independence history tells a different story. For a change, just let us live once peacefully, and then see whether we let you live peacefully or not. Problem is; your military establishment doesn't want peace for their own benefit.

I don't believe Pakistani soldiers would cross the LoC just to stir up a fire-fight for the sake of it or even RISK being captured and interrogated.

Cross firings from fortified positions within bounds - sure that happens all the time no big deal. But to actually accuse us of crossing the LoC and ambushing indian soldiers -- engaging them - then just leaving casually......

I DONT BUY IT.

WHERE IS THE VERIFICATION THAT D.M. ANTONY IS REFERRING TO? Go public!

Pakistani soldiers would cross the LoC to stir up a fire-fight if their generals order that. And the generals would order that to protect their own interest, it is not just for the sake of it.

Pakistan military establishment along with ISI is the most powerful & influential body in Pakistan, and they derive all their power, influence, and a fair share of Pakistan's GDP because of the enmity with India. They need to protect the existence of "India Threat" to protect their God-like position in Pakistan.

And that's why you will see whenever there is an effort to improve Indo-Pak relationship by their respective civilian Governments; something will be done to sabotage it. You may deny that, but that is how we see it.

Waisee AZ Bhai, doesn't it beggar belief that we're able to have the faculty of mind to cross over undetected & do what we did & yet we were sloppy enough to not consider 'Oi eik tou reh giyaa haii' & 'Bodies ka kiya karein' ? :unsure:

Even my younger friend, a Cadet at Kakul, was like - Beraa gharaaak.....even we have the brains to know not to do this & yet somehow our seniors by a few years & many...many engagements & professional exercises are thought to be absolute dimwits by the enemy ! :disagree:

Indo-Pak borders are heavily protected, but not full-proof against incursions, terrorists do sneak in across the borders. Indian soldiers were patrolling the area when they were ambushed. During peace-time, patrolling is done on a periodic basis, may be once in a day, week, or month, and more or less on a set path. Pakistani Army watched the patrolling for weeks or months, planned an ambush on a suitable spot few hundred meters across LoC, and executed it. What is so unbelievable about it? In any case, somebody has killed our soldiers, PA or terrorists. So, if you are saying PA is incapable of doing that, then you are suggesting that terrorists are more capable than trained PA soldiers.

And PA soldiers were not sloppy enough to not consider 'Oi eik tou reh giyaa haii' & 'Bodies ka kiya karein', actually they didn't have enough time for all these. They did a quick ambush and went back fast.

Whenever this "Aman Ki Asha" happens; we know that something bad will happen. Very unfortunate. :undecided:
 
The entire world has moved on from 26/11 drama as there are much more pressing issues. The gunmen are all dead including Kasab so it is a case closed as far as we and the world are concerned


The entire world has except Pakistan and India..as long as that murderous thug Hafeez saeed is in Pakistan..i doubt it till be a case closed..... Besides....my point is simple ...you will never accept any reason or proof even if its flying in front of your face...U.N accepted it world accepted it..but nooo not Pakistan....its those evil RAW who did an inside job.... Denial is a river Pakistan it seems


I've been near to the LoC. Thrice since 2004. In fact I have distant relatives in Azad J&K from maternal side of the family. So yes, I know much more than you do - someone who doesn't even know anything about military or the conflict zone itself.

and i have a relative in the royal family in England :P

And bringing up Kargil - a war fought by mujahideen and irregular forces that only later formally became a formal part of the army is pretty dumb as far as I'm concerned. A war isn't even being fought now. If it were, we'd be reading about far more than just 5 casualties.

Your own govt. accepted it was fought by your army


You might believe in a rtd Lt. Gen Shahid Aziz
 
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I've been near to the LoC. Thrice since 2004. In fact I have distant relatives in Azad J&K from maternal side of the family. So yes, I know much more than you do - someone who doesn't even know anything about military or the conflict zone itself.

And bringing up Kargil - a war fought by mujahideen and irregular forces that only later formally became a formal part of the army is pretty dumb as far as I'm concerned. A war isn't even being fought now. If it were, we'd be reading about far more than just 5 casualties.

LOL...Being thrice near LOC makes you more knowledgeable than someone who belongs their..you are funny.

Secondly,with the entire family in Army you are telling me i dont know about military and conflict...really funny.

Anything else?
 

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