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Pakistani Siasat is a piece of garbage from the garbage factory

Lets say if Musharraf had said no to US, the worst case scenario who be that they would have attacked Pakistan. Bhai Kutta ki moot sai marna sai bhatar hota kay hum mulk kay khatar martay.

But that is not Musharraf worst decision. He made 2 mistakes, first he didn't keep his promise of accountability and joined hands with the same people that are a menace in Pakistan and secondly he did NRO which resulted in the mess that we are in today.

What kind of logic is that " dying by a thousand cutsszzss is better than by single blow "?

Shirley death is inevitable. That is the only accepted fact by human beings.

Now with that musharaf bit. You will eventually understand it when you are wise enough.

No shortcuts to that.

So don't feed a troll or worst still misguide him. Lol. Bhains k seengh dekh k usko takkar marna aqalmandi hai ya na daani?
 
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The answer is simple brother.
You and I are not willing to give much to this country. Ayub Khan began Operation Gibraltar in 1965 but he was disappointed by people who were not ready to fight the Hindu occupation of Kashmir.

Musharraf knew that people in this country talk much and do less. So he saved Pakistan in the best possible way. You talk about a 'dog's life' but you know well that when it comes to money, anyone will not mind a dog's life, will they?

And accountability? Does anything like that exist?

جب پورا تالاب ہی گندہ ہے تو اس میں نہانے کا فائدہ؟

I belong to a family that gave 1 shaheed (1965) and 2 ghazis (1965, 1971) to Pakistan. If i had a choice i would do the same.

Regarding Operation Gibraltor you need to improve your history lesson. We pukhtoons were the first ones that stood up and fought for the Kashmiris and at that time the moral in the whole country was high. The reason we lost that operation wasn't because of the people but because of the Generals stupidity. For 3 days our Army was on the outskirts of Akhnur with Indians on the run but we didn't attack, the reason for the delay was that the GHQ ( Ayub Khan and Musa Khan) decided to change the command over to Gen Yahya Khan from another Gen (i can't remember his name) but because that Gen was from a minority (i think Ahmadi). This gave India ample time to bring in reinforcements and the momentum was lost and with it any chance of a victory.

And for your final statement about accountability, the reason it doesn't exist is because Mushy did NRO and went back on his promises which in my opinion is his worst act.
 
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I belong to a family that gave 1 shaheed (1965) and 2 ghazis (1965, 1971) to Pakistan. If i had a choice i would do the same.

Regarding Operation Gibraltor you need to improve your history lesson. We pukhtoons were the first ones that stood up and fought for the Kashmiris and at that time the moral in the whole country was high. The reason we lost that operation wasn't because of the people but because of the Generals stupidity. For 3 days our Army was on the outskirts of Akhnur with Indians on the run but we didn't attack, the reason for the delay was that the GHQ ( Ayub Khan and Musa Khan) decided to change the command over to Gen Yahya Khan from another Gen (i can't remember his name) but because that Gen was from a minority (i think Ahmadi). This gave India ample time to bring in reinforcements and the momentum was lost and with it any chance of a victory.

And for your final statement about accountability, the reason it doesn't exist is because Mushy did NRO and went back on his promises which in my opinion is his worst act.
Bro,

First, respect for contributions of your family to the defense of this nation.

Second, you are confusing Operation Gibraltar with Operation Grand Slam. Operation Gibraltar was launched earlier in which Pakistani agents were dispatched to Occupied Kashmir in order to motivate locals to resist Indian occupation; this uprising did not materialize (due to shortcomings in cooperation from locals) and Pakistani military establishment decided to take matters into its hands and launched Operation Grand Slam consequently. You are correct about the 'change of command' part and the rest.

Third, conflict with US is unlike conflict with India; battles with India typically ended near borders. US is a different beast altogether with vast power projection capabilities. I do not deny the fact that many are willing to sacrifice their lives for Pakistan (should need arise) but many more are not mentally prepared for horrors of war in current times either and Musharraf realized as much. A large segment of Pakistani society is now urbanized and accustomed to luxuries of life; you expect these to fight? Some might but many will spectate.
 
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What if Musharraf had said no to Americans and no to drone attacks?

Any guess?

He could have asked for a higher $$... reports say even the Americans were surprised how cheaply Musharraf caved in... plus he also sold children into American captivity for a couple $$
 
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ppp is the worst thing to happen to Pakistan then zia is second.
 
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He could have asked for a higher $$... reports say even the Americans were surprised how cheaply Musharraf caved in... plus he also sold children into American captivity for a couple $$

If he had had 'intelligent advisers like you', he would definitely had done as you said above.
 
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If he had had 'intelligent advisers like you', he would definitely had done as you said above.


Well it isn't about me... it's the incompetence of all Pakistani politicians and their corrupt ways. Take those factors into consideration then even a 10 year old can pass judgement.
 
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Well it isn't about me... it's the incompetence of all Pakistani politicians and their corrupt ways. Take those factors into consideration then even a 10 year old can pass judgement.

Well your above view was as if come from a 10 year old armchair analyst who has no idea what the ground realities are.
 
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Peace and blessings of God be upon all who believe in God

I am new to this forum but not new to internet or discussion forums. I have studied Pakistan's history and that of the subcontinent in good length. The kind of politicians I see today are the people who make me feel sick.

Our Prime Minister who doesn't know how to talk. His Urdu and English both are pathetic. Quite recently I saw Britain's Prime Minister Theresa May and I was impressed. She looks like an intelligent person. Not just her, look at Tayip Erdogan of Turkey; isn't he such a marvelous leader?

Now look at Imran Khan; the cursing factory. This man is mentally diseased who always blames people for wrongdoings as if he himself is an angel. His knowledge of history is pathetic yet he gives lectures on history to his 'educated' followers lol.

Zardari does know how to speak, he's learnt with time, but we all know that he's a 'chor' and such a big thug. There's no need to describe him further.

Siraj-ul-Haq of Jamat e Islami is another 'dhakkan'; I don't know which creature had bitten Jamat members that they elected this man as their head.

MQM, a band of terrorists and tapori jahils. Not a single person in MQM looks normal to me.

ANP, some of them are reasonable but they've been traitors to this country since Pakistan hadn't come into being. Frontier Gandhi and the dirty eggs.

Fazlur Rehman, sorry I don't wanna call him diesel. He's just another nutter.

Now who's left? Nobody.

That's why we deserve a leader like Ayub Khan or Zia-ul-Haq. Ayub industrialised Pakistan so heavily, gave us dams, developed our army. Zia revived the prestige of Pak Army which traitor Bhutto and his cousin Sheikh Mujib had taken away. Zia gave us nukes and missile technology. Even Musharraf was a thousand times better than these political chimpanzees in Pakistan.

So please my dear Pakistanis, say no to God's curse called democracy at least in our country. This is the right choice but for the wrong place. We don't want a Jahil and criminal voter to elect a Jahil and criminal politician as head of government and head of state. Please have mercy on the motherland.

wow - I'm so conflicted. I agree that the first past the post democratic system is a massive failure in Pakistan but the rest is just so utterly stupid. I won't engage you about the Pakistani politicians, you clearly have made up your mind and it's no point arguing with you. Two things I do want to address;

1 - Military leaders. What is the point? Every strong man who comes in leaves with his tail between his legs. Which military leader has left a positive legacy? Most of the ills we face today is because Pervez Musharraf signed the NRO letting all the criminals back in with a clean slate. Zia Ul Haq left us with the Jihadi culture. Yahya gave us Bangladesh, Ayub Khan (due to no fault of his own) left a bigger impact in Korea than he did in Pakistan. His 5 year plan model has made South Korea a developed nation, whilst we are still third world. We don't need a strong individual, we need strong institutions. I like many other Pakistani's dream of seeing the criminal politicians swinging by their necks from a tree, the only person strong enough to do that is the COAS, but what happens afterwards? Can soldiers build nations? So far the evidence doesn't suggest so.

2 - Theresa May?! This zaleel woman is the worst leader this country has ever had. She lost an election against an opposition that was dead and buried. I'd be suprised if she makes it to the end of the year! Please re-consider your role models for leadership. Jeremy Corbyn is a good example of a leader. Bernie Sanders is a good example of a leader. Theresa May isn't even a good example of a McDonalds worker.

I followed bit of UK election for the first time. Their parliamentarian system is similar to ours but 100 years ahead at the same time. If I'm not wrong pretty much all of UK candidates are average middle class or upper middle class. In Pakistan all are either industrialists or feudals. If someone isn't rich then he will become one by end of 5 years. Most have long family history of being in politics for one party or another.

Bhai from the outside looking inwards it can be difficult to see beyond the smoke and mirrors. The electoral process is transparent and civilised, but the people we elect are crooks.

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1 - Military leaders. What is the point? Every strong man who comes in leaves with his tail between his legs. Which military leader has left a positive legacy? Most of the ills we face today is because Pervez Musharraf signed the NRO letting all the criminals back in with a clean slate. Zia Ul Haq left us with the Jihadi culture. Yahya gave us Bangladesh, Ayub Khan (due to no fault of his own) left a bigger impact in Korea than he did in Pakistan. His 5 year plan model has made South Korea a developed nation, whilst we are still third world. We don't need a strong individual, we need strong institutions. I like many other Pakistani's dream of seeing the criminal politicians swinging by their necks from a tree, the only person strong enough to do that is the COAS, but what happens afterwards? Can soldiers build nations? So far the evidence doesn't suggest so.

It's nonsense when some people like you associate Jihadists with Zia-ul-Haq forgetting the Jihadists that Quaid-e-Azam used in 1947 to liberate Kashmir and it was a successful attempt as we did liberate Gilgit Baltistan and Azad Kashmir from the clutches of Hindu rule.

The use of Jihadists was once again successful in 1980s when America and Pakistan defeated Jewish-brainchild Communists in Afghanistan. Remember American-European Christians had failed to defeat Communism since its inception until Jihadists entered the battleground.

We used Jihadists in the interests of Pakistan because the liberals are too tender to carry a gun, they may only do an armchair-analyst job on internet.

Bangladesh was inevitable because Bengalis didn't want to live with us. The British designed partition in 1947 was wrong when it created one Muslim state rather than two (as was demanded in the Lahore Resolution). So basically, the seed of mischief was sown by the British in Kashmir and East Pakistan in 1947, the genetic mischievous code of the British Gora which also created a Jewish state.

Yahya Khan was perhaps the worst military general in Pak Army. He was not intelligent enough to understand the evil designs of 3 devils, Z.A Bhutto, Mujib and Indira (3 cousins). However, saying that Yahya was responsible for the fall of Dhaka is a misconception. You need to study history in good length to find out the factors that gave rise to this tragedy.

Zaheeruddin Muhammad Babur was a soldier, he built a great empire in the subcontinent that lasted for 300 years.

You can't have strong institutions in Pakistan until you change the mindset of people through good education. Multinational banks, consumer companies are operating in Pakistan but since the employees working in them are 'desis', you may see the difference they make in providing services. You buy for example Tang, Lipton or something from Pakistan and the same from Dubai or UK, you will see the difference.

We have in 70 years been able to make only one strong institution which is Pakistan's armed forces and the proof is we have survived despite Zionists efforts to destroy us.

2 - Theresa May?! This zaleel woman is the worst leader this country has ever had. She lost an election against an opposition that was dead and buried. I'd be suprised if she makes it to the end of the year! Please re-consider your role models for leadership. Jeremy Corbyn is a good example of a leader. Bernie Sanders is a good example of a leader. Theresa May isn't even a good example of a McDonalds worker.

Read my opening post again. I didn't idealise Theresa May except that she knows how to speak and looks like an intelligent person. She doesn't talk like the abusive clown Imran Khan or our Prime Minister who can't speak Urdu and English well.


This is the exact problem with democracy.

I belong to a family that gave 1 shaheed (1965) and 2 ghazis (1965, 1971) to Pakistan. If i had a choice i would do the same.

Regarding Operation Gibraltor you need to improve your history lesson. We pukhtoons were the first ones that stood up and fought for the Kashmiris and at that time the moral in the whole country was high. The reason we lost that operation wasn't because of the people but because of the Generals stupidity. For 3 days our Army was on the outskirts of Akhnur with Indians on the run but we didn't attack, the reason for the delay was that the GHQ ( Ayub Khan and Musa Khan) decided to change the command over to Gen Yahya Khan from another Gen (i can't remember his name) but because that Gen was from a minority (i think Ahmadi). This gave India ample time to bring in reinforcements and the momentum was lost and with it any chance of a victory.

And for your final statement about accountability, the reason it doesn't exist is because Mushy did NRO and went back on his promises which in my opinion is his worst act.

The history of Operation Gibraltar that you are telling looks like a tell-tale from your family of Shaheed and Ghazis; hence it's not reliable. History lessons should be taken from renowned historians not from the word of mouth service.

And if you talk about Pakhtoons then they damaged the Kashmiri Liberation Movement a lot in 1947 when a portion of their tribal fighters plundered Kashmiris and therefore lost their honour. If you want a history lesson for further details on this subject, ask me.

Musharraf did NRO because the judiciary couldn't find anything against Nawaz, Bhuttos and the rest. It was done under immense pressure from the West.
 
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I belong to a family that gave 1 shaheed (1965) and 2 ghazis (1965, 1971) to Pakistan. If i had a choice i would do the same.

Regarding Operation Gibraltor you need to improve your history lesson. We pukhtoons were the first ones that stood up and fought for the Kashmiris and at that time the moral in the whole country was high. The reason we lost that operation wasn't because of the people but because of the Generals stupidity. For 3 days our Army was on the outskirts of Akhnur with Indians on the run but we didn't attack, the reason for the delay was that the GHQ ( Ayub Khan and Musa Khan) decided to change the command over to Gen Yahya Khan from another Gen (i can't remember his name) but because that Gen was from a minority (i think Ahmadi). This gave India ample time to bring in reinforcements and the momentum was lost and with it any chance of a victory.

And for your final statement about accountability, the reason it doesn't exist is because Mushy did NRO and went back on his promises which in my opinion is his worst act.
Not only is he a babooni troll he is also a jaag punjabi jaag type nationalist
 
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Read my opening post again. I didn't idealise Theresa May except that she knows how to speak and looks like an intelligent person. She doesn't talk like the abusive clown Imran Khan or our Prime Minister who can't speak Urdu and English well.

Thank you for your time. Where intelligence is measured by appearance, I have nothing to contribute.
 
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Peace and blessings of God be upon all who believe in God

I am new to this forum but not new to internet or discussion forums. I have studied Pakistan's history and that of the subcontinent in good length. The kind of politicians I see today are the people who make me feel sick.

Our Prime Minister who doesn't know how to talk. His Urdu and English both are pathetic. Quite recently I saw Britain's Prime Minister Theresa May and I was impressed. She looks like an intelligent person. Not just her, look at Tayip Erdogan of Turkey; isn't he such a marvelous leader?

Now look at Imran Khan; the cursing factory. This man is mentally diseased who always blames people for wrongdoings as if he himself is an angel. His knowledge of history is pathetic yet he gives lectures on history to his 'educated' followers lol.

Zardari does know how to speak, he's learnt with time, but we all know that he's a 'chor' and such a big thug. There's no need to describe him further.

Siraj-ul-Haq of Jamat e Islami is another 'dhakkan'; I don't know which creature had bitten Jamat members that they elected this man as their head.

MQM, a band of terrorists and tapori jahils. Not a single person in MQM looks normal to me.

ANP, some of them are reasonable but they've been traitors to this country since Pakistan hadn't come into being. Frontier Gandhi and the dirty eggs.

Fazlur Rehman, sorry I don't wanna call him diesel. He's just another nutter.

Now who's left? Nobody.

That's why we deserve a leader like Ayub Khan or Zia-ul-Haq. Ayub industrialised Pakistan so heavily, gave us dams, developed our army. Zia revived the prestige of Pak Army which traitor Bhutto and his cousin Sheikh Mujib had taken away. Zia gave us nukes and missile technology. Even Musharraf was a thousand times better than these political chimpanzees in Pakistan.

So please my dear Pakistanis, say no to God's curse called democracy at least in our country. This is the right choice but for the wrong place. We don't want a Jahil and criminal voter to elect a Jahil and criminal politician as head of government and head of state. Please have mercy on the motherland.
all leaders, as you think, are not good but now where to bring the true and right leader who can lead us... a day is not far when a true leader will get this nation not from outside but among us.... so leader is somewhere there and one day i am sure will appear to lead the Pakistani nation.... yes
 
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