Pakistani kingdoms in mythical Mahabharat epic

[Kabira]

The question is....how does anyone know what an Aryan looked like when everything from their origin to their immigration pattern is shrouded in mystery?
Somehow you seem to be retrofitting your own views of what Aryans looked like to support your cause..
Do explain how you came up with the Aryan prototypical look...

Kalash in Pakistan language is close to original indo-aryan language. Kalash people have obviously mixed as genetic tests proves, but still have retained better their aryan features, language, culture and religion. And since we know aryans came via hindu kush, they seem to be ideal candidate for original aryans or indo-aryans.

 

[Peshwa]

Kalash in Pakistan language is close to original indo-aryan language. Kalash people have obviously mixed as genetic tests proves, but still have retained better their aryan features, language, culture and religion.

But how do you know that their facial features etc are such due to a greater influence of their closeness to Aryans than that of mixing with greeks, central asians etc over thousands of years?
Secondly you are confidently saying that they retained their Aryan features when NO ONE and I repeat NO ONE knows what the Aryans looked like
Have you a picture of this 5000 year old Aryan person to make this claim?

Lastly what was the genetic make up of the Aryans? or are you throwing darts and hoping to hit?

 

[Kabira]

But how do you know that their facial features etc are such due to a greater influence of their closeness to Aryans than that of mixing with greeks, central asians etc?
Secondly you are confidently saying that they retained their Aryan features when NO ONE and I repeat NO ONE knows what the Aryans looked like?
Have you a picture of this 5000 year old Aryan person to make this claim?

We know aryans were light skinned and caucasians from sttepe. Kalash have mixed not with greeks but other people around them, I said they have retained their features somewhat because of isolation. Not that they look 100% like they did thousands of years ago when they first moved in.

 

[Peshwa]

We know aryans were light skinned and caucasians from sttepe. Kalash have mixed not with greeks but other people around them, I said they have retained their features somewhat because of isolation. Not that they look 100% like they did thousands of years ago when they first moved in.

First off my friend, the Central asians or even caucasians themselves have been conquered and mixed with through several millenia...so claiming that those living in the present day areas of Central Asia are the prototypes for those that live 5000 years ago is an assumption of massive proportions..
Given that Aryan invasion is a THEORY and NOT a fact...we have to take all this with a grain of salt...

Secondly, Aryans in vedic texts have been described as nobles...as you know, in the subcontinent, the difference in skin color existed mainly due to the kind of work one did (ie. toiling in sunny fields and open spaces vs. the nobility having the luxury of being in shade away from the sun..
For all we know, the Aryan could have been a lighter shade of brown given that nobility and NOT some caucasian looking Anglo saxon prototype you seem to be fixated with...
There really is no way to tell..

Next, if the Kalash people were the Aryans or the remnants of the same, where is their 5000 year old history? Where are their scriptures, their original written alphabet..all that the Aryans possessed...the social structure, their heiarchy should have some similarity to the Aryans no? We may not know what they looked like, but we do know that the people who created the vedic religion had way and habits...this should appear somewhere in the Kalash..
I mean the Kalash as you claim have been living in the same region for over 5K years...where is the evidence of the same?

To be honest, most of what you are claiming are major assumptions bordering hearsay...

Please address these issues..

 

[Kabira]

First off my friend, the Central asians or even caucasians themselves have been conquered and mixed with through several millenia...so claiming that those living in the present day areas of Central Asia are the prototypes for those that live 5000 years ago is an assumption of massive proportions..
Given that Aryan invasion is a THEORY and NOT a fact...we have to take all this with a grain of salt...

Secondly, Aryans in vedic texts have been described as nobles...as you know, in the subcontinent, the difference in skin color existed mainly due to the kind of work one did (ie. toiling in sunny fields and open spaces vs. the nobility having the luxury of being in shade away from the sun..
For all we know, the Aryan could have been a lighter shade of brown given that nobility and NOT some caucasian looking Anglo saxon prototype you seem to be fixated with...
There really is no way to tell..

Next, if the Kalash people were the Aryans or the remnants of the same, where is their 5000 year old history? Where are their scriptures, their original written alphabet..all that the Aryans possessed...the social structure, their heiarchy should have some similarity to the Aryans no? I mean the Kalash as you claim have been living in the same region for over 5K years...where is the evidence of the same?

To be honest, most of what you are claiming are major assumptions bordering hearsay...

Please address these issues..

Brother aryan is not theory anymore, maybe it was centuries ago but not anymore. No one will take you seriously if you talk about OIT. Kalash are not living in central asia but hindu kush range. Central Asia is mongloid now, but many thousands of years ago they were caucasians going by mummies found in Tarim Basin in China and other parts of central asia.

Aryans were not anglo saxon, just because they were light skinned doesn't make them europeans. And Kalash language, culture, religion etc is closer to original indo-aryans.

 

[Peshwa]

Brother aryan is not theory anymore, maybe it was centuries ago but not anymore. No one will take you seriously if you talk about OIT.

Sorry but I am not familiar with OIT..whats the unabbreviated version here?
..I've known of AIT..
Nevertheless, point being that its now common knowledge that it was an Immigration or Aryan migration than an Invasion..
It is professed that the group of languages and its people originated somewhere between India and Europe...Some say Central Asia, or even Anatolia..
Given the massive history of conquests and mixing of people in these regions, it cannot be ascertained
a. exact place of origin
b. exact look and features...
Light skinned does not mean european look...it could be mongloid, it could be what presentt day Iranians are, or even the lighter brown north Indians...
All we know if that they were nobles...as per the text,..
So their lighter skin could be genetic as in the case of caucasians, or because of their status ie. not having to work in the fields etc..

Kalash are not living in central asia but hindu kush range. Central Asia is mongloid now, but many thousands of years ago they were caucasians going by mummies found in Tarim Basin in China and other parts of central asia.

I am aware of the Kalash's locations my friend, but there are massive variations between the central asians and even the caucasians themselves..so what their look was cannot be ascertained..
Simply having fair skin does not equate to finding a connection..
Facial features etc are unknown..those which are affected by geography and external factors such as the environment..

Aryans were not anglo saxon, just because they were light skinned doesn't make them europeans. And Kalash language, culture, religion etc is closer to original indo-aryans.

If your claim is based on a linguistic connection, I can work with it..
But please do point out the similarities in the culture that you have observed in the Kalash people that would make them remnants of the Aryans...and where is the evidence of religion?
What religion are the Kalash? Do they show evidence of Vedic religions?
Lastly, and most importantly, the Kalash should have a native alphabet..Which the Aryans possessed...
Where are the Kalash texts that show a similarity of the Alphabet?

 

[Kabira]

Sorry but I am not familiar with OIT..whats the unabbreviated version here?
..I've known of AIT..
Nevertheless, point being that its now common knowledge that it was an Immigration or Aryan migration than an Invasion..
It is professed that the group of languages and its people originated somewhere between India and Europe...Some say Central Asia, or even Anatolia..
Given the massive history of conquests and mixing of people in these regions, it cannot be ascertained
a. exact place of origin
b. exact look and features...
Light skinned does not mean european look...it could be mongloid, it could be what presentt day Iranians are, or even the lighter brown north Indians...
All we know if that they were nobles...as per the text,..
So their lighter skin could be genetic as in the case of caucasians, or because of their status ie. not having to work in the fields etc..





I am aware of the Kalash's locations my friend, but there are massive variations between the central asians and even the caucasians themselves..so what their look was cannot be ascertained..
Simply having fair skin does not equate to finding a connection..
Facial features etc are unknown..those which are affected by geography and external factors such as the environment..




If your claim is based on a linguistic connection, I can work with it..
But please do point out the similarities in the culture that you have observed in the Kalash people that would make them remnants of the Aryans...and where is the evidence of religion?
What religion are the Kalash? Do they show evidence of Vedic religions?
Lastly, and most importantly, the Kalash should have a native alphabet..Which the Aryans possessed...
Where are the Kalash texts that show a similarity of the Alphabet?

In 2-3 thousand years facial features don't change unless you mix. People in that time can get tanned/darker but facial features changes with mixing. But since Kalash were living in relatively colder place for they didn't get much darker, but their average features changed little bit after mixing. Kalash actually don't look that different then other people around them in Hunza valley since these groups tend to have 20% caucasian component and lower s indian component of 20-22%. So not much difference there in genetics between kalash and other people around them. But here we are talking about religion and language.



''.[2] Kalash religion is similar to the religion that was practiced by Rigvedic aryans. Kalash have retained most of the Proto-Indo-Iranian religion (Indo-European religion). The Kalash people are unique in their customs and religion. The Hindukush area shares many of the traits of IIr. myths, ritual, society, and echoes many aspects of Ṛigvedic, but hardly of post-Ṛigvedic religion.[19] Kalash culture and belief system differs from the various ethnic groups surrounding them but is similar to that of the neighboring Nuristanis in northeast Afghanistan. In the 1970s there were a number of forced conversions. However, during the last two decades, protection by the Pakistani government has seen the Kalash double in number.[20]''

Kalasha (also known as Kalasha-mondr) is an Indo-European language in the Indo-Aryan branch spoken by the Kalash people, further classified as a Dardic language in the Chitral group.[3] The Kalasha language is phonologically atypical because it contrasts plain, long, nasal, and retroflex vowels as well as combinations of these (Heegård & Mørch 2004).
According to one scholar, the Kalasha language is the closest modern language to Ancient Sanskrit (old Indo-Aryan) closely followed by Western Dardic language, Khowar. [4]

Kalash people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kalash language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They indeed are only people who are closest to original indo-ayans.

 

[Peshwa]

In 2-3 thousand years facial features don't change unless you mix. People in that time can get tanned/darker but facial features changes with mixing. But since Kalash were living in relatively colder place for they didn't get much darker, but their average features changed little bit after mixing. Kalash actually don't look that different then other people around them in Hunza valley since these groups tend to have 20% caucasian component and lower s indian component of 20-22%. So not much difference there in genetics between kalash and other people around them. But here we are talking about religion and language.



''.[2] Kalash religion is similar to the religion that was practiced by Rigvedic aryans. Kalash have retained most of the Proto-Indo-Iranian religion (Indo-European religion). The Kalash people are unique in their customs and religion. The Hindukush area shares many of the traits of IIr. myths, ritual, society, and echoes many aspects of Ṛigvedic, but hardly of post-Ṛigvedic religion.[19] Kalash culture and belief system differs from the various ethnic groups surrounding them but is similar to that of the neighboring Nuristanis in northeast Afghanistan. In the 1970s there were a number of forced conversions. However, during the last two decades, protection by the Pakistani government has seen the Kalash double in number.[20]''

Kalasha (also known as Kalasha-mondr) is an Indo-European language in the Indo-Aryan branch spoken by the Kalash people, further classified as a Dardic language in the Chitral group.[3] The Kalasha language is phonologically atypical because it contrasts plain, long, nasal, and retroflex vowels as well as combinations of these (Heegård & Mørch 2004).
According to one scholar, the Kalasha language is the closest modern language to Ancient Sanskrit (old Indo-Aryan) closely followed by Western Dardic language, Khowar. [4]

Kalash people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Kalash language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They indeed are only people who are closest to original indo-ayans.

Thanks, good read...

There indeed seems to be a connection between the Vedic Hinduism and the Kalash religion, though with slight variations..some traditions indicate a similarity, but others dont...
I could easily point those out if you please..

Nevertheless, the origins are still disputed with some scholars throwing their weight behind the Indo-Aryan origins, while others claiming the greek ancestry...
either way, both are hypothesis and none has been proven as yet...

The language angle is the strongest indicator of the connection so far, but their look is still debatable..
SIndo-Aryan languages are spoken from India to Europe and you know how the color and facial features differ in this vast landscape..

I am still perplexed though and a question you haven't addressed is, Why arent there any texts or native alphabet of the Kalash people? I mean the Aryans were pretty advanced linguistically with a native script... since the Rig Veda, modern hinduism, culture etc was well documented through vedic scriptures...shouldn't the Kalash have a similar tradition of scribe?
I tried to find a Kalash script but none exists...
Can you brush on this angle?

The Kalash population is miniscule but if they are the last bastions of the Indo-Aryan race, they should be preserved as strongly as the tiger or your beloved Ghenda...

good topic nevetheless, any other info you may have from resources on this topic is appreciated...

 

[Kabira]

Thanks, good read...

There indeed seems to be a connection between the Vedic Hinduism and the Kalash religion, though with slight variations..some traditions indicate a similarity, but others dont...
I could easily point those out if you please..

Nevertheless, the origins are still disputed with some scholars throwing their weight behind the Indo-Aryan origins, while others claiming the greek ancestry...
either way, both are hypothesis and none has been proven as yet...

The language angle is the strongest indicator of the connection so far, but their look is still debatable..
SIndo-Aryan languages are spoken from India to Europe and you know how the color and facial features differ in this vast landscape..

I am still perplexed though and a question you haven't addressed is, Why arent there any texts or native alphabet of the Kalash people? I mean the Aryans were pretty advanced linguistically with a native script... since the Rig Veda, modern hinduism, culture etc was well documented through vedic scriptures...shouldn't the Kalash have a similar tradition of scribe?
I tried to find a Kalash script but none exists...
Can you brush on this angle?

The Kalash population is miniscule but if they are the last bastions of the Indo-Aryan race, they should be preserved as strongly as the tiger or your beloved Ghenda...

good topic nevetheless, any other info you may have from resources on this topic is appreciated...

Come on, rig vedic aryans never wrote anything down...... I though you already knew this? Rig veda was written down probably in Gupta era around 4-6th century AD. 2 thousand years later at least. Kalash never had their own script, it was invented recently.

And that Greek bs has been long disproven. Basically europeans saw some fair skinned people in south asia and came up with lots of theories. But their euro centric racist bs doesn't disprove actual original aryans.

 

[Peshwa]

Come on, rig vedic aryans never wrote anything down...... I though you already knew this? Rig veda was written down probably in Gupta era around 4-6th century AD. 2 thousand years later at least. Kalash never had their own script, it was invented recently.

Well then how could there be a pre-rig vedic religion and practices and post rig vedic religion and practices?
The Kalash are said to have closer practices to the former...
Obviously the distinction exits because the Rig veda had its inception during the Aryan times..
If it were written 2000 years later, how does one demarcate these?

The original Rig Veda was written during the Iron age...aka 1200 BC or so...I think you are mistaken my friend....

And that Greek bs has been long disproven. Basically europeans saw some fair skinned people in south asia and came up with lots of theories. But their euro centric racist bs doesn't disprove actual original aryans.

Im no expert on the Kalash...but from my reading, all I gathered was that the two sources of origins are hypothesized...
And even you know that a theory and Hypothesis need to be proven before giving weight...
Let's agree to disagree..

 

[Bang Galore]

Secondly, Aryans in vedic texts have been described as nobles....

The word Aryan while meaning nobility was used in a very limited sense in the Rig veda. The Rig veda itself is a book where the only the 5 principal "lunar" tribes are mentioned, one of the most important tribes in India, the Ikshvakus (of Rama fame) barely get a mention in because they are a "solar" tribe. Even among the "Chandravanshis", the Rig veda is primarily a book of the Purus & more specifically of the Bharatas, a sub-tribe of the Purus. In the Rig veda, the word "Aryan" is used almost exclusively with the Bharatas/Purus, in essence it was what a particular tribe called themselves (not a whole bunch of invaders/immigrants). Over time as their influence spread, this was to extend, like the book itself, to a much larger area, eventually encompassing a large geographical area which was called Aryavarta. It also the same case of how the word Bharat (from the pre-Rig vedic king of the Bharatas) was to expand itself to mean the whole area south of the Himalayas (from east of the Indus) till the ocean by the time of the Mahabharata.

 

[Kabira]

Well then how could there be a pre-rig vedic religion and practices and post rig vedic religion and practices?
The Kalash are said to have closer practices to the former...
Obviously the distinction exits because the Rig veda had its inception during the Aryan times..
If it were written 2000 years later, how does one demarcate these?

The original Rig Veda was written during the Iron age...aka 1200 BC or so...I think you are mistaken my friend....




Im no expert on the Kalash...but from my reading, all I gathered was that the two sources of origins are hypothesized...
And even you know that a theory and Hypothesis need to be proven before giving weight...
Let's agree to disagree..

Nope, RV was written down in 4-6th century ad, google it. Before it was passed down orally for centuries, in fact thousands of years.

 

[KingMamba]

Not ivc you better use the term sindhu saraswati civilisation.

LMaoooo Indians making up terms now, reported for trolling.

 

[Bang Galore]

LMaoooo Indians making up terms now, reported for trolling.

It's primarily because of such arguments that most professionals in the field use the term Harappan civilsation, using the convention of naming it after the first find.

 

[Roybot]

You follow religion of invaders and speak aryan language. Unless you are dravidian, but even dravidian are hindus while speaking non-aryan language.

Bit rich coming from a Pakistan