Pakistani Ballistic Missiles: Indigenous Content & Development

[Imran Khan]

you missed few missiles sir please upgrade the list

raad

babur

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Guys...Every country needs to import some of technology.Just forget past how we got it.Just think about future what else we have to enhance further to counter future threats....
Waiting for some good news for more superior ballistic and cruise missile to be tested by Pakistan.

 

[Ibr0kEmYrAz0r]

Some interesting readings, and nice pictures. As I understand it, Pakistan has come a long way from making early generations of rockets to indigenously made sophisticated MRBM's. Tremendous achievement, especially considering by a country with far less resources.

 

[Safriz]

Agreed...Even the Russian Scuds themselves originated from the R-11 missile,which was a direct reverse-engineered copy of German V-2 rocket.

The thing is,by going through this "copying" logic,all of the missiles of China,North Korea,Pakistan,Iran,Iraq originated from the basic Scuds,which in turn originated from V-2 rocket.The thing that counts is,how many modifications and upgrades did a coubtry make...

Scuds formed the basic design of all ballistic missiles of the above mentioned countries.

There is a saying i am sure you may have heard or read?

"if it works don't fix it"

If a certain design of missile comlies with Pakistan's requirements,why should Pakistan make any changes to that?
And then there is the technical bit.....YOu cannot make a Ballistic missile square,it has to be tubular..You cannot make many changes to the fins of a missile,they look pretty much the same anywhere in the world.So there are technical limitations to how much innovation and modification can be made to an existing missile design.
In all the claims on media about Pakistan being a copycat in missile tech..never have i read a detailed analysis of why they say so? Is the rocket engine a replica of DingDong missile of Northy Korea? Or is the Inertial Navigation system designed by Iran? All claims of copying missiles are only based on Physical appearance of Pakistani missiles which cannot be different from existing Ballistic missiles...as i said..it cant be a square shape,it has to be a metal tube.
Pakistan's simple design depicts Pakistan's non aggressive and purely defensive strategy,as the missile design stick to the bare essentials,and that confirms Pakistan's commitment o maintaining minimum deterrent,not a world domination force.

 

[The Deterrent]

Girlfriend, Pleez! What difference does it make? Whoever gets on the wrong side of these will end up just as dead -- or will some then be asking, How dead?

Thats the point exactly.....all that matters is that do they work or not.They do,100%.

The title is named so as to invite as many as I can,the people who think that Pakistani missiles won't work or they are just copies...it is a fact representer for them.

 

[The Deterrent]

I think as long as they defend Pakistan or act as a deterant i couldnt care less about anything else.
BTW AhaseebA sahib i find it strange a guy from Pindi lives literally on IDF? Strange coz i think the activity is painfully slow on their. Whats the fascination with India? Do they have ballistic missiles that they have are better?

Actually I'm active in PDF but only in this section...I cannot manage to post in other sections too...

IDF is small (now even smaller),and I post there more to interact as much as I can with Indians.Also,I try to represent Pakistan there along with Jungibaaz.

I don't post there more because their missiles are better,though the fact is that their "under-development" missiles are better...

 

[The Deterrent]

you missed few missiles sir please upgrade the list

raad

babur

I know Sir,

The article is about the present (operational/tested) missiles...

If you are being sarcastic,that I forgot to mention Ra'ad (because its pure local product)...I didn't mention Ra'ad because this article is about Ballistic missiles only.However,I will Post about the cruise missiles too in a while,in this thread...

 

[The Deterrent]

There is a saying i am sure you may have heard or read?

"if it works don't fix it"

If a certain design of missile comlies with Pakistan's requirements,why should Pakistan make any changes to that?
And then there is the technical bit.....YOu cannot make a Ballistic missile square,it has to be tubular..You cannot make many changes to the fins of a missile,they look pretty much the same anywhere in the world.So there are technical limitations to how much innovation and modification can be made to an existing missile design.
In all the claims on media about Pakistan being a copycat in missile tech..never have i read a detailed analysis of why they say so? Is the rocket engine a replica of DingDong missile of Northy Korea? Or is the Inertial Navigation system designed by Iran? All claims of copying missiles are only based on Physical appearance of Pakistani missiles which cannot be different from existing Ballistic missiles...as i said..it cant be a square shape,it has to be a metal tube.
Pakistan's simple design depicts Pakistan's non aggressive and purely defensive strategy,as the missile design stick to the bare essentials,and that confirms Pakistan's commitment o maintaining minimum deterrent,not a world domination force.

Well,as I said,the problem with M-11 was poor accuracy and primitive design.So instead of mass producing exactly the M-11,instead Pakistan installed its own INS in it alongwith Post Separation Attitude Correction System (so ~50 m CEP achieved),introduced a more powerful engine,and with the help pf aero-spike,Ghaznavi was made able to follow a depressed trajectory.
The result...a highly advanced version of M-11,which creats a little bit problem for the ABMs too.

Ghuari-1 had a limited range and poor accuracy.So NDC designed the indigenous ReV for it,and KRL made a very powerful engine for making Ghauri-2.The result....Ghauri-2,more capable than its North Korean and Iranian counter parts.


Well,the rocket engine for both Ghauri-1 and Ghaznavi were replicas...yes the missiles resemble very much,thats why they are alleged to be totally copied...

 

[The Deterrent]

Pakistani fellow members,please...

Stop reading only the headings and the picture comparisons...I am arguing about the myths about Pakistani missiles being mere copies...

I have clearly described how Shaheen-1 has almost nothing to with the M-9,and Shaheen-2 is totally different from M-18...so both have almost indigenous designs...and they were made by the experienced earned while studying M-11 and making Ghaznavis...

In the end,all that matters is that your weapon works or not,because in the war nobody is going to ask about the origins of the weapon...people will see how much damage they can do.And by the Grace of Allah,our missiles are designed to execute the job there and then without any failure.

 

[SQ8]

Let me give a you a little addition to that ..
The origin theory is fairly accurate, However.. the CEP of Shaheen-1 is much much better than stated..take my word for it.
And the CEP was much much better in 1999..
The The Ghaznavi was the M-11..and initially in test firings the Ghaznavi with its locally modified engine wasnt ready.. so a M-11 body was mated to a rudimentary guidance system and launched. Current missiles are much more Pakistani than Chinese.

Still, a lot of changes were made to the NDC series of missiles.. The guidance system was a design based on a certain non-Chinese country.. and taking that design forward.. the current crop of missiles from NDC are a different beast from their varied origins.

Its another story when it comes to the Ghauri series.
The first Ghauri was a repainted Nodong... they did not even bother to change the serials on the bird written in Korean.
The second is also a Nodong.. which also answers AQ's many trips to NK..
Which were not exchange trips.. but cash purchases... and he wasnt the only one involved, a whole list of top brass and GOP honchos at the time were in it. They all decided to make him the scapegoat to save their skins...in the name of "protecting the nation".

 

[The Deterrent]

Let me give a you a little addition to that ..
The origin theory is fairly accurate, However.. the CEP of Shaheen-1 is much much better than stated..take my word for it.
And the CEP was much much better in 1999..
The The Abdali was the M-11..and initially in test firings the Ghaznavi with its locally modified engine wasnt ready.. so a M-11 body was mated to a rudimentary guidance system and launched. Current missiles are much more Pakistani than Chinese.

Still, a lot of changes were made to the NDC series of missiles.. The guidance system was a design based on a certain non-Chinese country.. and taking that design forward.. the current crop of missiles from NDC are a different beast from their varied origins.

Its another story when it comes to the Ghauri series.
The first Ghauri was a repainted Nodong... they did not even bother to change the serials on the bird written in Korean.
The second is also a Nodong.. which also answers AQ's many trips to NK..
Which were not exchange trips.. but cash purchases... and he wasnt the only one involved, a whole list of top brass and GOP honchos at the time were in it. They all decided to make him the scapegoat to save their skins...in the name of "protecting the nation".

Thank you for the information...I understand that ypur sources are based in NDC.

The CEP of Shaheen-1 was 90 m in a test flight,as said by Dr Samar.However,he has been retired for a while now,and we can expect the CEP to be less than 50 m in latest version.

But Abdali is shorter than M-11.I understand that its motor was directly derived from the M-11,but its dimensions are a bit different.Also,it uses a rail for launching,while M-11/Ghaznavi don't.Just a confusion,please elaborate.

The non-chinese country...My guess is a former Soviet state.

Agreed with the thing about Ghauri-1,it was a local Nodong.But Ghauri-2 has no proven counterpart in North Korea.Still,I take your word for it.

 

[SQ8]

Thank you for the information...I understand that ypur sources are based in NDC.

The CEP of Shaheen-1 was 90 m in a test flight,as said by Dr Samar.However,he has been retired for a while now,and we can expect the CEP to be less than 50 m in latest version.

But Abdali is shorter than M-11.I understand that its motor was directly derived from the M-11,but its dimensions are a bit different.Also,it uses a rail for launching,while M-11/Ghaznavi don't.Just a confusion,please elaborate.

The non-chinese country...My guess is a former Soviet state.

Agreed with the thing about Ghauri-1,it was a local Nodong.But Ghauri-2 has no proven counterpart in North Korea.Still,I take your word for it.

My bad... I was going to write something about the abdali but changed my mind at the last moment..
In any case.. Its better admitting we were able to equalize the missile gap quicker and at 1/20th of the cost... by using existing hardware as a foundation and building on that.

The ghauri-II is nothing but an enlarged Ghauri with a second stage.
And a co-developed guidance system.

The non-Chinese country.. is not a former soviet state..

The initial CEP of shaheen-I.. Lets just say Dr Samar was being modest.. and the people at the target sight saw the target flag flying off into the distance.
However.. subsequent tests achieved the average of <90m.

Those were the initial days, when these nuclear scientists had just stepped into the field of rocket design.
Today is a different game.. and there is a lot more NDC can achieve in terms of delivery systems.. if certain quarters and pockets allow it.

 

[The Deterrent]

The ghauri-II is nothing but an enlarged Ghauri with a second stage.
And a co-developed guidance system.

No,Ghauri-2 uses a single rocket motor...It is only 2 m longer than Ghauri-1.There is no proof available that Ghauri-2 has two stages.The ReV cannot be regarded as a second stage.

 

[Bratva]

My bad... I was going to write something about the abdali but changed my mind at the last moment..
In any case.. Its better admitting we were able to equalize the missile gap quicker and at 1/20th of the cost... by using existing hardware as a foundation and building on that.

The ghauri-II is nothing but an enlarged Ghauri with a second stage.
And a co-developed guidance system.

The non-Chinese country.. is not a former soviet state..

The initial CEP of shaheen-I.. Lets just say Dr Samar was being modest.. and the people at the target sight saw the target flag flying off into the distance.
However.. subsequent tests achieved the average of <90m.

Those were the initial days, when these nuclear scientists had just stepped into the field of rocket design.
Today is a different game.. and there is a lot more NDC can achieve in terms of delivery systems.. if certain quarters and pockets allow it.

A little question arises in my mind. During the testing of missiles. Let's just say it is designed for maximum 600 KM, how do they know that particular missile will travel that far? Based on how much fuel is poured in the missile?

And before the firing of BM, Did they put co-ordinates in it to hit the particular place? And Is there any mid course update module in our Ballistic missiles? If there is any, then how this module works? Is it that this module attached with sat link.?

Third thing. The Missile accurately hit the Flag. Does it means that the co-ordinates put in to Missile was accurately and precisely followed?

And if Missile hit the the target 200 Meters back or forward, then what does it mean, the atmospheric conditions made guidance system blurry that's why it didn't hit the target accurately?

One more thing, upgrading the engine of Missile means that it's speed and thrust increases both. so my question is, Does upgraded thrust means, The missile can carry more payload?

 

[Patriot]

It does not matter how much Pakistani they are as long as they deliver the payload successfully.