Pakistan to get more SAAB 2000 Erieyes

[A.P. Richelieu]

Sir jee, a group of PAF pilots thoroughly test Gripen C/D, and for all that effort they get their design copied in the form of JF-17. Do you think they are going to be happy with this? I almost feel as if Gripen NG was created with a vengeance to outshine the Thunder And of course they will sell it to India so it can go head to head with the... ahem, 'competition'

That is because You vastly overstate how much people think of the effects on Pakistan,
before they make decisions.

I doubt that Pakistani pilot have "thoroughly tested Gripen".
They may have gotten one or a few short courtesy flights, but that is nothing I ever heard about.

During a visit to Sweden 2004, Musharaff said in a speech, that Gripen was one of several alternatives PAF was looking at.
This surprised the prime minister of Sweden, since it had not been discussed in the meetings.
The Swedish government came back a little later and said that a Gripen sale was out of the question.
Why would SAAB allow a thorough testing by PAF without any prospective sale?
PAF might have studied official documents on the Gripen...

 

[Arsalan]

Just looking at the SAAB website for GlobalEye = 11 hours, EriEye = 9,5 hours.
GlobalEye uses Bombardier Global 6000.
It is 3 meters longer, providing more space for equipment and fuel.

Thanks man, this is new info for me!!
Other factors like per hour flying cost, maintenance etc may factor in as well, plus as i originally said, jet planes wont be able to our run the missiles either so this is not a defensive advantage anyhow.

Still, this is a nice information for me, thank you for correcting me on this.

 

[CriticalThought]

Besides maybe the cockpit, the PAF didn't copy anything from the Gripen. Ultimately, the Gripen, Tejas and JF-17 belong to the same weight and capability group.

Sir, ease of control goes a long way in establishing a fighter as effective in combat. Intuitive human-machine interfaces are notoriously difficult to make. It would be reason enough for the Swedes to hold a grudge against us.

That is because You vastly overstate how much people think of the effects on Pakistan,
before they make decisions.

I doubt that Pakistani pilot have "thoroughly tested Gripen".
They may have gotten one or a few short courtesy flights, but that is nothing I ever heard about.

During a visit to Sweden 2004, Musharaff said in a speech, that Gripen was one of several alternatives PAF was looking at.
This surprised the prime minister of Sweden, since it had not been discussed in the meetings.
The Swedish government came back a little later and said that a Gripen sale was out of the question.
Why would SAAB allow a thorough testing by PAF without any prospective sale?
PAF might have studied official documents on the Gripen...

You doubting something doesn't change anything.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Sir, ease of control goes a long way in establishing a fighter as effective in combat. Intuitive human-machine interfaces are notoriously difficult to make. It would be reason enough for the Swedes to hold a grudge against us.

You doubting something doesn't change anything.

The fact that you avoid providing any sources as expected,
is what changes your posting to uninformed chit-chat.

 

[DJ_Viper]

waste of money just get the SAM for defence

I agree with you. Put this money inside Pakistan. Get a few people trained and a few dozens sent for PHD's in the US and UK on this topic. Get TOT on ZDK systems and assemble 3 of them internally so you can build a local labor pool and industry around assembling Radar and larger airliner tech.

5 years from now, when you have the labor pool, industry setup and advance PH.D. holders ready to go, take the ZDK systems to a whole new level and build your own AWACS. You have the talent pool to do this stuff, use your people, build tech and save money by spending it internally. Just like the Israeli's did. Sell to others and make more money and reinvest in more R&D to build advance tech!!

 

[echo 1]

I agree with you. Put this money inside Pakistan. Get a few people trained and a few dozens sent for PHD's in the US and UK on this topic. Get TOT on ZDK systems and assemble 3 of then internally. 5 years from now, when you have the labor pool, industry setup and advance PH.D. Holders, take the ZDK systems to a whole new level and build your own AWACS. You have the talent pool to do this stuff, use your people, build tech and save money. Just like the Israeli's did. Sell to others and make more money and reinvest in R&D!!

Well said

 

[CriticalThought]

I agree with you. Put this money inside Pakistan. Get a few people trained and a few dozens sent for PHD's in the US and UK on this topic. Get TOT on ZDK systems and assemble 3 of then internally. 5 years from now, when you have the labor pool, industry setup and advance PH.D. Holders, take the ZDK systems to a whole new level and build your own AWACS. You have the talent pool to do this stuff, use your people, build tech and save money. Just like the Israeli's did. Sell to others and make more money and reinvest in R&D!!

A bunch of PhDs cannot give you industrial manufacturing. Ever. You fundamentally misunderstand the nature of modern doctorate programs.

In order to truly produce an indigenous AWACS, assuming we still acquire the basic jet from somewhere else, we would need technicians and engineers for:

1. Structural and aerodynamic analysis of the airframe and obtaining relevant international certifications for the final configuration after the modifications have been added in.

2. Design and manufacture of the electronic components. Also, at what level do you call this indigenous? If the basic electrical components come from China and are assembled within the country according to our own design, is this indigenous enough?

Then we need an industrial infrastructure to operationalize and mass produce everything. Doing this for just a few jets won't even make sense. There are so many other details that I haven't touched upon. But the main point is that PhDs do not automatically lead to manufacturing.

Thank you for your kind thoughts, but we like to think PAF knows what it is doing. Have a nice day!

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

But it would be a step in the right direction instead of begging for defence aid from US

 

[DJ_Viper]

A bunch of PhDs cannot give you industrial manufacturing. Ever. You fundamentally misunderstand the nature of modern doctorate programs.

In order to truly produce an indigenous AWACS, assuming we still acquire the basic jet from somewhere else, we would need technicians and engineers for:

1. Structural and aerodynamic analysis of the airframe and obtaining relevant international certifications for the final configuration after the modifications have been added in.

2. Design and manufacture of the electronic components. Also, at what level do you call this indigenous? If the basic electrical components come from China and are assembled within the country according to our own design, is this indigenous enough?

Then we need an industrial infrastructure to operationalize and mass produce everything. Doing this for just a few jets won't even make sense. There are so many other details that I haven't touched upon. But the main point is that PhDs do not automatically lead to manufacturing.

Thank you for your kind thoughts, but we like to think PAF knows what it is doing. Have a nice day!

Sir, you obviusly didn't read my post. Go re-read it please. It addresses all of your points in a short paragraph.
When you get ZDK TOT and local assembly rights, you'd get people trained on by the Chinese (just like the JFT) on all the points above. This isn't a motorbike you are assembling, it requires training and complete understanding of how all various laws of physics work through machines in integration radars with jet liners. You can buy the plane from other places if you don't like the Shanxi platform (I'd actually support that).

So you build the three - four ZDK internally as assembly. By the time you get your PHD's back, they can start to lead further research because you already have a baseline tech you are familiar with, i.e. the ZDK. Plus, the PHD guys don't just come in after reading books, the PhD is only given if you actually work in the industry and provide research so these guys will be getting trained and doing research on the latest AWACS, Radars, etc, in the US or UK. There have been thousands of Chinese guys who have come to the US, AUstralia, UK and elsewhere to learn advance stuff and do their PhD's, and then went back, look what they are doing in their countries today creating advance tech. Same goes for Israel and now India.

Hell, even the Saudia has over 20,000 thousand people a year graduating from various US schools with either Masters or PhD's in advance areas as the Saudi's are wanting to get away from Oil and start other economic related activities that would help them build an independent economy and Tech is one of the huge areas they want to focus on, especially the military tech and thus the $ 100 billion investment to buy US weapons, many of which will be assembled in KSA and / or their people trained on the tech in the US. I hope this helps you in understanding how this works. My first paragraph covered it for you but you didn't bother to read and understand it all the way. Thanks

 

[khanasifm]

Bottom line invest too much in each fighter platform or just few awacs to cover the area which may be cost effective way now your fighter has awacs eyes plus its own as well to be pitched against must superior opponent basically Swiss philosophy of gripen plus Saab Erinyes

 

[khanasifm]

https://www.google.com/search?q=awa...gC&biw=320&bih=460&dpr=2#imgrc=XIvEvMooJEN3XM:

 

[CriticalThought]

Sir, you obviusly didn't read my post. Go re-read it please. It addresses all of your points in a short paragraph.
When you get ZDK TOT and local assembly rights, you'd get people trained on by the Chinese (just like the JFT) on all the points above. This isn't a motorbike you are assembling, it requires training and complete understanding of how all various laws of physics work through machines in integration radars with jet liners. You can buy the plane from other places if you don't like the Shanxi platform (I'd actually support that).

So you build the three - four ZDK internally as assembly. By the time you get your PHD's back, they can start to lead further research because you already have a baseline tech you are familiar with, i.e. the ZDK. Plus, the PHD guys don't just come in after reading books, the PhD is only given if you actually work in the industry and provide research so these guys will be getting trained and doing research on the latest AWACS, Radars, etc, in the US or UK. There have been thousands of Chinese guys who have come to the US, AUstralia, UK and elsewhere to learn advance stuff and do their PhD's, and then went back, look what they are doing in their countries today creating advance tech. Same goes for Israel and now India.

Hell, even the Saudia has over 20,000 thousand people a year graduating from various US schools with either Masters or PhD's in advance areas as the Saudi's are wanting to get away from Oil and start other economic related activities that would help them build an independent economy and Tech is one of the huge areas they want to focus on, especially the military tech and thus the $ 100 billion investment to buy US weapons, many of which will be assembled in KSA and / or their people trained on the tech in the US. I hope this helps you in understanding how this works. My first paragraph covered it for you but you didn't bother to read and understand it all the way. Thanks

Let's take the JF-17 example. You agree that we have ToT on it right? Now, the fact of the matter is that having 5 PhDs will make no difference - we will still be dependent on Chinese assistance. And this is where you fundamentally misunderstand what a PhD can accomplish vs. what is accomplished through an industrial base.

In order to truly master the art and science of making fighter jets we would need:

1. Mechanical engineers specializing in aerospace.
2. Aeronautical engineers.
3. Materials Engineers.
4. Electrical and electronic engineers.
5. Manufacturing specialists who can work with the various aircraft materials.
The list is too long.

And the fundamental difference from ToT is that all these people should be competent enough to envisage and create entirely new systems on their own. ToT is a mechanical process whereby your superiors train you to replicate certain procedures and for the rest of eternity you keep making copies. That's ToT.

 

[DJ_Viper]

Let's take the JF-17 example. You agree that we have ToT on it right? Now, the fact of the matter is that having 5 PhDs will make no difference - we will still be dependent on Chinese assistance. And this is where you fundamentally misunderstand what a PhD can accomplish vs. what is accomplished through an industrial base.

In order to truly master the art and science of making fighter jets we would need:

1. Mechanical engineers specializing in aerospace.
2. Aeronautical engineers.
3. Materials Engineers.
4. Electrical and electronic engineers.
5. Manufacturing specialists who can work with the various aircraft materials.
The list is too long.

And the fundamental difference from ToT is that all these people should be competent enough to envisage and create entirely new systems on their own. ToT is a mechanical process whereby your superiors train you to replicate certain procedures and for the rest of eternity you keep making copies. That's ToT.

I don't think you are reading my post and caring to understand it. But yet, you are continuing to argue like a little child. Your post says exactly what I told you in my first post on this topic. I should've bullet pointed every sentence I guess as we are both saying the same thing.

Items 1-5 from above, are all covered under the PHD scenario I gave you! My post was explaining to train your own labor on let's say ZDK assembly line. While get your talent trained and educated for the future version of the advance tech for ZDK platform. Nothing is invented new here, we are talking about enhancing the platform internally and have a local R&D arm!

There is no rocket science here, and you don't need 100's of engineers with various expertise. If you want to sound negative and pessimistic, its your call. A small R&D department usually have a couple of senior engineers from each respective area mentioned. The rest are junior members who learn from the senior one's. The designer of the JFT was one guy, and so is the case for the FC-20 just so you remember.

The scale is much smaller here, no one asked to build a Lockheed Martin or the NASA. Just one specialty designer team for R&D on radars. The Chinese, Russian or the American consultants will teach you how to mount it on the plane and integrate it for cheap money if you can come up with your own R&D and build a couple of real, hi-tech radars / products. That is the hardest part requiring a lot of money and time, in Pakistan's case, if you have properly educated specialists experienced on Western platforms (through the PhD programs), the labor and cost both become extremely cheap. So you'd only have to pay someone to learn the integration on a plane once and you'll learn that as well. I hope this detail makes sense to you. Many countries started this way and now they have their own products, reputation and brands. Israel is on the top of this list.

 

[khanasifm]

additional Saab 2k news means Saab is preferred over Chinese awacs ??? Also Saab can talk to all assets in paf ??? My conclusion can be wrong ???

 

[Captain77W]

Would it be feasible for the PAF to start producing the Saab2000 and the AWACS systems in the Kamra aviation city ?

The Saab2000s could be reintroduced into the civil aviation market with some modern updates