Pakistan - The only Nuclear Armed State without a Sea-Based deterrent

[Hassan Guy]

US subs have 24 trident missiles in each submarine those are the bests subs and missiles in the world sea based.... Paks nuclear sub will have 10-12 missiles?

Hard to say, anything more than 12 is unlikely.

 

[Centurion2016]

USA subs are 12000 tonnes so they can carry massive slbm.

Pakistan submarines are tiny 2500.tonnes and I am talking about both the Agista and the new s20 from China.

Your subs are not big enough to carry a world class slbm.

Even India new arihant is only 6000 tonnes and can only carry six or eight missles.

To have any chance of a sea deterrent you need much bigger subs

 

[Hassan Guy]

USA subs are 12000 tonnes so they can carry massive slbm.

Pakistan submarines are tiny 2500.tonnes and I am talking about both the Agista and the new s20 from China.

Your subs are not big enough to carry a world class slbm.

Even India new arihant is only 6000 tonnes and can only carry six or eight missles.

To have any chance of a sea deterrent you need much bigger subs

The type of submarines Pakistan has bought from China have not been disclosed.

A dedicated VLS will be needed to launch SLBM's.

 

[Centurion2016]

The type of submarines Pakistan has bought from China have not been disclosed.

A dedicated VLS will be needed to launch SLBM's.

I refer you to the Naval thread You will see several forums on Pakistyani purchase of small diesel electric subs from china for $5 billion delivery between 2022-2030 .

YOU SIR HAVE PATICPATED in these threads.

So my point remains these are baby /junior subs that yuou people are buying they are non nuclear and not able to carry large nuclear missles

YOU MAY be able to place small missles or cruse missles BUT please don't compare to LA or Trident or Akula class subs these ships are 4 times the size and more

 

[EpiiC]

I refer you to the Naval thread You will see several forums on Pakistyani purchase of small diesel electric subs from china for $5 billion delivery between 2022-2030 .

YOU SIR HAVE PATICPATED in these threads.

So my point remains these are baby /junior subs that yuou people are buying they are non nuclear and not able to carry large nuclear missles

YOU MAY be able to place small missles or cruse missles BUT please don't compare to LA or Trident or Akula class subs these ships are 4 times the size and more

Do you think Pak will have a world Class Sub 10,000 Ton by 2025?

 

[DavidSling]

Except P5 and India no one has that.

Popeye Turbo SLCM—A reportedly stretched version of the Popeye Turbo developed for use as a submarine-launched cruise missile (SLCM) was widely reported in a US Navy observed 2002 test in the Indian Ocean to have hit a target at 1500 km. It can allegedly carry a 200 kt nuclear warhead. It is believed that the stretched Popeye Turbo is the primary strategic second strike nuclear deterrent weapon that can be fired from the 650 mm secondary torpedo tubes of the Israeli Dolphin-class submarines.[1] It is believed that the SLCM version of the Popeye was developed by Israel after the US Clinton administration refused an Israeli request in 2000 to purchase Tomahawk long range SLCM's because of international MTCR proliferation rules.[7] While the standard Popeye is 533 mm the Dolphin class submarines have four 650 mm torpedo tubes in addition to the six standard 533 mm tubes allowing for the possibility that a SLCM Popeye derivative may be a larger diameter.[8]

 

[Ultima Thule]

Do you think Pak will have a world Class Sub 10,000 Ton by 2025?

No chance

 

[EpiiC]

No chance

By 2030 we will have a nuclear powered sub?

 

[Ultima Thule]

By 2030 we will have a nuclear powered sub?

if we are lucky i think so but its a SSGN not SSBN

 

[Centurion2016]

David sling example of a conventional.submarine carrying a nuke tipped cruise missle is the most realistic scenario for pak navy imo.

And to be honest if your detterant is India that is more than enough

You will never be able to match the proposed Indian navy plan of five or six nuclear submarines in the arihant class as these subs are billion dollar plus and based on the akulla class subs of Russia .

But you don't need too as explained earlier

 

[Penguin]

I refer you to the Naval thread You will see several forums on Pakistyani purchase of small diesel electric subs from china for $5 billion delivery between 2022-2030 .

A good mid-ranger, I would say.

Certainly not small like e.g. Type 210 Ula or Nacken class (both 1,150t) or Sjoormen (1,500 ton), or the German Type 201/205/206/207(Kobben) of around 500 tons.

S-20 submarine

• Surface displacement: 1850 tons
• Submerged displacement: 2300 tons

____________________________________
Agosta 90B

• Surface displacement: 1,788+ tons
• Submerged displacement: 2,083 tons

____________________________________
Gotland class

• Surface displacement: 1,494 tons
• Submerged displacement: 1,599 tons

Archer class

• Surface displacement: 1,500 tons
• Submerged displacement: 1,700 tons

Type 209

• /1100 Submerged displacement: 1,207 tons
• /1200 Submerged displacement: 1,285 tons
• /1300 Submerged displacement: 1,390 tons
• /1400 Submerged displacement: 1,586 tons
• /1500 Submerged displacement: 1,810 tons

Type 212A

• Surface displacement: 1,450 tons
• Submerged displacement: 1,830 tons

Type 214

• Surface displacement: 1,690 tons
• Submerged displacement: 1,860 tons

Dolphin class batch I

• Surface displacement: 1,640 tons
• Submerged displacement: 1,900 tons

Type 035

• Submerged displacement: 2,100 tons

Type 039

• Submerged displacement: 2,250 tons

Dolphin class batch III

• Surface displacement: 2,050 tons
• Submerged displacement: 2,400 tons

Walrus class

• Surface displacement: 2,350 tons
• Submerged displacement: 2,650 tons

Collins class

• Surface displacement: 3,100 tons
• Submerged displacement: 3,407 tons

Type 039A/041

• Submerged displacement: 3,600 tons

Kilo class

• Surface displacement: 2,350 tons
• Submerged displacement: 3,000 - 3,950 tons*
  
• * three variants

Soryu class

• Surface displacement: 2,900 tons
• Submerged displacement: 4,200 tons

So my point remains these are baby /junior subs that yuou people are buying they are non nuclear and not able to carry large nuclear missles

If your submarine can fire 6-8m long 533mm torpedoes, it can tube-launch similar sized (nuclear) cruisemissiles.
As for baby/junior subs, not really. As far as SSKs are concerned, the largest boats today are Collins, Kilo and Soryu. The new Australian boats will be the largest conventionally powered subs in the near future. Clearly one does not go and compare a truely coastal 500 ton Type 206 with an SSN or SSBN, which by definition are larger than the largest SSKs.

YOU MAY be able to place small missles or cruse missles BUT please don't compare to LA or Trident or Akula class subs these ships are 4 times the size and more

Conventional powered AIP-equipped Dolphin class Batch II has tubelaunched nuclear-tipped SLCM. North Korea uses conventionally powered Golf II with 3 silo's for SLBMs (if a MIRV is used, you may set up to min. 9 and max 36 nuclear warheads on target: that's not peanuts)

NK and Israel have both ICBMS and SLBMs Making their nuclear program better and more advanced than us.

Israel does not have SLBMs.

 

[aziqbal]

Pakistan as had a nuclear submarines programme for some time actually over a decade

There are two parts

First Nuclear propulsion second nuclear missile

Both parts are very expensive and difficult also very slow

Soviet Union went bankrupt trying to match the US navy in SSN and SSBN numbers

SSN uses nuclear power to generate heat which boils water which generates steam which turns the propeller, no different to steam power submarines

Easy principle difficult job

SSBN needs miniature warhead and launching a nuclear missing from below waves is a enormous task

You need both, SSBN needs a escort the hunter killer SSN

So you can see this programme is very large

It's ace up the sleeve of any navy

Guarded in secrecy

Even Pakistan is not reinventing the wheel we are customising from china but still it's a slow process and progresses when funds are there

 

[nang2]

Following India's practice, maybe Pakistan could lease one from China.

 

[khanasifm]

S20 with w/o AIP- and with AIP size and specs are different

S26 is S20 with AIP and has 3600 ton and size 77 meter look at S26t specs for thiland

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...ubmarines-based-on-chinas-yuan-class-ssk.html

http://www.janes.com/article/61967/royal-thai-navy-reboots-plan-to-procure-submarines-from-china

 

[Penguin]

S20 with w/o AIP- and with AIP size and specs are different

S26 is S20 with AIP and has 3600 ton and size 77 meter look at S26t specs for thiland

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...ubmarines-based-on-chinas-yuan-class-ssk.html

http://www.janes.com/article/61967/royal-thai-navy-reboots-plan-to-procure-submarines-from-china

From the navy recognition article:
"The S26T is reportedly to be based on the Type 039A SSK of the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) also refered as Yuan class. It is a fairly recent design first commissioned in 2008 with a displacement of 3,600 tons and a length of 75 meters."
The 3600 tons is referring to the Yuan class (there is no S26T yet commissioned).

The often-quoted length of 72 meters for the Yuan class is actually its waterline length. This value is also consistent with Google Earth measurements. The submarine’s overall length from the analysis is just over 77.2 meters, which is consistent with numerous Chinese-language websites that list the length as 77.6 meters.
https://news.usni.org/2015/08/31/essay-inside-the-design-of-chinas-yuan-class-submarine