Pakistan - The future ?

[Hell hound]

@Paksanity Very good points you raise. We have to sail toward one direction. There should be long term goal. It's called clarity of vision.You can't just toss around because you will achieve nothing.

Turkey might be at geographic crossroads but we know which direction politically she is heading toward. Ever since Kemal Ataturk set the tone "Go West". Have look at their script, have a look at their cites, have look at the their political leanings. They point firmly to the West. NATO, OCSE, ETA etc.

Even trivial things like their car plates are now European standard with distinctive blue strip and country identifier "TR". Most of the vehicles are of European origin. The place increasingly acts and feals like Europe - nothing wrong with that but I am just making a observation.

Turkey does not use hanging even in case of PKK terrorists in line with European directives of non uses of death sentances. Turkey is country with European structures but with Muslim population fast being pulled into European version of secular religion like for example Christian Democrats replaced by Islamic Democrats aka Erdogan's AKP.

Turkey

Slovenia

Germany

France

Well we had a ready made SAARC built by the British and free of cost called "British India". We wrecked it in 1947 so if we want SAARC question is what was 1947 about? Some sick joke that cost millions of lives?

nah bro i still love beef.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

nah bro i still love beef.

Count me in. Any block as long as it's "beef block"

 

[jetray]

The world is slowly moving into regional blocks or supra-states. European Union is great example of this. These tend to first focus on regional trade and then as the countries build common interests and linkages defence structures also evolve to reinforce the trading blocks. European Union and NATO overlap although they are not exactly the same thing. Nevertheless there is no contradiction between NATO and EU membership. If anything both reinforce each other. You can see this how new members of EU in Eastern Europe have also joined NATO like Poland, Latvia etc.

Anyway I was wondering where is Pakistan's destiny. I ask members to look at the map below and I have drawn three potential future blocks.

1 - Central Asia/Iran
2 - South Asia/India (we had this ready made during pre 1947 British times but we broke it)
3 - Arab world.

I have not included Turkey because I have over time concluded that it is firmly embedded in the Western camp and will in time become fully allied into European Union. It already is there half way. Ditto for Azerbaijhan and the Trans Caucus region. I feel Pakistan needs to make it mind up and then work 100% toward that goal. Not sail like rudderless boat and let winds of circumstance decide it's direction. This is looking over the next 50 plus years.

Don't forget any policy is fraught with problems. It take's effort, sacrifices and lot of investment to get anywhere. The European Union was built on back of millions dead and a continent destroyed. I know people are going to ask "China?". Well China is going to be a superpower and she will always be engaged at differant levels in all regions. Although my feeling is China will have above average leverage on No-1 Central Asia because of proximity and history.

So vote and give your reasons please. This (vote) is for only Pak members although others can comment providing they have something positive to contribute.

Ps. Don't forget that geography, history and economics all play role in this.

There is no such thing as blocks, countries should trade where ever it makes economic sense to them. By pigeonholing themselves to a block or ideology they will lose out on the opportunities.
China or US is a good case they trade with everyone in spite of adverse relations. Defence wise every country will try to be independent of each other and should try to have friendly relations with neighbors to ensure regional stability. Stronger the country less it will be dependent on these blocks , they will create their own paths.

 

[That Guy]

Central Asia, in fact CPEC pretty much guarantees that happening.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

There is no such thing as blocks, countries should trade where ever it makes economic sense to them. By pigeonholing themselves to a block or ideology they will lose out on the opportunities.
China or US is a good case they trade with everyone in spite of adverse relations. Defence wise every country will try to be independent of each other and should try to have friendly relations with neighbors to ensure regional stability. Stronger the country less it will be dependent on these blocks , they will create their own paths.

There is. India is nearly 1.3 billion people or almost 20% of the world. That is bloody block in itself. so is China. However smaller countries have to join blocks. What is European Union? It started as a trading block or common market area.

1952. The original six members.

Today

The present and future - Notice Turkey, Ukraine and Georgia are lining up for the future.

 

[T-123456]

The world is slowly moving into regional blocks or supra-states. European Union is great example of this. These tend to first focus on regional trade and then as the countries build common interests and linkages defence structures also evolve to reinforce the trading blocks. European Union and NATO overlap although they are not exactly the same thing. Nevertheless there is no contradiction between NATO and EU membership. If anything both reinforce each other. You can see this how new members of EU in Eastern Europe have also joined NATO like Poland, Latvia etc.

Anyway I was wondering where is Pakistan's destiny. I ask members to look at the map below and I have drawn three potential future blocks.

1 - Central Asia/Iran
2 - South Asia/India (we had this ready made during pre 1947 British times but we broke it)
3 - Arab world.

I have not included Turkey because I have over time concluded that it is firmly embedded in the Western camp and will in time become fully allied into European Union. It already is there half way. Ditto for Azerbaijhan and the Trans Caucus region. I feel Pakistan needs to make it mind up and then work 100% toward that goal. Not sail like rudderless boat and let winds of circumstance decide it's direction. This is looking over the next 50 plus years.

Don't forget any policy is fraught with problems. It take's effort, sacrifices and lot of investment to get anywhere. The European Union was built on back of millions dead and a continent destroyed. I know people are going to ask "China?". Well China is going to be a superpower and she will always be engaged at differant levels in all regions. Although my feeling is China will have above average leverage on No-1 Central Asia because of proximity and history.

So vote and give your reasons please. This (vote) is for only Pak members although others can comment providing they have something positive to contribute.

Ps. Don't forget that geography, history and economics all play role in this.

Why not all options,why do you have to choose?
You think Turkiye chose the west?
Economicly,we deal with almost all options available,you should do the same.
As for military Alliance,we had no choice but to join NATO in those years,with all the enemies,it turned out to be a good decision,without the NATO Alliance,we would still be a third world country in military power.
You have a choice,the choice of not having to choose,you have nukes.
You have no real enemy,the only issue you have with India is Kashmir,im sure you will make a deal evetually.
Btw,Turkiye will never get in the EU,by the time they let us in,the EU will be obsolete.

 

[Zarvan]

Pakistan future is both with Arab world and China and Central Asia

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Why not all options,why do you have to choose?
You think Turkiye chose the west?
Economicly,we deal with almost all options available,you should do the same.
As for military Alliance,we had no choice but to join NATO in those years,with all the enemies,it turned out to be a good decision,without the NATO Alliance,we would still be a third world country in military power.
You have a choice,the choice of not having to choose,you have nukes.
You have no real enemy,the only issue you have with India is Kashmir,im sure you will make a deal evetually.
Btw,Turkiye will never get in the EU,by the time they let us in,the EU will be obsolete.

That's interesting observation. I base my opinion on many discussions I have with Turks in Europe. It's million pound question whether they will let Turkey in. Europe needs Turkey as bulwark against Russia. On the other hand Europe keeps raising the bar and has let in even ex Soviet buddies like Poland, Latvia etc.

Although I know Turkey is about to get visa free entry in the Schengen area of Europe.

Link > Declaring 'new beginning,' EU and Turkey seal migrant deal| Reuters

Pakistan future is both with Arab world and China and Central Asia

Buddy the only place Arabs will go is with the "Arab World". I don't think you have had much dealing with them. I know for sure Arabs don't think their future is with Pakistan. They won't even let their people get married to Pakistani. Apparently Indian's, English, American, Irani, Chinese are halal but not Pakistani. So much for your "arab brotherhood".

Link > Saudis told not to marry women from Pakistan, 3 other states - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

 

[T-123456]

That's interesting observation. I base my opinion on many discussions I have with Turks in Europe. It's million pound question whether they will let Turkey in. Europe needs Turkey as bulwark against Russia. On the other hand Europe keeps raising the bar and has let in even ex Soviet buddies like Poland, Latvia etc.

Although I know Turkey is about to get visa free entry in the Schengen area of Europe.

Link > Declaring 'new beginning,' EU and Turkey seal migrant deal| Reuters

We get the benefits but never the full membership(we dont need to),think about,why the need to get in when you already have most of the benefits?
We are in NATO so we are already the ''bulwark'' against Russia,so thats not a reason to let us in.
Those ex Soviet buddies cant change the leadership of the EU,they are to small.
When Turkiye is in,we together with the UK(Italy,Spain and Poland) rule the EU,you think Germany and France would want that ever happening to them?
Turkiye would get the most money for Agricultural development(France gets most now),infrastructure(eastern european countries get the most now) etc.
The EU is all about interests,nothing else.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

We get the benefits but never the full membership(we dont need to),think about,why the need to get in when you already have most of the benefits?
We are in NATO so we are already the ''bulwark'' against Russia,so thats not a reason to let us in.
Those ex Soviet buddies cant change the leadership of the EU,they are to small.
When Turkiye is in,we together with the UK(Italy,Spain and Poland) rule the EU,you think Germany and France would want that ever happening to them?
Turkiye would get the most money for Agricultural development(France gets most now),infrastructure(eastern european countries get the most now) etc.
The EU is all about interests,nothing else.

Makes sense. You make very valid points. Without a shred of doubt Turkey occupies very strategic location that nobody can ignore. The Bosphorus alone enables you squeeze the Russians. European route to Middle East goes through Turkey. You guy's got it made. When Seljuk Turks invaded Anatolia they must have been grandmasters. Taking Istanbul off the Byzantines was nothing short of a masterstroke.

 

[T-123456]

Makes sense. You make very valid points. Without a shred of doubt Turkey occupies very strategic location that nobody can ignore. The Bosphorus alone enables you squeeze the Russians. European route to Middle East goes through Turkey. You guy's got it made. When Seljuk Turks invaded Anatolia they must have been grandmasters. Taking Istanbul off the Byzantines was nothing short of a masterstroke.

Think about the power if and when we had/have nukes.
This should tell you something about Pakistan.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Think about the power if and when we had/have nukes.
This should tell you something about Pakistan.

I know mate but things are rather complicated. You have Russia as adversary. That is 140 million Russians. We have nearly 1,300 million Indians. By ratio that would be like Turkey facing nearly four Russia's. That is overwhelming numbers. Of course nukes is what provide the final deterance otherwise things would look pretty dicey by now with 1 to 6.5 odds.

 

[XenoEnsi-14]

Oh i accidentally voted no. 2 anyway my choice was no. 1

The Troll wants out.

 

[Zarvan]

That's interesting observation. I base my opinion on many discussions I have with Turks in Europe. It's million pound question whether they will let Turkey in. Europe needs Turkey as bulwark against Russia. On the other hand Europe keeps raising the bar and has let in even ex Soviet buddies like Poland, Latvia etc.

Although I know Turkey is about to get visa free entry in the Schengen area of Europe.

Link > Declaring 'new beginning,' EU and Turkey seal migrant deal| Reuters



Buddy the only place Arabs will go is with the "Arab World". I don't think you have had much dealing with them. I know for sure Arabs don't think their future is with Pakistan. They won't even let their people get married to Pakistani. Apparently Indian's, English, American, Irani, Chinese are halal but not Pakistani. So much for your "arab brotherhood".

Link > Saudis told not to marry women from Pakistan, 3 other states - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

Pakistan future is with Arab world and China and Central Asia. Pakistan and Arab world need each other and their future is together.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Pakistan future is with Arab world and China and Central Asia. Pakistan and Arab world need each other and their future is together.

Yes I can see their future is togather > Saudis told not to marry women from Pakistan, 3 other states - Newspaper - DAWN.COM