Pakistan tested Oplot... 2015

[Meliodas]

Though tanks are still useful Pakistan need sti up the ante on the drone spectrum really fast, unsuitable dmap terrains on the eastern border(sir creek and cholistan) can be compensated by taking the fight from ground to air.

 

[farooqbhai007]

If you have flown in enemy territory for more than a minute, and the territory is heavily guarded by air defence equipment, then you either have a supreme command of electromagnetics combined with cutting edge situational awareness of EM emissions, or you are about to become toast. The enemy has a range of options:

1. Turn off its radars, giving a false sense of security and avoiding leaking its wave parameters to ELINT equipment. The aircraft could be monitored passively through IR emissions.
2. Keep its radars turned on and do nothing, again giving a false sense of security. The aircraft is monitored to find out its objectives.
3. Fire warning shots, allowing it to turn back.
4. Shoot it down.

You can claim to have successfully penetrated an air defence network if you have extremely hi-tech equipment coupled with deep insight of electromagnetic theory. Or you penetrate the network in war time where the enemy won't be taking any chances.

Based on what you have said above, the logical conclusion is that the Indians now know that we have interest in Naliya. Since this has happened in peace time, it gives them time to prepare. Moreover, this is a failed mission no matter how you look at it.

If we penetrated based on technology and understanding, then India now knows our capabilities. On the other hand, if our drone was monitored through out, they now know its radar signatures, and its final objective. There is nothing to brag about here. If anything, we need to learn from our failure and try to avoid the same mistake again.


JF-17 scored a heat seeker kill on a tiny drone from 1 km distance. Now imagine what you can do when you have both a ground based radar and an airborne AEWACS, with almost unlimited power available to them. To top it off, even if you avoid radar emissions, your drone will still emit IR radiation. Or, it will stick out like a sore thumb against background IR radiation.

A scan eagle that flew in from the sea undetected and Jets were not scrambled to intercept is clear sign they had no idea the drone was there.
While a bigger drone was shot down in Rajasthan on same day , after radars detected it and Su-30s were immediately scrambled to intercept, secondly its not like Scan eagle is some phucking super weapon that its radar signature will be known, its field surveillance drone , among a wide range of other types of similar drones like Luna etc etc that PN has in it inventory. What can a scan Eagle do and what does it do ? Gather Imagery and data and it probably did , since the main assets in Gujarat are not at the airbases.
Secondly every Radar India has was active on 27 Feb , the most amount of radars ever active In India on sat imagery is in Late Febuary & March 2019.
Top notch radars that are meant to identify even the smallest drones failing at their task is something.

 

[waz]

Fast and high flying drone may be made of metals but slow moving drones are mostly made of plastics composites.

How can AWACS detect a small, slow moving drone made of plastic or carbon fiber?

Let’s ask the experts;

Can Awacs detect drones?

Answer (1 of 2): Yes they can. If you are talking about one of the sort of drones i worked on the Elbit Hermes 450 / UK Watchkeeper then its a yes. Drones of this sort are the same size and shape and speeds of a light aircraft to micolite and they are also fitted with IFF. I also worked on the...

www.quora.com

Yes they can.

If you are talking about one of the sort of drones i worked on the Elbit Hermes 450 / UK Watchkeeper then its a yes.

Drones of this sort are the same size and shape and speeds of a light aircraft to micolite and they are also fitted with IFF.

I also worked on the UK E3D AWACS and i currently have a DJI Mavic Pro 2 drone.

The AWACS radar WILL detect these drones.

They have a mass of just under 1Kg and have a lot of metal in them.

However it is unlikely that in normal operation that a track will be initiated on them, as such the Operator will not see it.

The return signal is there but low.

It sould only be flying at hights of less than 400ft above ground level.

My drone has a speed of upto 40mph.

The radar has software with filters that are designed to reture ground clutter over land and water. This stops the thing reporting cars trains and other vehicles. It also has speed gate filters and at 40mph speed difference to its background it will also be filtered out.

However, i said normal operation !

The primary radar filters can be altered.

Likewise AWACS has ESM systems.

These detect classify and if needed track opejects based on radio emissions.

This kit also has filters and in normal operation its set to ignor things like mobile phones and wifi and the like.

So, in normal operation an AWACS in Lincolnshire flying over its base at RAF Waddington at its normal hight of 29,000 ft will detect my drone being flown over my flat some 60 miles away in a stright line.

However it will not start a track or alert an operator.

BUT if they wanted to track drones in the area i like they can reset whats reported to a controller for my general area and the Drone WILL be reported:

Flying

Emitted DJI control link.

But it will also report or other drones and other clutter in the area and if i put the drone in a hover then the track will drop.

So if you sent an E3D up with a request to find out if drones are being flown in an area then yes they can do it.

But its not some thing they normally do and its not an easy thing to do


Also there are plenty of systems out there that can detect carbon fibre small drones.

Detecting Drones with Doppler-Based Radar

As drones become more commonplace, the need to secure facilities from the high-definition cameras and potential dangerous payloads has caused a rapid growth of counter-drone technologies.

www.aerodefensetech.com

 

[Invicta]

UK also used to be the "sun-never-set" Empire.

Technically it still doesn't - maybe that reality is lost on you.

 

[LKJ86]

Technically it still doesn't - maybe that reality is lost on you.

OK, I overestimated it.

 

[Akh1112]

Let’s ask the experts;

Can Awacs detect drones?

Answer (1 of 2): Yes they can. If you are talking about one of the sort of drones i worked on the Elbit Hermes 450 / UK Watchkeeper then its a yes. Drones of this sort are the same size and shape and speeds of a light aircraft to micolite and they are also fitted with IFF. I also worked on the...

www.quora.com

Yes they can.

If you are talking about one of the sort of drones i worked on the Elbit Hermes 450 / UK Watchkeeper then its a yes.

Drones of this sort are the same size and shape and speeds of a light aircraft to micolite and they are also fitted with IFF.

I also worked on the UK E3D AWACS and i currently have a DJI Mavic Pro 2 drone.

The AWACS radar WILL detect these drones.

They have a mass of just under 1Kg and have a lot of metal in them.

However it is unlikely that in normal operation that a track will be initiated on them, as such the Operator will not see it.

The return signal is there but low.

It sould only be flying at hights of less than 400ft above ground level.

My drone has a speed of upto 40mph.

The radar has software with filters that are designed to reture ground clutter over land and water. This stops the thing reporting cars trains and other vehicles. It also has speed gate filters and at 40mph speed difference to its background it will also be filtered out.

However, i said normal operation !

The primary radar filters can be altered.

Likewise AWACS has ESM systems.

These detect classify and if needed track opejects based on radio emissions.

This kit also has filters and in normal operation its set to ignor things like mobile phones and wifi and the like.

So, in normal operation an AWACS in Lincolnshire flying over its base at RAF Waddington at its normal hight of 29,000 ft will detect my drone being flown over my flat some 60 miles away in a stright line.

However it will not start a track or alert an operator.

BUT if they wanted to track drones in the area i like they can reset whats reported to a controller for my general area and the Drone WILL be reported:

Flying

Emitted DJI control link.

But it will also report or other drones and other clutter in the area and if i put the drone in a hover then the track will drop.

So if you sent an E3D up with a request to find out if drones are being flown in an area then yes they can do it.

But its not some thing they normally do and its not an easy thing to do


Also there are plenty of systems out there that can detect carbon fibre small drones.

Detecting Drones with Doppler-Based Radar

As drones become more commonplace, the need to secure facilities from the high-definition cameras and potential dangerous payloads has caused a rapid growth of counter-drone technologies.

www.aerodefensetech.com

Anecdotal evidence, i got shafted by the Airport police over at heathrow for flying my air 2 within 5km, they have radards to be able to pinpoint the locations etc. The RCS estimate i made was something like 2 or 3 m^2

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

AWACS I can assure you bro will. This was also Armenia at the helm, not battle experienced India.

To beat the AWACS corridors are opened via long range land, air and sea based EW systems, which have been turned into an art form by the Turkish engineers, thanks to their capability to indigenously design and fabricate GaN/GaAs based high power/frequency semiconductor devices.....

The Turkish HALE class drones Akinji & Aksungur are especially designed to carry the complete EW suits! Next in line are the jet powered ones!!! And, they'll have their very own long range AESA radars and BVR missiles!!!! Not to mention the best of the AI capabilities to do the fleet level C4I and execute the kill-chain on their own with very little on-the-fly human interference!!! So, it'll be like a battlefield by the drones, of the drones and for the drones...

For benefit of your limited mind, let me recap the main arguments:

1. The mere fact that an aircraft was able to reach within 10 kms of Naliya is no indication of the failure of the Indian air defence network.

2. If, in fact, we were able to evade radars all the way up to within 10 kms of Naliya, we have seriously revealed our capabilities to the enemy, who will now review his air defence in light of our capabilities.

3. The fact that ScanEagle was used now gives the enemy an insight into our preferred tool. He can make deductions on the capabilities, or lack thereof, in our other assets.

4. And finally, your limited brain has limited knowledge as well. The radar signature changes, as the azimuthal angle changes when a distant object gets closer. It even changes based on the aircraft's orientation relative to the radar.

5. And before you try to be smarter than you really are, yes the ScanEagle is a widely known craft and the enemy can get information on it from anywhere, but our job is to make the enemy's job as hard as we can, and not give him free information.

I will count this mission a failure. There is only one set of circumstances where we can call it success: it was our first test run of some advanced capability which we prefer to exercise before actual war, and we have credible intel that the enemy air defence network did indeed fail to detect the aircraft. And this is information that a moron like yourself should never be in possession of.

Hence, Pak needs to completely indigenize the critical parts and systems...

 

[Reichmarshal]

Enjoy...


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As I have stated earlier....Ukraine is helping HIT in the complete overall and up-gradation of
T-80ud...
.(which will bring it very close to oplot). Along with the fact that they are/were also involved in the up-gradation and retooling of HIT.
This visit was more to do with that aspect than anything else.

 

[farooqbhai007]

For benefit of your limited mind, let me recap the main arguments:

1. The mere fact that an aircraft was able to reach within 10 kms of Naliya is no indication of the failure of the Indian air defence network.

2. If, in fact, we were able to evade radars all the way up to within 10 kms of Naliya, we have seriously revealed our capabilities to the enemy, who will now review his air defence in light of our capabilities.

3. The fact that ScanEagle was used now gives the enemy an insight into our preferred tool. He can make deductions on the capabilities, or lack thereof, in our other assets.

4. And finally, your limited brain has limited knowledge as well. The radar signature changes, as the azimuthal angle changes when a distant object gets closer. It even changes based on the aircraft's orientation relative to the radar.

5. And before you try to be smarter than you really are, yes the ScanEagle is a widely known craft and the enemy can get information on it from anywhere, but our job is to make the enemy's job as hard as we can, and not give him free information.

I will count this mission a failure. There is only one set of circumstances where we can call it success: it was our first test run of some advanced capability which we prefer to exercise before actual war, and we have credible intel that the enemy air defence network did indeed fail to detect the aircraft. And this is information that a moron like yourself should never be in possession of.

What happened to the radar getting switched off.
Akash has max tested range 25km and proposed range of 30km, while SA-3 has Max range 22km, Spyder has range 20km with Python and 50km with Derby, If it was a safe intercept it shoudlnt have been at 10km.
You really dont have any idea how IA air defence works now do you ?
Naliya is Nuclear capable base, its a prime asset, extremely well defended .
To say we will send only Scan eagle is now something idiotic , PN has full range of other drones and will likely prefer to use the newer Luna's , Scan eagles on the other hand can be launched from ships and there is now way to know where they will come from.

 

[Itachi]

In a war between Pakistan & India , neither India expects its armour columns facing Armed drones and similarly neither does Pak. Unlike other scenarios the major fight will be for air superiority making it extremely difficult for drones to operate.
However India does posess limited IAI HArops that it intends to use against HVTs like Long range radars in Pak. Though Pakistan has a limited capability with armed Burraq drones as well.


But UAVs are the future and indeed very difficult to spot, something we demonstrated when a PN Scan Eagle Penetrated Indian Airspace, and made it <10km from Naliya airbase, where reporetdly a SPyder SAM was deployed that shot down a drone roughly <10km from the airbase centre. Almost every type of Indian Radar is deployed in Gujarat, and the drone snuck pass all of them.
Notably the EL/M 2084 Arudhra & THALES GS-100 radars were deployed at the base withe ranges 400km & 80km Respectively, In addition a Sa-3 battery with a early warning P-18 & Akash Batteries with a pair of Early Warning Rohini Radars were operational at the airbase as well , a THD-1955(500km) & EL/M 2083(aerostat-400km) long range radars were operational in the area as well.
In short all radars failed to detect the target despite Naliya being 100km away from the Border line.

Exactly......smart drones can hug the terrain and no amount of radar coverage will be able to detect them until it's too late...

Maybe radars in the air looking down can.....but they'll have to filter the drone from the ground clutter.

The US has worked on chains of drones as long as 50 km that go undetected deep into enemy territory (in exercises).

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Exactly......smart drones can hug the terrain and no amount of radar coverage will be able to detect them until it's too late...

Maybe radars in the air looking down can.....but they'll have to filter the drone from the ground clutter.

The US has worked on chains of drones as long as 50 km that go undetected deep into enemy territory (in exercises).

If India starts fielding drone swarms against tanks wouldn't we need something like the Korkut SPAAG??

 

[Itachi]

Let’s ask the experts;

Can Awacs detect drones?

Answer (1 of 2): Yes they can. If you are talking about one of the sort of drones i worked on the Elbit Hermes 450 / UK Watchkeeper then its a yes. Drones of this sort are the same size and shape and speeds of a light aircraft to micolite and they are also fitted with IFF. I also worked on the...

www.quora.com

Yes they can.

If you are talking about one of the sort of drones i worked on the Elbit Hermes 450 / UK Watchkeeper then its a yes.

Drones of this sort are the same size and shape and speeds of a light aircraft to micolite and they are also fitted with IFF.

I also worked on the UK E3D AWACS and i currently have a DJI Mavic Pro 2 drone.

The AWACS radar WILL detect these drones.

They have a mass of just under 1Kg and have a lot of metal in them.

However it is unlikely that in normal operation that a track will be initiated on them, as such the Operator will not see it.

The return signal is there but low.

It sould only be flying at hights of less than 400ft above ground level.

My drone has a speed of upto 40mph.

The radar has software with filters that are designed to reture ground clutter over land and water. This stops the thing reporting cars trains and other vehicles. It also has speed gate filters and at 40mph speed difference to its background it will also be filtered out.

However, i said normal operation !

The primary radar filters can be altered.

Likewise AWACS has ESM systems.

These detect classify and if needed track opejects based on radio emissions.

This kit also has filters and in normal operation its set to ignor things like mobile phones and wifi and the like.

So, in normal operation an AWACS in Lincolnshire flying over its base at RAF Waddington at its normal hight of 29,000 ft will detect my drone being flown over my flat some 60 miles away in a stright line.

However it will not start a track or alert an operator.

BUT if they wanted to track drones in the area i like they can reset whats reported to a controller for my general area and the Drone WILL be reported:

Flying

Emitted DJI control link.

But it will also report or other drones and other clutter in the area and if i put the drone in a hover then the track will drop.

So if you sent an E3D up with a request to find out if drones are being flown in an area then yes they can do it.

But its not some thing they normally do and its not an easy thing to do


Also there are plenty of systems out there that can detect carbon fibre small drones.

Detecting Drones with Doppler-Based Radar

As drones become more commonplace, the need to secure facilities from the high-definition cameras and potential dangerous payloads has caused a rapid growth of counter-drone technologies.

www.aerodefensetech.com

In a actual war, India probably won't be bringing its AWACS near the border.....50-150 km......so drones will have a field day within 50km of each others territory...

Especially drones that aren't made of metals but composite material, are intelligent and can loiter near ground...

If India starts fielding drone swarms against tanks wouldn't we need something like the Korkut SPAAG??

We would need that and more....

Thankfully their current drones are big and bulky, not small and agile. So we have an edge on them until they get better. My and of many other members suggestion is that we keep our edge and keep developing better drones...

 

[KaiserX]

VT-4s are superior in comparison to the Oplots. PA tested both extensively. Also the parts used are going to be compatable with Al-khalid 1/2s. Remember PAs tank procurement project is mainly for a quick stop gap due to low domestic production. Even increasing domestic tank production takes years therefore PA is looking at a requirment of 600 VT-4s that have inter changable parts with the Al-khalid tank series. PA intends to continue to focus on the Al-khalid 2/3 which is expected to also be similar to the VT-4/Ak1 series. PA with this order pretty much also got access to tech that can be used in the AK series as well.

PA will eventually have within the next 7-8 years-

-600 VT-4s (300 on order with likely follow up another 300)
-400 Al-khalid 1As
-400 Al-khalid 2/3
-320 T-80UD
-350 T-85 (being upgraded to Al-Zarrar 2 configuration)
-500 Al-zarrars

A solid tank fleet of modern capable tanks. If PA manages to get 200-350 light tanks like the VT-5s those would be huge force multipliers in the northern/gilgit regions and the border with Afghanistan.

A majority of PAs tanks will be stationed near the Indian border, yet PA can easily have 800 tanks stationed near the Afghanistan/Iran border.

Tank units could be organized into integrated battle units consisting of T-129s/Zi-10MEs/Mi-35Ps, Burraq/CH-5/MALE UCAV drones, Mechanized Special Forces as well as the PAF.

The PDF should be an integrated battle group that should be assigned to raid and penetrate into enemy territory, focused on causing disruption, a break down of enemy command, and gaining a quick initiative. Imagine PDF using integrated battle groups to quick capture a major strategic target such as Armristar and cutting off key points into Indian occupied kashmir.

 

[waz]

In a actual war, India probably won't be bringing its AWACS near the border.....50-150 km......so drones will have a field day within 50km of each others territory...

Especially drones that aren't made of metals but composite material, are intelligent and can loiter near ground...

True but the mistake here is to think that India will just rely on that, they won't. I've already put up a link where pulsed-Doppler radars can easily ID drones at low levels and those made of non-metallic parts.

To beat the AWACS corridors are opened via long range land, air and sea based EW systems, which have been turned into an art form by the Turkish engineers, thanks to their capability to indigenously design and fabricate GaN/GaAs based high power/frequency semiconductor devices.....

The Turkish HALE class drones Akinji & Aksungur are especially designed to carry the complete EW suits! Next in line are the jet powered ones!!! And, they'll have their very own long range AESA radars and BVR missiles!!!! Not to mention the best of the AI capabilities to do the fleet level C4I and execute the kill-chain on their own with very little on-the-fly human interference!!! So, it'll be like a battlefield by the drones, of the drones and for the drones...

Modern AWACS especially the Phalcon can operate well in high EW environments, and have high level anti-jamming tech.
The rest is yet to happen, although those developments will be promising.

 

[CriticalThought]

What happened to the radar getting switched off.
Akash has max tested range 25km and proposed range of 30km, while SA-3 has Max range 22km, Spyder has range 20km with Python and 50km with Derby, If it was a safe intercept it shoudlnt have been at 10km.
You really dont have any idea how IA air defence works now do you ?
Naliya is Nuclear capable base, its a prime asset, extremely well defended .
To say we will send only Scan eagle is now something idiotic , PN has full range of other drones and will likely prefer to use the newer Luna's , Scan eagles on the other hand can be launched from ships and there is now way to know where they will come from.

Just more self-reinforcing logic, that fails to account for what I have already written.

Exactly......smart drones can hug the terrain and no amount of radar coverage will be able to detect them until it's too late...

Maybe radars in the air looking down can.....but they'll have to filter the drone from the ground clutter.

The US has worked on chains of drones as long as 50 km that go undetected deep into enemy territory (in exercises).

A well planned air defence network will include automated AA guns for low altitude incursions. There would be a turkey shoot.