Pakistan successfully tests Babur 2 Cruise Missile.

[Penguin]

From both of above post my understanding is tou are advocating that agosta do not have the capability to fire babur however, i am not convinced that Pakistan will disclose a missile without having the capability to fire it ...

If my understanding of your post is incorrect kindly let me know ...

Post 187, Dec 14, 2016
Oscar said: The current subs arent meant to fire the Babur at all. Whiskey class launch systems were studied but were found to be thoroughly impractical(for the purpose) and very very noisy.
Penguin answered: Thank you. That's a very clear answer as to the status of SLCM in the PN.

So here it is @Oscar that states current subs (Agosta 70 and 90B) aren't meant to fire Babur at all. I am taking his word for it and the logical conclusion is that no currently [meaning: on Dec. 14, 2016] operational PN subs actually have received and can fire Babur [as in, have had the require fire control console(s) installed and integrated with the boat's command system]. That is pretty obvious.

It makes a lot of sense to announce the missile even if no current boats are currently operational with it, as it creates the impression, the possibility that the missile may be or actually is operational. I.e. as a bluff or to keep the opposite number guessing.

Apparently, you are unable to distinguisk between something being possible in theory (any SSK can fire a cruise missile in principle), something technically proven (e.g. a missile worked in a test, which may or may not have involved an actual submarine - we don't know this - but which shows we, the PN, have the technology) and something that is operational on a day to day basis (PNs current submarines carry and can effectively launch Babur).

 

[Mrc]

True that the first tries were attempted around 2007, but the approach was abandoned.
The event you mention happened in 2008-9, not 2006. And that event had nothing to do with Babur

US awacs picked up a missile moving from sea to inland Pakistan.... they presumed that Pakistan has tweaked harpoon ASh for land attack... presumption was wrong...

was it babur 3? I don't know... but babur would have definitely benefited from those experiments

 

[The Accountant]

Post 187, Dec 14, 2016
Oscar said: The current subs arent meant to fire the Babur at all. Whiskey class launch systems were studied but were found to be thoroughly impractical(for the purpose) and very very noisy.
Penguin answered: Thank you. That's a very clear answer as to the status of SLCM in the PN.

So here it is @Oscar that states current subs (Agosta 70 and 90B) aren't meant to fire Babur at all. I am taking his word for it and the logical conclusion is that no currently [meaning: on Dec. 14, 2016] operational PN subs actually have received and can fire Babur [as in, have had the require fire control console(s) installed and integrated with the boat's command system]. That is pretty obvious.

It makes a lot of sense to announce the missile even if no current boats are currently operational with it, as it creates the impression, the possibility that the missile may be or actually is operational. I.e. as a bluff or to keep the opposite number guessing.

Apparently, you are unable to distinguisk between something being possible in theory (any SSK can fire a cruise missile in principle), something technically proven (e.g. a missile worked in a test, which may or may not have involved an actual submarine - we don't know this - but which shows we, the PN, have the technology) and something that is operational on a day to day basis (PNs current submarines carry and can effectively launch Babur).

Thanks for the details, its clear now.

One question , if a US AWACS can pickup the missile launch and trace it in 2009 then isnt it something to worry about as babur is supposed to be stealthy and given the subsonic it has to adopt a stealthy flight profile but if US can detect it without entering our EEZ then how sure we are that Indians cannot detect it unless it is closed to target ...

Agosta-90Bs can and will fire Babur-III SLCM when its ready for induction. You don't put a test weapon on a submarine for trials. As the press release stated, a mobile underwater platform was used.

True that the first tries were attempted around 2007, but the approach was abandoned.
The event you mention happened in 2008-9, not 2006. And that event had nothing to do with Babur.

 

[SQ8]

Agosta-90Bs can and will fire Babur-III SLCM when its ready for induction. You don't put a test weapon on a submarine for trials. As the press release stated, a mobile underwater platform was used.

True that the first tries were attempted around 2007, but the approach was abandoned.
The event you mention happened in 2008-9, not 2006. And that event had nothing to do with Babur.

Not exactly- not until the tubes are changed for it

Post 187, Dec 14, 2016
Oscar said: The current subs arent meant to fire the Babur at all. Whiskey class launch systems were studied but were found to be thoroughly impractical(for the purpose) and very very noisy.
Penguin answered: Thank you. That's a very clear answer as to the status of SLCM in the PN.

So here it is @Oscar that states current subs (Agosta 70 and 90B) aren't meant to fire Babur at all. I am taking his word for it and the logical conclusion is that no currently [meaning: on Dec. 14, 2016] operational PN subs actually have received and can fire Babur [as in, have had the require fire control console(s) installed and integrated with the boat's command system]. That is pretty obvious.

It makes a lot of sense to announce the missile even if no current boats are currently operational with it, as it creates the impression, the possibility that the missile may be or actually is operational. I.e. as a bluff or to keep the opposite number guessing.

Apparently, you are unable to distinguisk between something being possible in theory (any SSK can fire a cruise missile in principle), something technically proven (e.g. a missile worked in a test, which may or may not have involved an actual submarine - we don't know this - but which shows we, the PN, have the technology) and something that is operational on a day to day basis (PNs current submarines carry and can effectively launch Babur).

The easiest way was modification of the Tubes, the dolphin class had it done for the popeye.

But so far, whatever mobile underwater platform tested the Babur- it was not the Agosta imo.

 

[The Deterrent]

Agosta 90B is known to be able to fire antiship missiles.
Is there any hard evidence to support the contention that it has actually been fitted for and given Babur?

As I have indicated before ANY SSK can in principle fire such a weapon, provided it fits the tubes and provided the sub has actually been equipped for firing it (i.e. modifications to CMS and fire control systems).

Given the state of secrecy surrounding Pakistan's special weapons programs, its hard to find any credible evidence for anything. That said, the day Pakistan Navy launches the weapon via an Agosta-90B, it will be clearly shown and stated.
Right now it is still in developmental phase, and probably will have one or two more mobile-underwater-platform launches before deployment trials.

US awacs picked up a missile moving from sea to inland Pakistan.... they presumed that Pakistan has tweaked harpoon ASh for land attack... presumption was wrong...

was it babur 3? I don't know... but babur would have definitely benefited from those experiments

Not exactly, the US didn't detect anything. Moles in the prestigious military do their job just fine.

Not exactly- not until the tubes are changed for it

Sir I'm afraid your information is a bit outdated, Babur (without capsule) was 520mm from day one. However the Babur-II sure was a bit long for the tubes, thats why we saw a reduction of range in Babur-III. So there is no need to change any tubes, the only problem was the integration with firing control systems which has probably been solved.

 

[Penguin]

Thanks for the details, its clear now.

One question , if a US AWACS can pickup the missile launch and trace it in 2009 then isnt it something to worry about as babur is supposed to be stealthy and given the subsonic it has to adopt a stealthy flight profile but if US can detect it without entering our EEZ then how sure we are that Indians cannot detect it unless it is closed to target ...

Babur is a lot like Tomahawk and YJ-62, neither of which is a particularly stealthy design.

as compared to e.g. JASSM-ER/LRASM

 

[SQ8]

Given the state of secrecy surrounding Pakistan's special weapons programs, its hard to find any credible evidence for anything. That said, the day Pakistan Navy launches the weapon via an Agosta-90B, it will be clearly shown and stated.
Right now it is still in developmental phase, and probably will have one or two more mobile-underwater-platform launches before deployment trials.

Not exactly, the US didn't detect anything. Moles in the prestigious military do their job just fine.

Sir I'm afraid your information is a bit outdated, Babur (without capsule) was 520mm from day one. However the Babur-II sure was a bit long for the tubes, thats why we saw a reduction of range in Babur-III. So there is no need to change any tubes, the only problem was the integration with firing control systems which has probably been solved.

I still think it was not the 90B that did it. We might have borrowed a platform for a bit(there was something in the area during those times). The 90Bs could fire the weapons once their refit goes through which could involve anything and everything.

On a side note, we will have a severely limited sub surface capability for the next 10 years while all the upgrades and new procurement go through.

 

[ziaulislam]

I still think it was not the 90B that did it. We might have borrowed a platform for a bit(there was something in the area during those times). The 90Bs could fire the weapons once their refit goes through which could involve anything and everything.

On a side note, we will have a severely limited sub surface capability for the next 10 years while all the upgrades and new procurement go through.

new ones are coming in 2022
we have more problems in surface fleet with no replacement in sight after refusal of 6 OHP from USA

 

[The Deterrent]

I still think it was not the 90B that did it. We might have borrowed a platform for a bit(there was something in the area during those times). The 90Bs could fire the weapons once their refit goes through which could involve anything and everything.

On a side note, we will have a severely limited sub surface capability for the next 10 years while all the upgrades and new procurement go through.

Of course it wasn't a 90B, I've maintained that since the test. The weapon was fired via an indigenously developed mobile underwater platform, exactly what the press release states it to be.

Thats true, Pakistan's second-strike capability will remain severely limited until Hangors arrive.

 

[Safriz]

Chinese testbed , type 032 also went through some changes recently.

The sail was straight previously.

 

[Yerusalem 4880 Kms]

Given the state of secrecy surrounding Pakistan's special weapons programs, its hard to find any credible evidence for anything. That said, the day Pakistan Navy launches the weapon via an Agosta-90B, it will be clearly shown and stated.
Right now it is still in developmental phase, and probably will have one or two more mobile-underwater-platform launches before deployment trials.

Not exactly, the US didn't detect anything. Moles in the prestigious military do their job just fine.

Sir I'm afraid your information is a bit outdated, Babur (without capsule) was 520mm from day one. However the Babur-II sure was a bit long for the tubes, thats why we saw a reduction of range in Babur-III. So there is no need to change any tubes, the only problem was the integration with firing control systems which has probably been solved.

For your Kind information Babur I, II and III share the same length and width.

 

[The Deterrent]

For your Kind information Babur I, II and III share the same length and width.

Oh my.
Say hi to the Israelis from me when you reach 'Yerusalem'.

 

[Yerusalem 4880 Kms]

Oh my.
Say hi to the Israelis from me when you reach 'Yerusalem'.

Yeah Sure and my gun will pay regards on behalf of you.
Any source or link to disprove my finding about the length of Babur C.M?

 

[The Deterrent]

Yeah Sure and my gun will pay regards on behalf of you.
Any source or link to disprove my finding about the length of Babur C.M?

Don't hurt yourself by the recoil while you do so, they probably don't have free healthcare for delusional people.

None at all, I give in. Babur is indeed as you say it is.

 

[Yerusalem 4880 Kms]

Don't hurt yourself by the recoil

I am not burger kidy so no worry.