Pakistan receiving alot more F-16s than ordered: AFM

[fatman17]

My own count is that we currently have 36 F-16 A/Bs total.

We have received 2+2 (not sure about the 4 being received by Aug) beyond the 32. More are to arrive.

Fatman, how did you get 4 for this year? AFAIK, we have only received 2 thus far.

I dont have any real confirmation... my info is based on available news for e.g. the former FM - Kasuri was quoted as saying that 4-6 will be delivered in the 1st half of 2007.

 

[ejaz007]

Getting these old F-16's is not a bad idea. After going through upgradations these are going to be better than A-5, Mirage-III & Mirage-V aircrafts. Also incase of sanctions these can be canibalized for spare parts.

 

[blain2]

Getting these old F-16's is not a bad idea. After going through upgradations these are going to be better than A-5, Mirage-III & Mirage-V aircrafts. Also incase of sanctions these can be canibalized for spare parts.

Agreed but I think the capability to be had with these older F-16s far exceeds anything we can muster with the three types you have mentioned. Essentially the F-16s and the JF-17s allow PAF for the first time an "all multirole" fighter capability (we no longer have aircraft suitable for only 1 or 2 types of roles). The radius of action increases exponentially for the PAF and in all aspects too (Air to Air, Air to surface, CAS, BAI etc. etc.). I think we are kidding ourselves if we think the older, MLU'd F-16s can in any way be a bad thing for PAF. Its an amazing aircraft and still does wonders in MR roles when other 4.5 gen aircraft are just starting to have this MR capability (Rafale, Gripen, Typhoon are all starting to qualify for MR roles using the exact same weapons as have been available on F-16s for the past decade or so)...as far as I am concerned, F-16 is still the king of the hill when it comes to MR and we should gobble up as many F-16s as we can get our hands on.

 

[EagleEyes]

webby,
the only reason PAF wanted the original F-16s is...
1. according to PAF requirements
2. low airframe hours/fatigue. remember they were sitting in the arizona boneyard from 92 until 05.
ofcourse they will undergo the MLU.

I see. Shouldn't the later models 25/30 be more improved than the earlier ones?

I am guessing that MLU will get the aircrafts up to Block 40 regardless of their earlier blocks, so the air frame / less hours would be the main issue?

 

[IceCold]

as far as I am concerned, F-16 is still the king of the hill when it comes to MR and we should gobble up as many F-16s as we can get our hands on.

So what about 5 to 10 years from now? When the airframe will be on the verge of its lifespan ending? Obiviously we would again need a replacement by then. So will PAF then again has to launch a programe for modernization of its fleet and that too depends upon what options do we have then, provided we are not facing sactions.
F-16 might be good today but what about the future, its like we will be at the same spot we are today. I know F-16 gives us value for our money but for today, what about the future specially when india is looking for 4.5 and 5th gen jets.
My point is today we have options but there isnt any gurantee we might have the same in five to ten years time, So why to waiste time and not induct something that could prove to be the back bone of PAF and one more point i would wana add here that the jets you mentioned Mr. Blain though i agree for now that they are going through their development phases, but in coming years they have the capability for upgradition and getting developed into a potent weapon system unlike the F-16s which for now already has and in years to come, it will have no room for upgradition and would be obselete.

 

[Majnun]

Yes, but these planes have been paid for so we should at least get them. And even now they are still a threat. With F-16s and JF-17s, the PAF will be much stronger. But are they getting the latest ones? Because in te late 80s-early 90s Pakistan paid for the top-of-the-line ones and they should get top-of-the-line ones even today.

 

[fatman17]

So what about 5 to 10 years from now? QUOTE]


I think the F-16s will remain the front-line fighter/Ground Attack FGA for many mid-size airforces until atleast 2020 as long as they keep getting upgraded.

 

[blain2]

I see. Shouldn't the later models 25/30 be more improved than the earlier ones?

I am guessing that MLU will get the aircrafts up to Block 40 regardless of their earlier blocks, so the air frame / less hours would be the main issue?

In terms of avionics on the Pakistani MLU, the aircraft would be in the same league as the blk52s that we are buying. We are getting the same radar, same ECM suite, same DL etc. etc.

The Blk25/30 models are slightly improved over blk 15. Blk40 and beyond was a major upgrade. Prior to that were minor changes (engine, weapons integration etc.)

 

[blain2]

So what about 5 to 10 years from now? When the airframe will be on the verge of its lifespan ending? Obiviously we would again need a replacement by then. So will PAF then again has to launch a programe for modernization of its fleet and that too depends upon what options do we have then, provided we are not facing sactions.
F-16 might be good today but what about the future, its like we will be at the same spot we are today. I know F-16 gives us value for our money but for today, what about the future specially when india is looking for 4.5 and 5th gen jets.
My point is today we have options but there isnt any gurantee we might have the same in five to ten years time, So why to waiste time and not induct something that could prove to be the back bone of PAF and one more point i would wana add here that the jets you mentioned Mr. Blain though i agree for now that they are going through their development phases, but in coming years they have the capability for upgradition and getting developed into a potent weapon system unlike the F-16s which for now already has and in years to come, it will have no room for upgradition and would be obselete.

What PAF is doing with the F-16s is that it will acquire low-hour airframes and upgrade them with the MLU package. That will allow the aircraft to stay current in terms of avionics well into the next two decades. The MLU is not simply an upgrade of the avionics. Its a complete overhaul of the airframe. The main point is to get Aircraft structural integrity program in place. Take a read:

The F-16s airframe has been subject to more heavy loads than was predicted in 1979. This resulted in several unpredicted hair cracks in some of the airframe's bulkheads. Before an aircraft can be offered for MLU modification, the current state of the airframe is examined in the extensive Aircraft Structural Integrity Program (PACER SLIP). In this modification program, all bulkheads of the aircraft will be examined and repaired (using the so called Cold Working method) if necessary. After PACER SLIP, the aircraft will be able to last at least another 5,000 flying hours and can complete its life expectancy of 30 years.

Note that hair cracks are not uncommon in aircraft design. To predict the acceptable number and type of cracks, the aircraft manufacturer used information that reflected the exact capabilities of the aircraft. The F-16 was designed as a light and highly maneuverable aircraft that could withstand 9G and last for a minimum of 8,000 flight hours. All data is recorded in a load spectrum that specifies the use of the aircraft (i.e. type of missions), aircraft load and predicted number of landings.

So you are essentially talking about getting about 13K hours out of the F-16 in total (you can take out the # of hours already flown from the total for the PAF F-16s).

To your point, obsolescence is a reality. F-16s will have this problem as all other aircraft do. The key is what level of obsolescence you are willing to live with. IAF in the next decade or two will not be an entirely 5th gen airforce. They will have a vast majority of the aircraft in the same league as what PAF will operate (4.5 gen). To counter that, MLU F-16s are a very good option. Keep in mind that IAF is doing the same sort of stuff on their M2Ks and Mig-29s because they also see the room for upgradation on airframes that they have already flown for quite a few years.

The F-16s coming to Pakistan are all under EDA. Pakistan only pays for the upgrades (MLU). So this is a very cost effective way of enhancing capability.
There is nothing in the market that is as affordable and gives as big a bang as the F-16 in the market (barring the Su-30 variants). Everything else (Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen) is extremely expensive and offers capability roughly in the same category as the MLU'd F-16s.

 

[fatman17]

The F-16s coming to Pakistan are all under EDA.

well i just got my copy of AFM, Dec-07 issue and it writes.....
Vipers winding down:
...if the USAF disposes off 159 F-16s by the end of 2012, what will happen to them?....and it goes on to say....however an exception may apply to Pakistan. it has been quietly reported that a few F-16C/D models are being shifted directly from USAF inventory to Pakistan.But that country, which is on record so far as having ordered 111 F-16s, will receive new build F-16C/D blk 52s directly from the Fort Worth Texas assembly plant. Pakistan has also recently taken delivery of long embargoed and awaited F-16A/B blk 15s, with two F-16s delivered in July-07. it appears to have use for a small number of second hand F-16s but is pre-dominantly re-equipping with new build warplanes that offer that "new car smell".Pakistan will probably not acquire many of the retiring F-16s as most will be the blk 25 and 30/32 aircraft. having progressed directly from blk 15 to blk 52, Pakistan will have no experience operating any of the F-16 blocks which are retiring. that is essentially the story with all 22 countries operating the F-16s. according to the Pentagon, there is not a single operator of the F-16 blk 25s.

 

[bd_wonder]

it's a shame that one of the most capable muslim countries in south asia (i'd say most capable in military affairs) has to "beg" to usa a nonmuslim antiislamic venomous nation for its equipment. pakistan bangladesh iran saudi and all muslim countries no matter what ever other factors there are should try to pool their resources.

 

[fatman17]

it's a shame that one of the most capable muslim countries in south asia (i'd say most capable in military affairs) has to "beg" to usa a nonmuslim antiislamic venomous nation for its equipment. pakistan bangladesh iran saudi and all muslim countries no matter what ever other factors there are should try to pool their resources.

where does it imply we are begging. we are paying for these transfers on the upgrade costs.

 

[khanz]

so how many f-16 will pakistan have in total when it's they get all their order and options ?

 

[fatman17]

so how many f-16 will pakistan have in total when it's they get all their order and options ?

the plan/order is for 111 aircraft before attrition (40 + 71)
breakdown:

40/40 - F-16A/B - delivered between 1980-83.
28/71 - F-16A/B - embargoed in 1998 - now being delivered.
36/36 - F-16C/D - delivery by 2010.

Total - 104 F-16A/B MLU and F-16C/D.
8 F-16A/Bs have been lost due to attrition.

Actual available 96 F-16A/B MLU and F-16C/D.

that leaves a difference of 15 a/c from the original order. could it be that this difference is being made up by these additional F-16s transfers?

 

[ahussains]

There is nothing freee for us and if they are offering us such block 25/30 or etc again it means they are just trying to throuing trash away from there storage .... and in 4 years as a front line stat they give us only 6 planes so far and they 2 are not for the combat use there airframe are low standards ... they just dealying time if in 2009 MLU start for the 38 F-16 when its going to end ... ?